Masthead light or all round white light?

[colmac]

OK, so if we are on non-tidal, inland waterways the collregs as applied to nav lights don't apply, however, if you intend transiting from these to rivers you would require said lights ? Mind you, if I was approaching a bend and heard all this horn blasting going off I would seriously wonder what was happening. I worked on deck at sea for years but have never used the collregs sound signals in 23 yrs on the cut. I am not being intentionally obtuse but, at 2/3 miles an hour I could never see the point.

[Sea Dog]

3 minutes ago, colmac said:

Mind you, if I was approaching a bend and heard all this horn blasting going off I would seriously wonder what was happening.

Which means, hopefully, that you'd take appropriate measures to ensure you don't go barrelling round the bend regardless, thus you won't be standing your vessel into potential danger or causing the same for another vessel.  I'd say that makes the sound signal an effective one.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, colmac said:

OK, so if we are on non-tidal, inland waterways the collregs as applied to nav lights don't apply, however, if you intend transiting from these to rivers you would require said lights ? 

 

The C&RT controlled waterways Lighting requirements .

Narrowboats have some exemptions but where it says 'power driven vessel', without the 'other than a narrowboat' then the rules apply in full to all powered boats.

 

 

Displaying of Lights and Visual Signals

10. (1) Subject as hereinafter provided, a power-driven vessel (other than a narrow canal boat) when under way at night shall carry –

 

(a) On or in front of the foremast, or if a vessel without a foremast then in the forepart of the vessel, and in either case at a height above the hull of not less than four feet, a visible white light so constructed as to show an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of twenty points on the compass (225°) so fixed as to show the light ten points (112½°) on each side of the vessel that is, from right ahead to two points (22½°) abaft the beam on either side; and

(b) in addition to the above light, at her stern a visible white light so constructed as to show an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of twelve points of the compass (135°) so fixed as to show the light six points (67½°) from right astern on each side of the vessel.

 

(2) A power-driven vessel, being a narrow canal boat, under way at night shall display in the forepart of the vessel, where it can best be seen and at a height above the deck or gunwhale or not less than one foot, a visible white light.

 

(3) A power-driven vessel (other than a narrow canal boat) when towing another vessel at night shall display:-

(a) Two visible white lights in a vertical line one over the other, not less than three feet apart. Each of these lights shall be of the same construction and character as the visible white light prescribed in paragraph (1) (a) of this Bye-law and one of them shall be carried in the same position as that light; and

b) at the stern a visible white light of the same construction and character as that prescribed in paragraph (1)(b) of this Bye-law.

 

(4) A vessel (other than a narrow canal boat and other than a compartment boat on the Aire and Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal, or the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation) being towed at night shall display at her stern a visble white light similar in all respects to that prescribed in paragraph (1)(b) of this Bye-law and, if more than one vessel is being towed, a similar white light shall be displayed at the stern of each vessel of the tow.

 

(5) On the Trent Navigation, the Weaver Navigation, the Aire and Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal and the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation (below Doncaster) a power-driven vessel shall in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraphs (1), (2), (3) and (4) as the case may be of this Bye-law display:-

(a) On the starboard side a visible green light so constructed as to show an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of ten points of the compass (112½°) so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to two points (22½°) abaft the beam on the starboard side.

(b) On the port side a visible red light so constructed as to show an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of ten points of the compass (112½°) so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to two points (22½°) abaft the beam on the port side.

 

(6) On the Aire and Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal and the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation:-

(a)(i) Where a composite craft consists of a compartment tug towing a train of compartment boats there shall be carried on the said tug three visible white lights in a vertical line one over the other not less than one foot apart, each of such lights being of the same construction and character as the visible white light prescribed in paragraph (1)(a) of this Bye-law and one of them being carried in the position therein prescribed.

(ii) Every other composite craft shall carry in the forward part of the leading vessel two visible white lights of the said construction and character placed horizontally athwartships not less than two feet above the deck and not less than two feet apart.

(b) The power-driven vessel of every composite craft shall carry on the starboard side a visible green light and on the port side a visible red light of the same construction and character as those prescribed in paragraphs (5)(a) and (5)(b) of this Bye-law.

(c) The last vessel of every composite craft shall carry at the stern a visible white light similar in every respect to the white light prescribed in paragraph (1)(b) of this Bye-law.

 

(7) On the Trent Navigation, the Weaver Navigation, the Aire and Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal and the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation every vessel employed to mark the position of a wreck or of any other obstruction shall exhibit where the same may best be seen, by day a green flag and by night two visible green lights, placed horizontally not less than six feet or more than twelve feet apart, of such a character as to be capable of being seen from all directions.

 

(8) On the Trent Navigation, the Weaver Navigation, the Aire and Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal and the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation every vessel aground in the fairway or mid-channel and every vessel moored at any place (including vessels comprised in a composite craft) shall by night display a visible white light of such a character as to be capable of being seen from all directions.

 

(9) Any vessel passing by day or by night through a tunnel exceeding four hundred and forty yards in length shall display in the forepart of the vessel a visible white light. 

[colmac]

So on a canal, on a narrow boat, we don't need to show nav lights other than a tunnel light ( in a tunnel ) unless we intend going on the rivers mentioned or, if navigating at night, one white light in the bow ?

[Machpoint005]

The key to it seems to be "at night". Look at the first sentence of 10(1), 10(2), 10(3) and 10(4). If you don't navigate at night, there is no requirement for navigation lights.

 

[Keeping Up]

22 minutes ago, colmac said:

So on a canal, on a narrow boat, we don't need to show nav lights other than a tunnel light ( in a tunnel ) unless we intend going on the rivers mentioned or, if navigating at night, one white light in the bow ?

Correct - and note that tunnels less than a quarter of a mile don't count.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Keeping Up

[bizzard]

Oi tink, that if the waterway your on is called a ''navigation'' like Lee & Stort you need nav lights.  red and green lights too close together look laike brown at a distance, this could mean you've had a big shock and your desparate to get to the sanny station.

Edited January 6, 2021 by bizzard

[David Mack]

On 06/01/2021 at 09:55, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Narrowboats have some exemptions but where it says 'power driven vessel', without the 'other than a narrowboat' then the rules apply in full to all powered boats.

 

So fat boats everywhere should, if moving at night, be displaying lights to the full rules.

As if that happens on the GU!

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

So fat boats everywhere should, if moving at night, be displaying lights to the full rules.

As if that happens on the GU!

 

Legally yes (but legally generally seems to be very loosely applied on the inland waterways) any vessel 7'6" or above is not a narrowboat

[Tam & Di]

The CEVNI rules applicable on continental inland waterways specifically say at 3.01.2 "When visibility conditions so require, the visual signals prescribed for use at night shall also be displayed by day". Definitions 1.01(ee) reads "The term 'reduced visibility' means conditions in which visibility is reduced owing to fog, haze, snow, rain or other reasons". Such conditions can obviously occur almost instantly with little or no warning of course, so this means in effect that all craft under way should be provided with lights as determined by their size.

 

Tam

[blackrose]

 

On 11/02/2021 at 11:15, David Mack said:

 

So fat boats everywhere should, if moving at night, be displaying lights to the full rules.

As if that happens on the GU!

 

Is that what you actually want or are you just using it as another opportunity to rant about wide boats? Every other topic ending up this way does get a bit tedious. You've got long-running dedicated threads for that! ?

 

Port and starboard lights would be a bit pointless on wide or narrow boats on the GU. It's pretty obvious which direction any boat is heading even at night.

Edited February 14, 2021 by blackrose

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

 

Is that what you actually want or are you just using it as another opportunity to rant about wide boats? Every other topic ending up this way does get a bit tedious. You've got long-running dedicated threads for that! ?

 

Port and starboard lights would be a bit pointless on wide or narrow boats on the GU. It's pretty obvious which direction any boat is heading even at night.

Not at all. Just an observation that the rules are written around wide and narrow boats, whereas common sense and practicality suggest that the rules should differ for wider and narrower canals.  And in this context I would include most of the 14ft wide waterways as narrower canals. Most craft using them are narrow, and so the practice in relation to lights (and other things) should reflect the majority of boats using those waterways. Making wide boats on the GU show different lights to those displayed by narrow boats is pointless.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Not at all. Just an observation ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 

On the same basis, should all boats on the sea display the same lights, or would it be of more use to know if the boat was 50 feet long or 500 feet long , or towing nets etc ?

 

If the lights are based on the 'size of the waterway' rather than the size of the boat, when the boat comes off the North Sea and heads up the River Humber should he be required to display different lights because it is now a narrow channel ?

[David Mack]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

On the same basis, should all boats on the sea display the same lights, or would it be of more use to know if the boat was 50 feet long or 500 feet long , or towing nets etc ?

 

If the lights are based on the 'size of the waterway' rather than the size of the boat, when the boat comes off the North Sea and heads up the River Humber should he be required to display different lights because it is now a narrow channel ?

You misunderstand me. I mean that the rules on the narrower canals should be the same for all craft. On these waterways requirements for visibility measured in miles are pointless, many narrowboats don't (can't) comply with the rules for seagoing craft, and there is no need for wide boats to do show lights different to the 7ft wide boats.

On the larger waterways I see nothing wrong with the current rules (not that I am very familiar with them).

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

many narrowboats don't (can't) comply with the rules for seagoing craft, and there is no need for wide boats to do show lights different to the 7ft wide boats.

 

I see what you are saying, but if Mike is going to fit nav lights he may as well fit the correct ones for his boat - there's no point fitting the wrong ones just to use on some canals when he is heading for the rivers where he needs the proper ones.

 

The BW/CRT canal requirements are in the byelaws I think, and bear little resemblance to COLREGS standards except for specific navigations.

 

The Bridgewater Canal require "proper" navigation lights for night cruising, and specifically state that a tunnel lamp is not acceptable as a navigation light.

[Sea Dog]

12 hours ago, David Mack said:

there is no need for wide boats to do show lights different to the 7ft wide boats.

Except that on a canal where wide boats are unusual and proper "colreg" nav lights rare, a skipper could aim to pass an oncoming vessel 4' from its midships tunnel light or all-round light (as we do in tunnels) and all would usually be well. Fat boats showing Port and Starboard lights would seem sensible.

[blackrose]

My nav lights don't comply with the Colregs as like most canal/river boats, my port, starboard and stern lights are the smaller ones for craft of less than 12m long. The masthead light will comply. The big nav lights for boats up to 20m are just a bit impractical for canal/river boats which is why most builders fit the smaller (wrong) ones on boats longer than 12m.

 

 

 

I think you've just got to do what you can reasonably and practically do to be seen at night - assuming you intend or are likely to move in low visibility conditions. If you're a pedant and want to comply with the Colregs in their entirety you might even need radar reflectors. How far are you prepared to go to comply on a boat that's likely to cross an estuary on a good day once or twice in its lifetime - or perhaps not at all? It seems like the concept of "doing what's practical" is understood by the Dept of Transport and MCA, so I don't see why that rationale wouldn't apply to nav lights too.

 

Regulation 19.2.1.7 – Radar Reflectors All ships shall have, if less then 150grt and if practicable, a radar reflector. RYA Note: The Department of Transport and the Local Regions has given a definition of “if practicable” as, “if it is possible to use a radar reflector on your boat then you must use one”. MCA guidance says that if your boat is bigger than 15m hull length, you should have a radar reflector that complies with the IMO performance standard (ie the reflector should have a radar cross section (RCS) of 10 square metres). Check with the supplier or manufacturer before you buy. If your boat is less than 15m in length, you should fit the largest radar reflector (in terms of RCS) that you can. Whatever size your boat is, you should fit the reflector according to the manufacturer’s instructions and as high as possible to maximise its effective range.

Edited February 20, 2021 by blackrose