dmr Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomas C King said: The hangovers from being one of the oldest institutions. Physics was taught before BScs were invented, and before they were invented Oxford didn't allow you to study hard science until you had studied a liberal art (too difficult, innit). Hence, to allow an undergrad physics degree, it has to be a BA. But, you can get an MSc in a hard science because by then you would have studied a BA (a hard science one or not). Another example: most doctorates are not in philosophy in the modern sense, but they are in the old sense. So you get a PhD, unless you do it at Oxford, in which case it's a D.Phil... Looking at modern physics, especially nuclear and astro-physics, and the associated mathematics I reckon a BA is more appropriate that a BSc (Black Art ?) ....................Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 Just now, dmr said: Looking at modern physics, especially nuclear and astro-physics, and the associated mathematics I reckon a BA is more appropriate that a BSc (Black Art ?) Maybe we don't know if it's a BA or a BSc until we open the box and ask the cat ... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas C King Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 7 minutes ago, dmr said: Looking at modern physics, especially nuclear and astro-physics, and the associated mathematics I reckon a BA is more appropriate that a BSc (Black Art ?) ....................Dave Yes, but what is art? Is a philosophical question, ask a BA. Black art? Has existed in the African content for millennia. I don't have a BA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man 'o Kent Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 18 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said: Maybe we don't know if it's a BA or a BSc until we open the box and ask the cat ... Oh! Very good! My thanks for giving me a good chuckle.. On the other hand it is worth noting that I spent many years working at one London College's Engineering Department and I can tell you that for all their brains 99% still have five thick stubby thumbs on each hand . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyG Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 On 08/01/2021 at 18:40, Rob-M said: Hopefully the OP will review the injuries and deaths from being knocked off a stern seat and being drawn through the propeller or crushed between boat and bank. How many such deaths, I think Op has got the message Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob-M Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 1 hour ago, LadyG said: How many such deaths, I think Op has got the message I don't have any stats but there has been at least two deaths in recent years where the person has been knocked off the counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyG Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) Let's try to encourage and educate. Barges can be classified down to the last T in tug (style). " Traditional " can have several different meanings. For example, the short stern on a narowboat which is a steering position, known as Trad, short for traditional. There are two other types of stern design, semi trad and cruiser stern, most are tiller steered. So the helmsman stands at the stern, but not within the arc of the tiller arm. The tiller is directly attached to the rudder. It would not be impossible to have more complex steering, hydraulics, cables and pulleys, steering wheel, but these boats were built for functionality, by local tradesmen, they are fairly basic. Edited January 12, 2021 by LadyG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koukouvagia Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 23 hours ago, doratheexplorer said: I'd love to know whether anyone has ever been knocked in by the tiller while going forwards. Also, in the situation you're highly unlikely to come into contact with the prop even if you did fall in. People fall of the stern of boats all the time, and it's mainly from things like tripping and slipping. I once saw this happen on the boat I was following. The steerer was trying to put up an umbrella in the torrential rain; the tiller suddenly veered left and overboard she went. No real harm done because there was another crew member able to control the boat and haul her aboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, koukouvagia said: I once saw this happen on the boat I was following. The steerer was trying to put up an umbrella in the torrential rain; the tiller suddenly veered left and overboard she went. No real harm done because there was another crew member able to control the boat and haul her aboard. I wonder if the advice should be "don't stand in the tiller arc" or "don't put up umbrellas while steering" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 20 hours ago, jpcdriver said: Strange things can also happen with new subjects. I graduated in Computer Science in 1982 from York, as part of one of the first coherts to be allowed to study full Computer Science (rather than in combination with another subject). I was given the choice to have BA or BSc on my degree certificate, as there was still ongoing debate as to whether it was a hard science. I chose BSc. When I was due to enroll on my second masters degree, I had the choice of two courses, both very similar at different institutions. One was an MA the other an MSc. I was very tempted to do the MA as I already have an MSc in a different subject. In the end I went for the MSc because the course was better and the institution was more presigious (helps on a CV!). It seems to me that oftentimes, universities just flip a coin... 17 hours ago, Rob-M said: I don't have any stats but there has been at least two deaths in recent years where the person has been knocked off the counter. If one of those was the Harecastle incident, it seems highly likely that it had nothing to do with the tiller. Being knocked off the counter is one thing, but it isn't necessarily caused by a swinging tiller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 There was one a couple of locks above Cropredy which was, I believe, caused by a swinging tiller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob-M Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said: When I was due to enroll on my second masters degree, I had the choice of two courses, both very similar at different institutions. One was an MA the other an MSc. I was very tempted to do the MA as I already have an MSc in a different subject. In the end I went for the MSc because the course was better and the institution was more presigious (helps on a CV!). It seems to me that oftentimes, universities just flip a coin... If one of those was the Harecastle incident, it seems highly likely that it had nothing to do with the tiller. Being knocked off the counter is one thing, but it isn't necessarily caused by a swinging tiller. I don't think I've mentioned a swinging tiller, just perching on a seat at the edge of the counter I feel puts the steerer in a dangerous position and even worse when it is someone else sat on the seat who isn't steering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebulae Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 Hm. My old boat had two seats right on the stern of a trad style boat. It was possible to pull the tiller over till the top of the rudder hit the stern and still sit on the seats. This may well be an oddity due to the design of that boat. Obviously,through tunnels and bridge holes steer from inside the hatch. Photo of our boat on Jim Stead site. Worked OK for 10 years. Boat now sold,no idea if new owner has changed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 23 hours ago, Athy said: There was one a couple of locks above Cropredy which was, I believe, caused by a swinging tiller. Varney's Lock. Woman dies in canal boat holiday accident (telegraph.co.uk) (Advert now gets in the way.) Found another newspaper report: Children see mother fall to her death as she steers canal boat | Daily Mail Online It was actually more complicated than that. It was a couple and their teenage children, I believe, experienced hirers. The husband and children were at the top gates. The children opened the paddles rather rapidly. The surge caused the boat to lurch back then forward. Whist it was going forward the husband shouted to his wife on the tiller to put it in reverse. After doing this the boat then began to go backwards on the back wave as well as the engine. It rammed the back gates and the poor lady went over the taff rail, cruiser stern. I have never seen a MAIB report. Edited January 13, 2021 by Ray T Add news report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scholar Gypsy Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Ray T said: Varney's Lock. Woman dies in canal boat holiday accident (telegraph.co.uk) (Advert now gets in the way.) I have never seen a MAIB report. Doesn't look like there was one. https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports?keywords=canal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) Just now, Scholar Gypsy said: Doesn't look like there was one. https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports?keywords=canal I wondered because the actual details would make grim reading any report has never been released. The above scenario was related to me by a waterways worker, with a more graphic description, two days after the accident. Edited January 12, 2021 by Ray T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scholar Gypsy Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, Ray T said: I wondered because the actual details would make grim reading any report has never been released. The above scenario was related to me by a waterways worker, with a more graphic description, two days after the accident. Their website says "Marine Accident Investigation Branch receives between 1500 and 1800 reports of accidents of all types and severity each year. On average this leads to 30 separate investigations being launched" which does suggest they are quite selective in deciding what to investigate - given their focus is very much on preventing future accidents (unlike, for example, an inquest). The website also implies they just investigate accidents at sea, which is clearly not always the case (eg the DUKW sinking in Liverpool). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Ray T said: Varney's Lock http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/8480943.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said: The website also implies they just investigate accidents at sea, which is clearly not always the case (eg the DUKW sinking in Liverpool). The NB sinking on the Thames, the CO generator poisoning on Windermere being but two other 'non-sea' examples Edited January 12, 2021 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scholar Gypsy Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: The NB sinking on the Thames, ... Thanks. Did you meant this one? I don't think the MAIB investigated further. http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/sb1of2012-narrowboatsinking-inadequateventsfreeboard1.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said: Thanks. Did you meant this one? I don't think the MAIB investigated further. http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/sb1of2012-narrowboatsinking-inadequateventsfreeboard1.pdf Yes - that was the one, I thought the MAIB had investigated but was obvioulsy wrong. Here is the MAIB report on the Windermere incident MAIB Report No 02/2015 - Arniston - Very Serious Marine Casualty (publishing.service.gov.uk) And a MAIB report on a Cruiser on the Ouse at York Safety warning about carbon monoxide poisoning after the loss of 2 lives on the motor cruiser Diversion - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) And a collision between a recreational boat and a mooring on the Thames Collision between rigid inflatable boat Tiger One and a mooring buoy with 4 people injured - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) Edited January 12, 2021 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H01ppy Posted January 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 Thank you to all who took the survey, I now have enough responses to continue with my project and so I have closed the survey. For all those concerned, I took Design and Technology at GCSE and came out with an 8 (which in the old grading system is an A*), so I am confident in my knowledge of the specification that the questions I asked in the survey has got me the needed information to continue with my project. As stated before, I chose this project because I already have pre-existing knowledge on canal boats, my family owns one which I have in fact sat on the roof of whilst cruising whilst being perfectly safe. I have also driven a canal boat before and have taken the boat in and out of locks competently and safely, I am fully aware of the dangers of working on a canal boat and have already referenced the safety precautions in my work. For those of you who are telling me about the deaths of people whilst using canal boats, thank you, it is definitely my intention to create a theoretical product that turns into a ‘killing seat’. That being said thank you to others for the well wishes, and advice I have already begun to incorporate some of it in my portfolio. If anyone wishes I will try to keep regular updates on how the project is going, along with final photos of the prototype in a years time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, H01ppy said: it is definitely my intention to create a theoretical product that turns into a ‘killing seat’. I hope you missed a word out of that sentence! Good luck with the project, and yes, please come back with the stages and the finished design. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetzi Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 I should think it possible to design a seat that is within the tiller arc, but with the seat above it on an arm. The tiller could then swing harmlessly underneath the seat. As long as the steerer's legs don't dangle too far backwards (a foot rest could be a good addition here). Most people's arms are little longer than their torsos so unless you have to push hard to one side or the other, I can picture that working? I tried to fill in the survey but I note it's already closed. I'm curious to see what OP comes up with and wish them well for their A levels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacet Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: The NB sinking on the Thames, the CO generator poisoning on Windermere being but two other 'non-sea' examples The Thames sinking was a PLA report http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/sb1of2012-narrowboatsinking-inadequateventsfreeboard1.pdf and not to the same standard as MAIB. Personally, I was not convinced by the finding that three persons on the aft deck reduced the freeboard by 115mm - at least, not without other help such as free water. The Drum Major is another example of an inland case investigated by MAIB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Featured Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now