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C&RT returns seized boat after legal action taken against them


Alan de Enfield

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10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Plenty of boats don't show a number, and a fair few don't show a name either. It's a reasonable assumption that a boat with no name, no number and no licence displayed is unlicensed, though what anyone could do about it beats me (and obviously CRT as well).

 

If C&RT wanted to do something about it they could - quite easily.

 

It is a legal requirement to display :

 

The Boat name

The Boat Registration Number

The Boat licence.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If C&RT wanted to do something about it they could - quite easily.

 

It is a legal requirement to display :

 

The Boat name

The Boat Registration Number

The Boat licence.

Leaving aside any legislation to achieve that ......

 

Unless one (or more) of the requirements are specified to a certain degree of how it is displayed (with appropriate measures to detect fraud) - still leaves you back to square one.

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3 hours ago, Athy said:

Because it is no longer required? I am not a driver, but I believe that cars no longer display a tax disc.

In my case, I like to display the "disc" on our boat so that there can be no doubt or misunderstanding.

But it is required (by law). Not comparable with car tax as there are sufficient of them to justify taking up parliamentary time but, as yet, that has not been possible for minor tweaks to the canal legislation - and there are plenty that someone might want to include. And therein lies the problem - what starts of as a one line Bill soon becomes Brexit-sized tome.

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If C&RT wanted to do something about it they could - quite easily.

 

It is a legal requirement to display :

 

The Boat name

The Boat Registration Number

The Boat licence.

How?

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27 minutes ago, StationMaster said:

Unless one (or more) of the requirements are specified to a certain degree of how it is displayed (with appropriate measures to detect fraud) - still leaves you back to square one.

5. (1) Every vessel on any canal shall have exhibited on the outside thereof so as to be clearly legible at all times at a distance of twenty yards (i) her name and such index mark and number (if any) as the Board shall have assigned to the vessel.

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

5. (1) Every vessel on any canal shall have exhibited on the outside thereof so as to be clearly legible at all times at a distance of twenty yards (i) her name and such index mark and number (if any) as the Board shall have assigned to the vessel.

Sorted, so no need to display a licence..........

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17 minutes ago, haggis said:

But, if the boat doesn't have a number, name or licence visible, how does C& RT know who to contact? 

 

haggis

They could always just drag the boat away and wait for someone to pop their head over the parapet. At that point C&RT could ask for his name and address and proof of ownership  ?

 

Tam

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2 hours ago, StationMaster said:

Because frankly it is a pointless exercise.

 

CRT don't rely on the licence to check whether a licence has been issued (if they did it is unlikely the OP problem wouldn't have arisen).

 

CRT need to get their house in order over this.

 

Oh and a PS - I could supply a paper licence to anyone for less than a quid plus postage................

Be careful what you offer.

CRT supply the licence in a crap pdf format that always needs a bit of resizing/messing etc. to get it right. Its a fag for me to get the printer out and untangle the cables etc etc so a £ for somebody else to do it is very tempting. ?

 

Also quote for:

Adding some colour to make it look like a proper licence

Removing the naff very low resolution CRT logo and replacing with a proper "British Waterways" logo

Laminating so it does not go soggy after the first bit of window condensation.

 

You might have a viable business ?

 

...............Dave

 

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

CW9 6FW

(Between the T&M and the River Witham near the village of Anderton)

Seeing as how there is an element of pedantry going on here I need to question whether you really mean the River Witham? I thought the Witham connected with the Fossdyke in Lincolnshire and is nowhere near the village of Anderton (or the T&M).

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8 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Seeing as how there is an element of pedantry going on here I need to question whether you really mean the River Witham? I thought the Witham connected with the Fossdyke in Lincolnshire and is nowhere near the village of Anderton (or the T&M).

 

You are absolutely correct - it should be the Weaver.

Got the Witham in mind as was there yesterday.

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42 minutes ago, dmr said:

Be careful what you offer.

CRT supply the licence in a crap pdf format that always needs a bit of resizing/messing etc 

 

...............Dave

 

I just hit print here at home and it comes out fine

21 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Seeing as how there is an element of pedantry going on here I need to question whether you really mean the River Witham? I thought the Witham connected with the Fossdyke in Lincolnshire and is nowhere near the village of Anderton (or the T&M).

No wonder I don't know where it is with those sort of directions

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On 31/12/2020 at 08:51, Alan de Enfield said:

In the course of assisting Mr Buga, the NBTA identified a number of defects in CRT’s online licensing system.  Mr Buga applied online for a 12 months Rivers Only licence, paid for it, and was provided with a correct receipt for the licence. However, the CaRT online licensing system recorded this as a six months Standard Canal & River Licence, which happened to be the same price. This occurred twice.  This discrepancy was central to CRT’s decision to seize the boat, as CRT’s computer system wrongly flagged the boat as unlicensed when in fact the licence had six more months to run.

 

This appears to be a systemic problem with the CRT online licensing system. The NBTA advises boaters to check that the licence that they bought and received a receipt for is the same as the licence recorded on their CRT online licensing account.

Any statement made by the NBTA, I take with a very large pinch of salt. They are by nature a group that will jump in at the last minuite if it suits it' aims. All to offen they are in background until that time, pulling strings. They claim to represents continuous cruisers whose home is a boat. But in truth the only people they represent is the freeloader, the chancer, the continuous moorer, the something for nothing group, They aims are simple 'To make the cost of enforcement so costly and time consuming that the navagtion authorities give up'. They belive that the rules don't apply to their members and that they can 'Moor where they like, When They like, for as long as they like'  

 

Take above the NBTA claim that the 12 month river licence is the same as the six month river licence this is not the case. A simple check shows that the 6 month river licence cost is about 40 percent less than the 12 month River licence.

 

A few years ago when the Middle Level bill was going through Westminter, Members of NBTA demanded that I redrawn my letter of support for the Middle Level Bill. Which I refuse to do. As a result damage was done to my boat, I was attacked when walking home from the station, which was a bad idea for them as they come off worst. As for the boat, the side had to be repainted and portholes replaced.     

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14 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

 

Any statement made by the NBTA, I take with a very large pinch of salt. They are by nature a group that will jump in at the last minuite if it suits it' aims. All to offen they are in background until that time, pulling strings. They claim to represents continuous cruisers whose home is a boat. But in truth the only people they represent is the freeloader, the chancer, the continuous moorer, the something for nothing group, They aims are simple 'To make the cost of enforcement so costly and time consuming that the navagtion authorities give up'. They belive that the rules don't apply to their members and that they can 'Moor where they like, When They like, for as long as they like'  

 

Take above the NBTA claim that the 12 month river licence is the same as the six month river licence this is not the case. A simple check shows that the 6 month river licence cost is about 40 percent less than the 12 month River licence.

 

A few years ago when the Middle Level bill was going through Westminter, Members of NBTA demanded that I redrawn my letter of support for the Middle Level Bill. Which I refuse to do. As a result damage was done to my boat, I was attacked when walking home from the station, which was a bad idea for them as they come off worst. As for the boat, the side had to be repainted and portholes replaced.     

 

You have the 'numbers' spot-on.

 

By law (1971 British Waterways Act, Part II section 7(1) the Pleasure Boat Certificate (not Licence) for every boat used on a River Waterway  MUST be priced at 60% of the cost of a Canal & River licence for the equivalent sized boat.

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49 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

Take above the NBTA claim that the 12 month river licence is the same as the six month river licence this is not the case.

 

This would be more useful if you read the words you seem to have missed out: "Standard Canal and"

 

The OP states that the 12 month Rivers Only licence is the same price as the 6 month Standard Canal and River licence, which is true.

 

Mr Buga applied online for a 12 months Rivers Only licence, paid for it, and was provided with a correct receipt for the licence. However, the CaRT online licensing system recorded this as a six months Standard Canal & River Licence, which happened to be the same price. 

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I haven't checked, but I know that a 12 month Rivers Only licence is 60% of the cost of the equivalent Canals and Rivers licence. It also seemed to me very likely that a 6 month Canal and Rivers licence would be priced at 60% of the equivalent 12 month licence, meaning that a 6 month Canal and Rivers licence could indeed be priced the same as a 12 month Rivers Only licence for the same boat. Which would suggest that the licence issuing error alleged to have happened in this case is plausible.

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8 hours ago, haggis said:

But, if the boat doesn't have a number, name or licence visible, how does C& RT know who to contact? 

 

haggis

If CRT knows who owns the boat then they contact that person. If they don't, they post notices on the boat advising that the boat must display a name, index number and licence, and setting out the consequences of non-compliance. Repeat a couple of times at monthly intervals, and if the owner doesn't remedy the breaches, or even get in touch, then they are clear to remove the boat. A de E can quote chapter and verse but I'm pretty sure CRT already have the powers to do this.

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8 hours ago, David Mack said:

If CRT knows who owns the boat then they contact that person. If they don't, they post notices on the boat advising that the boat must display a name, index number and licence, and setting out the consequences of non-compliance. Repeat a couple of times at monthly intervals, and if the owner doesn't remedy the breaches, or even get in touch, then they are clear to remove the boat. A de E can quote chapter and verse but I'm pretty sure CRT already have the powers to do this.

The process (which includes an unknown owner)

 

 

 

Section 8 process page 1 of 13.jpg

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