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VAT and boats returning to UK after 31/12/20


Phoenix_V

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Next week its 2021, the vote taken to leave the eu was 2016, how long does it take to sort your life out? the best part of four and a half years is long enough. Just hanging about and not dealing with it and hoping it will go away is why some people have ended up in this position.

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6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Next week its 2021, the vote taken to leave the eu was 2016, how long does it take to sort your life out?

How on God's Earth does one 'sort thei life out' when the government don't publish any information (or know) in advance on what will be needed to sort one's life out? Similarly for business — it's all well and good telling businesses they need to prepare for Brexit, but it's pretty 'ing hard to do when no one can tell you what specifically you need to do to prepare for Brexit.

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7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Next week its 2021, the vote taken to leave the eu was 2016, how long does it take to sort your life out? the best part of four and a half years is long enough. Just hanging about and not dealing with it and hoping it will go away is why some people have ended up in this position.

 

A bit harsh Tim.

 

We didn't know what the final agreement was until Boxing Day!

 

That said, both the VAT thing and the 90 day stay thing have been known about for a while now.

 

 

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Just now, tehmarks said:

How on God's Earth does one 'sort thei life out' when the government don't publish any information (or know) in advance on what will be needed to sort one's life out? Similarly for business — it's all well and good telling businesses they need to prepare for Brexit, but it's pretty 'ing hard to do when no one can tell you what specifically you need to do to prepare for Brexit.

By getting your act together. If I had a boat in europe in summer of 2016 long before now I would have sold/relocated it not waited best part of five years until my back was against the wall.

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

A bit harsh Tim.

 

We didn't know what the final agreement was until Boxing Day!

 

That said, both the VAT thing and the 90 day stay thing have been known about for a while now.

 

 

Precisely my point old bean. Thats why you plan for the worst and hope for the best, not just sit on your hands and hope against hope.

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4 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

I might be missing the point here, but if, as he says in the article, the yacht was bought in Britain then surely he's already paid the correct taxes? 

 

If I take my car abroad then come back, I don't have to pay vat to get it back in the country...!

Without looking at the 'rules' It only applies if it has been outside of the UK for X (a number) of years.

 

All of the details were announced months ago and there was a very detailed thread on here. Quite heated at times as a couple of forum members have boats on the continent.

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This is all a problem created by the UK government which could easily be fixed by them at the stroke of a pen if they could be bothered.

 

AFAIK (can anyone confirm this?) there's no similar problem for live-aboard boats owned by EU citizens which are stationed outside the EU, so there's no reason there should be a problem for UK boaters -- except government incompetence. After all we're now a sovereign state so we can do what we want with VAT regulations...

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3 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

I might be missing the point here, but if, as he says in the article, the yacht was bought in Britain then surely he's already paid the correct taxes? 

 

If I take my car abroad then come back, I don't have to pay vat to get it back in the country...!

 

Yes, and if he brings the boat back to the UK in the next year he won't need to pay UK VAT on it.  If he keeps the boat in the EU and/or sells it there he won't need to pay EU VAT on it again.

 

After the grace period though, if he chooses to export the boat from the EU to the UK he will have to pay import VAT on it.

 

It's a new rule for boats.

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2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Precisely my point old bean. Thats why you plan for the worst and hope for the best, not just sit on your hands and hope against hope.

Let me just fill you in on the realities in the real world, from my little corner of it. The entire touring music industry in this country has just been decimated. The trade agreement, negotiated six days before exiting the union come what may, has made European touring in the live music industry financially unviable and logistically impossible for all but the largest artists. Planning and mitigation in this instance is impossible when you don't know what visas your touring crew will need, whether they'll need visas, what paperwork the production needs, whether carnets will be required, etc. If this had happened in any other year, we'd see touring productions literally stranded, crew and all.

 

If you base a plan on substanceless crap, it will be about as useful as substanceless crap.

 

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9 minutes ago, tehmarks said:

Let me just fill you in on the realities in the real world, from my little corner of it. The entire touring music industry in this country has just been decimated. The trade agreement, negotiated six days before exiting the union come what may, has made European touring in the live music industry financially unviable and logistically impossible for all but the largest artists. Planning and mitigation in this instance is impossible when you don't know what visas your touring crew will need, whether they'll need visas, what paperwork the production needs, whether carnets will be required, etc. If this had happened in any other year, we'd see touring productions literally stranded, crew and all.

 

If you base a plan on substanceless crap, it will be about as useful as substanceless crap.

 

I guess thats an even smaller (money contributing) market than fishing so, of little concern.

 

What has the most effect on the majority of people, that is what is considered and acted upon.

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9 minutes ago, tehmarks said:

Let me just fill you in on the realities in the real world, from my little corner of it. The entire touring music industry in this country has just been decimated. The trade agreement, negotiated six days before exiting the union come what may, has made European touring in the live music industry financially unviable and logistically impossible for all but the largest artists. Planning and mitigation in this instance is impossible when you don't know what visas your touring crew will need, whether they'll need visas, what paperwork the production needs, whether carnets will be required, etc. If this had happened in any other year, we'd see touring productions literally stranded, crew and all.

 

If you base a plan on substanceless crap, it will be about as useful as substanceless crap.

 

You're missing the point -- this is a negative consequence of Brexit as implemented by our government, and in some people's minds any problems with this must be somebody else's fault -- if not the EU's, then UK boaters who are stupid enough to live there...

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess thats an even smaller (money contributing) market than fishing so, of little concern.

£5.5 billion for the music industry as a whole 

Over £1billion for the UK touring industry so more than fishing and many many more people work in touring than fishing.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess thats an even smaller (money contributing) market than fishing so, of little concern.

 

What has the most effect on the majority of people, that is what is considered and acted upon.

I think you'll find that the UK music/touring industry is bigger than fishing, is seen as a leader in its field, and employs a lot more people -- I know quite a few musicians and they've basically written off any idea of touring in the EU until/unless this changes.

 

Which in some cases means they will have to stop playing and find another way of living because they can't make a living just in the UK, it's too small -- a terrible waste of talent ?

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3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

£5.5 billion for the music industry as a whole 

Over £1billion for the UK touring industry so more than fishing and many many more people work in touring than fishing.

 

 

I stand corrected.

 

I have never even heard of the UK Touring industry - a failing on my part.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess thats an even smaller (money contributing) market than fishing so, of little concern.

 

What has the most effect on the majority of people, that is what is considered and acted upon.

That's not the point I was making. @mrsmelly seems to be under the misapprehension that you can plan for abstract and unknown outcomes in a meaningful way. My point is that you can't draw up a meaningful plan without meaningful information, because it will be so vague as to be useless. Planning doesn't just end at pondering the abstract concepts; it naturally leads on to thinking in detail and developing new processes. How do you develop a new process for something completely unknown? How do you respond to insistent government messaging of 'make sure you prepae for Brexit', when the government can't tell you what you might actually need to do, in concrete terms, to prepare for Brexit?

This principle applies to anything you may want to make a plan for, whether it be business, climbing a mountain, launching a ilitary operation, whatever. 'We're going to climb a remote mountain in th Himalaya. We will not look at the mountain before setting foot on it, we don't have any maps and we don't know anything about the approach. The worst-case scenario is that we might climb a face which avalanches ad kills us all. We will prepare for this by....taking a probe and spade!?'.

 

I don't undertstand how anyone who lives in the real world can fail to see the problem here.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I stand corrected.

 

I have never even heard of the UK Touring industry - a failing on my part.

It gave me and others on here a very good living for the whole of my working life.

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6 minutes ago, Loddon said:

£5.5 billion for the music industry as a whole 

Over £1billion for the UK touring industry so more than fishing and many many more people work in touring than fishing.

 

 

 

OK. I've tried to increase my knowledge by looking at some info on the subject.

 

It seems that this is the total turnover of the industry, of which the vast majority appears to be generated in the UK at festivals etc etc.

 

One assumes that Brexit will have little effect on the UK 'music industry' and that the EU part of the £1.1m is not a significant percentage.

 

According to the figures, the 'live music' generated by the UK which is "exported" is £80m (UK music statistics, www.statistica.com

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41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

OK. I've tried to increase my knowledge by looking at some info on the subject.

 

It seems that this is the total turnover of the industry, of which the vast majority appears to be generated in the UK at festivals etc etc.

 

One assumes that Brexit will have little effect on the UK 'music industry' and that the EU part of the £1.1m is not a significant percentage.

 

According to the figures, the 'live music' generated by the UK which is "exported" is £80m (UK music statistics, www.statistica.com

I think you need to find the correct numbers -- many (most?) "touring" musicians make a big part of their income touring (the clue's in the name...) in Europe because it's a much bigger market with more gigs than the UK and used to be trivially easy and cheap to do. This is the case in many musical genres and not just for the big acts, it also applies to classical musicians and the folk world which I know very well.

 

Touring outside the EU in the USA and beyond was always much more painful and expensive because of carnets, permits, visas etc so mostly only huge expensive acts did it, for smaller acts (which make up a large part of the industry, especially musicians) it wasn't worth the hassle and cost -- every instrument and piece of equipment needs an expensive carnet and documents for each non-EU country to avoid duty/taxes.

 

Now the EU falls into the same category the impact on a lot of musicians will be massive and often life-changing -- and this is coming first-hand from the ones I know and talk to, not some badly-researched article on the web.

 

Perhaps people should actually talk to those whose lives will be impacted by this idiocy instead of making wrong assumptions?

47 minutes ago, tehmarks said:

That's not the point I was making. @mrsmelly seems to be under the misapprehension that you can plan for abstract and unknown outcomes in a meaningful way. My point is that you can't draw up a meaningful plan without meaningful information, because it will be so vague as to be useless. Planning doesn't just end at pondering the abstract concepts; it naturally leads on to thinking in detail and developing new processes. How do you develop a new process for something completely unknown? How do you respond to insistent government messaging of 'make sure you prepae for Brexit', when the government can't tell you what you might actually need to do, in concrete terms, to prepare for Brexit?

This principle applies to anything you may want to make a plan for, whether it be business, climbing a mountain, launching a ilitary operation, whatever. 'We're going to climb a remote mountain in th Himalaya. We will not look at the mountain before setting foot on it, we don't have any maps and we don't know anything about the approach. The worst-case scenario is that we might climb a face which avalanches ad kills us all. We will prepare for this by....taking a probe and spade!?'.

 

I don't undertstand how anyone who lives in the real world can fail to see the problem here.

Because the sunlit Brexit uplands are not the real world?

Edited by IanD
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32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

OK. I've tried to increase my knowledge by looking at some info on the subject.

 

It seems that this is the total turnover of the industry, of which the vast majority appears to be generated in the UK at festivals etc etc.

 

One assumes that Brexit will have little effect on the UK 'music industry' and that the EU part of the £1.1m is not a significant percentage.

 

According to the figures, the 'live music' generated by the UK which is "exported" is £80m (UK music statistics, www.statistica.com

It's impossible to quantify accurately, but one also has to remembering that touring music productions are a small subset of the whole industry. A good number of European corporate events are supplied by British companies, for example. I've spent a reasonable amount of my working time in Europe and further afield, working for British clients. At a stroke, a huge amount of work has been wiped out and made impossible for a large number of UK-based freelancers and production companies. Some of the most notable productions the world over originate in this country. The number of people who will feel a very real effect on their bottom line and viability as a freelancer or small business is huge. I'd proffer that it's more significant than Nissan closing their Sunderland plant, for an example that everyone should be able to digest.

 

But that's not the point that I was originally making; it's a different conversation entirely.

Edited by tehmarks
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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Next week its 2021, the vote taken to leave the eu was 2016, how long does it take to sort your life out? the best part of four and a half years is long enough. Just hanging about and not dealing with it and hoping it will go away is why some people have ended up in this position.

OK I will rise to the bait.

The govt do not have to impose this charge. They can do it because we are leaving the EU but they do not have to.

Up until October they were leading us (the RYA) to believe that there would be exemptions for private  boats under the same ownership returning to the UK.

Then they changed their mind.

Personally I am in no rush to return, I am enjoying my boating  on the continent.

When I decide to return (or get too old) I shall sell the boat and buy another one in the UK they will not get a penny out of me. I shall be rather sad as I spent some years fitting out the current boat and am rather attached to it, I had assumed I would keep it for many years to come but thats life. I imagine most other people will do the same. They will raise very little money through this it is a nasty vindictive stupid action from a nasty vindictive government.

 

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All the above is but a tiny, tiny, tiny tip of a very big iceberg with so much more to be revealed in the future. The saddest thing I see is that a significant proportion of those who voted to leave the EU will not be around to experience the consequences.

(A 74 year old ( next week) remainer)

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I don't think it's vindictive  it's just stupid. Rather like spending months arguing about fish, finally virtually backing down completely as we all knew they would, and not bothering with a deal on financial services, which is more or less all this country makes any money from (including most of the cabinet, but they've moved most of their stuff abroad already.) The EU is happy with the trade deal, as it makes a stack more money out of trade with us than we do with them  - we've run a thundering great deficit for years. So not vindictive or nasty, just uncaring and incompetent. However, I don't expect many expats voted for Corbyn in the last election, so there you go.

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