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21 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

This thread has caused me some concern....actually raised a few questions....

 

I would like to know if there are any owners out there who use their narrowboats, in what ever way they wish, and have no real worries about batteries.

I refer to the people who start engines, switch on lights and other equipment and do not suffer endless problems with power storage or consumption.

 

Reason for the question is that having read many threads I find that as soon as Batteries or more specifically, charging thereof, is mentioned, then the 'posse' fly into action with all manner of 'recommendations' as to what is best.

I understand that there are always many ways of doing things and some may suit more than others, similarly there is always room for improvement where necessary.

 

However, I am a firm believer in the 'if it aint broke....' theory.

 

The OP asked a fairly simple question, albeit with added criteria, but it seems he was interested in information as to the viability of improving his set up.

It would appear that three pages later, not only was his question and the way he asked it wrong, in fact his entire set up was in question.

 

So back to my question, is there anyone who has a boat that starts and goes, provides adequate lighting and power, all with a simple engine/alternator/battery and maybe solar input set up, all without having to know things like voltages to two decimal places at all stages ?

Getting the electric right is perhaps the most difficult bit of off grid liveaboard boating. I expect many people ignore all this stuff here and just get on with it, but then they likely end up replacing batteries every year and running a nasty petrol generator on the towpath for many hours everyday. I want to have a reasonable (but not excessive) amount of leccy available, only run the engine every other day and not use a generator, and not be replacing batteries every year. With just a little bit of thought and technology its quite easy to do, and probable easier than talking about it on a forum  ?

 

.............Dave

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34 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

This thread has caused me some concern....actually raised a few questions....

 

I would like to know if there are any owners out there who use their narrowboats, in what ever way they wish, and have no real worries about batteries.

I refer to the people who start engines, switch on lights and other equipment and do not suffer endless problems with power storage or consumption.

 

Reason for the question is that having read many threads I find that as soon as Batteries or more specifically, charging thereof, is mentioned, then the 'posse' fly into action with all manner of 'recommendations' as to what is best.

I understand that there are always many ways of doing things and some may suit more than others, similarly there is always room for improvement where necessary.

 

However, I am a firm believer in the 'if it aint broke....' theory.

 

The OP asked a fairly simple question, albeit with added criteria, but it seems he was interested in information as to the viability of improving his set up.

It would appear that three pages later, not only was his question and the way he asked it wrong, in fact his entire set up was in question.

 

So back to my question, is there anyone who has a boat that starts and goes, provides adequate lighting and power, all with a simple engine/alternator/battery and maybe solar input set up, all without having to know things like voltages to two decimal places at all stages ?

 

1. I don't think anyone questioned his entire setup. What was questioned was if what he proposed would do what he hoped and his understanding of the ways things tends to work.

 

2. If you don't want to bother with a bit of learning, research and sufficient monitoring plus the indicated action then you can go your happy way for a time, how long I don't know, but for a time - be it a week, a few weeks, a few months or even a year or two. But eventually your lack of interest in the batteries and charging will start to cost you.

 

If you do take an interest and act in the way indicated you can have many years of problem free boating. As I keep saying I got over six years from 3 x 110 Ah Exide domestic batteries and the only problem was when the yard left the master switch on and the radio playing. That is with no extra add ons but with 65 and several year later another 100 watts of solar power. Admittedly this was on a holiday boat but during the long summer cruises it was as good as a liveaboard. Compressor 12v fridge, TV, car radio, and computer/phone charging as required. The only battery "monitors"  were a digital voltmeter and an accurate analogue ammeter plus the knowledge of how to use them. The battery bank size, alternator size and the likely daily electricity consumption were all used to decide on the optimum bank size.

 

3. You can throw as much money as you like at a lack of knowledge, understanding, and a poorly designed system and you will still have problems. Those problems need identifying and solving. the way to solve them will vary but most people will probably want to solve them for the minimum expenditure.

 

Back to the OP, I think a number of us here felt his approach to what he perceived as a problem was not likely to give the results he wanted and also the perceived problem was very unlikely to be a problem in the real world.

 

EDITED TO ADD - no battery charger or land line.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Providing its not on one of its 10 to 20 minute "rest" period running on the alternator regulator. You may have modified your alternator to leave all regulation to the Adverk but that is not the typical installation. Just because you can see more amps on the ammeter does not mean its all going into chemical change, some may well be wasted in gassing and more in heating the battery.  I suspect @nicknorman's modified regulator that does not start regulating voltage too early in the charge may do almost as well as an Adverk. By the way if 14.8 volts is vital you could fit a lower voltage regulator plus diode.

 

The Adverc will not do the regulation as defined by the OP at the start of his topic but other make  seem more flexible.

The Adverc (lomg) rest period can be a pain and I am not convinced its really required. I am also not totally sure about the votage cycling but I charge at 14.8 and don't need to put too much water in so maybe Adverc have got this right.  My alternator is a modern Iskra but its only 14 or maybe 14.4 so does not conflict with the Adverc cycling.

 

The Adverc is far from perfect but probably the best of a bad lot.

 

The Adverc does battery sensing, temperature compensation and much tighter regulation, with accurate voltage selection so I think is much much better than a diode.

I have also put the voltage regulation preset on the outside of the case so I can do an equalisation directly from the alternator.

 

Off grid liveaboard boating in Winter really is very very different to summer cruising, it came as a very unpleasant shock to me, in fact if you look back at forum posts of ten years ago you can see what troubles I had ?.

 

............Dave

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I had a fancy Sterling digital controller,  but found that despite the blueb saying it detected the charge state initially and charged accordingly,  it always dropped into float after the same time (and too early).

I replaced the Iskra 14.0V regulator with a 14 6V one (£15 on ebay) and reckon I  get a better charge than with the Sterling.  I've got a fairly good idea of what is going on, with various ammeters and voltmeters.  Although I don't always leave the boat with the batteries fully charged,  I reckon to get about three years out of 4 x 110 basic batteries.  I could probably go another year or more if I had to. This was after fitting 200W of solar panels which would top up the batteries in the 3 or 4 days I was away for much of the year.

We use a fair bit of power with fridge, largish tv, computer and phone charging,  and I try and avoid the batteries going below about 12.5V.

 

This seems to fit with what Gibbo was saying 10 or 15 years ago.  But what the hell, it works for me.

Edited by dor
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1 hour ago, dor said:

I had a fancy Sterling digital controller,  but found that despite the blueb saying it detected the charge state initially and charged accordingly,  it always dropped into float after the same time (and too early).

I replaced the Iskra 14.0V regulator with a 14 6V one (£15 on ebay) and reckon I  get a better charge than with the Sterling.  I've got a fairly good idea of what is going on, with various ammeters and voltmeters.  Although I don't always leave the boat with the batteries fully charged,  I reckon to get about three years out of 4 x 110 basic batteries.  I could probably go another year or more if I had to. This was after fitting 200W of solar panels which would top up the batteries in the 3 or 4 days I was away for much of the year.

We use a fair bit of power with fridge, largish tv, computer and phone charging,  and I try and avoid the batteries going below about 14.5V.

 

This seems to fit with what Gibbo was saying 10 or 15 years ago.  But what the hell, it works for me.

I hope you mean you don't let the batteries go  below 12.5, they would be below 14.5 within seconds/minutes of turning the charge off.

 

It works for me as well except my alternator was a Paris-Rhone. 70 amp with a 14.5 volt regulator.

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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I hope you mean you don't let the batteries go  below 12.5, they would be below 14.5 within seconds/minutes of turning the charge off.

 

It works for me as well except my alternator was a Paris-Rhone. 70 amp with a 14.5 volt regulator.

Yes of course!   My mistake, 12.5V is my personal "minimum voltage" although it sometimes goes down to 12.3 at the end of an evening if I haven't run the engine for a day, in winter, but usually recovers a bit by the morning.

 

Thank you for pointing out my silly error (I've edited the original).

Edited by dor
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Just now, dor said:

Yes of course!   My mistake, 12.5V is my personal "minimum voltage" although it sometimes goes down to 12.3 at the end of an evening if I haven't run the engine for a day, in winter.

 

Thank you for pointing out my silly error.

With that regime I would expect you to get more than three years out of a bank unless you are buying the very cheapest. But if you are it could still be a cost effective choice.

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14 hours ago, MarkH2159 said:

This thread has caused me some concern....actually raised a few questions....

 

I would like to know if there are any owners out there who use their narrowboats, in what ever way they wish, and have no real worries about batteries.

I refer to the people who start engines, switch on lights and other equipment and do not suffer endless problems with power storage or consumption.

 

Reason for the question is that having read many threads I find that as soon as Batteries or more specifically, charging thereof, is mentioned, then the 'posse' fly into action with all manner of 'recommendations' as to what is best.

I understand that there are always many ways of doing things and some may suit more than others, similarly there is always room for improvement where necessary.

 

However, I am a firm believer in the 'if it aint broke....' theory.

 

The OP asked a fairly simple question, albeit with added criteria, but it seems he was interested in information as to the viability of improving his set up.

It would appear that three pages later, not only was his question and the way he asked it wrong, in fact his entire set up was in question.

 

So back to my question, is there anyone who has a boat that starts and goes, provides adequate lighting and power, all with a simple engine/alternator/battery and maybe solar input set up, all without having to know things like voltages to two decimal places at all stages ?

Yes, I use my boat for about half the year, the rest of the time it is on shore-power.

 

It "starts and goes, provides adequate lighting and power, all with a simple engine/alternator/battery and solar input set up" and I don't even know what ancillaries or set-up it has.

 

But I had to replace my batteries in January this year (they were boiling) so maybe I should learn more about the subject.  I wouldn't want to replace them every year but if it were every two years (say) then I would do this rather than get obsessed about the details.

 

I completely understand that many on the forum would disagree with my approach, I'm a bit conflicted about it myself!

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37 minutes ago, frahkn said:

Yes, I use my boat for about half the year, the rest of the time it is on shore-power.

 

It "starts and goes, provides adequate lighting and power, all with a simple engine/alternator/battery and solar input set up" and I don't even know what ancillaries or set-up it has.

 

But I had to replace my batteries in January this year (they were boiling) so maybe I should learn more about the subject.  I wouldn't want to replace them every year but if it were every two years (say) then I would do this rather than get obsessed about the details.

 

I completely understand that many on the forum would disagree with my approach, I'm a bit conflicted about it myself!

Assuming a reasonably well designed and working batteries and charging system.

 

Unless you are doing short days cruising or only moving every few days (over discharging) when away from shore power then I don't see why you should get less than two year's life out of yor batteries and its perfectly possible you 2ill get three or more.

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  • 5 months later...

I've recently completed a "nav panel" in my wheelhouse comprising a number of 12v item: 

* GPS Chartplotter,  

* DSC/AIS VHF transceiver,

* Horn

* a 4-element console with digital voltmeter, cigar-lighter sockets and 2 USB ports.

 

All items are individually fused, and the circuit has a dual pole switch (top left) to isolate the panel. Power is supplied via a previously unused 24v cable marked fed from the main consumer unit. The 24v current is converted to 12v using a solid-state converter.

 

I am glad to say my wiring was faultless and everything works fine; but every third time or so when I turn the isolation switch, it trips the consumer unit. When I flick it back on, all is well. I presume that the occasional tripping may be due to a power surge or spike when the system is powered up. 

 

Is it possible to modify the circuit with a diode or capacitor or similar to smooth out the spike? It's only a minor irritation, and once powered up, all seems to be well, but I wouldn't want the system to trip at a vital moment. (The photo of the wiring underneath was taken before I fitted the horn button and the isolation switch).

 

Any ideas, please?

 

 

20210605_190452 copy.jpg

20210522_183442 copy.jpg

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Is this a mains domestic style RCD that is being used at 24V? If so, they aren't expensive, so worth replacing it with one of equal trip current. See if that solves the problem. How close are the combined currents of all the bits of kit to the rated trip current? Can you measure it? Do you have a clamp meter? Could be an inrush current, but I don't see a big inductive load in the list of items you gave.

Your wiring is neater than mine!

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Is this a mains domestic style RCD that is being used at 24V? If so, they aren't expensive, so worth replacing it with one of equal trip current. See if that solves the problem. How close are the combined currents of all the bits of kit to the rated trip current? Can you measure it? Do you have a clamp meter? Could be an inrush current, but I don't see a big inductive load in the list of items you gave.

I shall investigate the first point, but the tripping is not due to any short circuit. (The  central fuse panel was installed before I bought the boat. it's possible it's a 240v unit). The maximum amperage of the converter is about 15A, but even using the horn and the radio at 25W would still be consuming less than 15A, I reckon.

 

Thanks for your contribution.

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47 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is that a fuse box (with torpedo porcelain fuses) between the plotter and the cigarette lighter sockets.

 

If so, they are terribly unreliable, ideally replace it with a more modern fuse system.

If not - ignore the suggestion.

Look like blade fuses to.me.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I agree not much sign of an inductive load but what about inrush current into capacitors?

Yes, that is possible. Perhaps there to smooth the output of the DC-DC converter, as well as in other bits of kit. If it is an RCD that is tripping, then using a slow blow fuse of the same continuous current rating instead would get round this, while still protecting the wiring from faults.

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45 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Yes, that is possible. Perhaps there to smooth the output of the DC-DC converter, as well as in other bits of kit. If it is an RCD that is tripping, then using a slow blow fuse of the same continuous current rating instead would get round this, while still protecting the wiring from faults.

Some D.C. converters have a large in-rush current, I would use a fuse/circuit breaker that is 150% of full load current to avoid nuisance fails - this assumes the wiring is safe at 150% of full load

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4 hours ago, Trevor Lyons said:

I've recently completed a "nav panel" in my wheelhouse comprising a number of 12v item: 

* GPS Chartplotter,  

* DSC/AIS VHF transceiver,

* Horn

* a 4-element console with digital voltmeter, cigar-lighter sockets and 2 USB ports.

 

All items are individually fused, and the circuit has a dual pole switch (top left) to isolate the panel. Power is supplied via a previously unused 24v cable marked fed from the main consumer unit. The 24v current is converted to 12v using a solid-state converter.

 

I am glad to say my wiring was faultless and everything works fine; but every third time or so when I turn the isolation switch, it trips the consumer unit. When I flick it back on, all is well. I presume that the occasional tripping may be due to a power surge or spike when the system is powered up. 

 

Is it possible to modify the circuit with a diode or capacitor or similar to smooth out the spike? It's only a minor irritation, and once powered up, all seems to be well, but I wouldn't want the system to trip at a vital moment. (The photo of the wiring underneath was taken before I fitted the horn button and the isolation switch).

 

Any ideas, please?

 

 

20210605_190452 copy.jpg

20210522_183442 copy.jpg

I have the same setup on my boat with no issues at all, I think my unit is a 30 amp unit and I have had it for at least 3 years ish. The unit has a DC mcb to switch it off and my 12 volt consumer unit is a modern one.

My fridge is the only item that runs on 24 volts and has a separate MCB on it. Sorry I am no help but my setup works great so should yours 

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  • 4 months later...
  • 9 months later...
On 25/12/2020 at 13:59, dmr said:

 I think the Trojan tickle might be as high as 16volts (can't be arsed to find the details) and this is why I do like the concept of automatic equalisation....some stuff just might not like this voltage and so should be turned off prior to equalisation.

 

 

Searching the forum, I came across this old thread.

 

We have been using our boat for about 3 months now with the 4 new Trojans and the tranformation in power availbility has been huge. But we never have access to shorepower and it is probably getting time to do an equalization charge.

 

We have an Adverc connected, but Its not working properly and I have still not sussed out why not, but I do have the alternator temporarily wired direct on to the domestic bank and a relay I can switch on manualy to bypass the upper diode on the split charge when the engine is running to get the engine battery up to 14.2

 

The green wire to the Adverc is wired in to the alternator brushes, I am wondering if that can be interupted and a contrlled voltage fed to the brushes whilst watching the battery terminal voltage? There must be a way of doing this to get the batteries gassing now and then. Currently the voltage between the green wire and ground runs between 8.6 and 9.6

diode.jpg

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If you have not disconnected the alternator voltage regulator (most do not) then disconnecting the green wire will just revert the alternator to its normal regulator control.

 

Semms an odd spit charge diode setup. I think it has the domestic battery wire missing, that is for conventional wiring, you may have done something different.

 

It sounds as if your alternator may have the rotor control on the positive.

 

The Adverc can't do anything to the charging voltage until the alternator's own  regulator starts working and that might be a good while after first start. Why do you think it is not working properly and do you know about positive and negative rotor control?

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23 minutes ago, davidb said:

 

Searching the forum, I came across this old thread.

 

We have been using our boat for about 3 months now with the 4 new Trojans and the tranformation in power availbility has been huge. But we never have access to shorepower and it is probably getting time to do an equalization charge.

 

We have an Adverc connected, but Its not working properly and I have still not sussed out why not, but I do have the alternator temporarily wired direct on to the domestic bank and a relay I can switch on manualy to bypass the upper diode on the split charge when the engine is running to get the engine battery up to 14.2

 

The green wire to the Adverc is wired in to the alternator brushes, I am wondering if that can be interupted and a contrlled voltage fed to the brushes whilst watching the battery terminal voltage? There must be a way of doing this to get the batteries gassing now and then. Currently the voltage between the green wire and ground runs between 8.6 and 9.6

 

 

Much too complicated and you would have to keep adjusting this voltage as any loads changed, and do this quickly, making yourself a sort of human voltage regulator.

Top priority...Get the Adverc working.

This is what I have done.....

There is a preset (twidler) voltage adjudment inside the Adverc. With a bit of careful but easier solderring I have replaced this with a twenty turn preset with the screwdriver adjustment accessible from outside the Adverc box. I use a Smartgage to monitor the voltage but anything would do.

Turn it up to 15.5 to equalise and remember to turn it back down afterwards (14.8 for Trojans).

Its a bit more complicated because the Adverc does voltage cycles so you have to work out which voltage it is at before making the adjustment.  Also the Adverc sometimes has a long rest cycle which is a right pain when equalising.

 

Another option might be to use a solar controller, the Victron stuff is very adjustable. However in the real world you need quite a lot of amps to equalise, waiting for a 1% tail current is not viable, and older batteeries never get close to 1% anyway.

Or, use a mains charge if you ever have access to shore power and again the Victron stuff is really good, do all the settings from your phone on a nice easy to read screen.

 

and yes, Trojans are really good. Lithiums are really really  good but are often compared to cheapo lead acids, when compared to Trojans they still win but its not a walkover.

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42 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Why do you think it is not working properly and do you know about positive and negative rotor control?

Because the alternator voltage is being reduced by the diode and the Adverc is not compensating for it, even when the sense wire is connected on the battery side of the diode.

 

"do you know about positive and negative rotor control?" Obviously not, maybe the new alternator I got last year was modified wrongly?

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23 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Much too complicated and you would have to keep adjusting this voltage as any loads changed, and do this quickly, making yourself a sort of human voltage regulator.

Top priority...Get the Adverc working.

This is what I have done.....

There is a preset (twidler) voltage adjudment inside the Adverc. With a bit of careful but easier solderring I have replaced this with a twenty turn preset with the screwdriver adjustment accessible from outside the Adverc box. I use a Smartgage to monitor the voltage but anything would do.

Turn it up to 15.5 to equalise and remember to turn it back down afterwards (14.8 for Trojans).

Its a bit more complicated because the Adverc does voltage cycles so you have to work out which voltage it is at before making the adjustment.  Also the Adverc sometimes has a long rest cycle which is a right pain when equalising.

 

Another option might be to use a solar controller, the Victron stuff is very adjustable. However in the real world you need quite a lot of amps to equalise, waiting for a 1% tail current is not viable, and older batteeries never get close to 1% anyway.

Or, use a mains charge if you ever have access to shore power and again the Victron stuff is really good, do all the settings from your phone on a nice easy to read screen.

 

and yes, Trojans are really good. Lithiums are really really  good but are often compared to cheapo lead acids, when compared to Trojans they still win but its not a walkover.

Jeez are people really still using lead acid/Trojans. Absolute pants compared to Li. Trust me, I’m a doctor/pilot/someone who has moved on from Trojans and now has Li (delete as appropriate).

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6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Jeez are people really still using lead acid/Trojans. Absolute pants compared to Li. Trust me, I’m a doctor/pilot/someone who has moved on from Trojans and now has Li (delete as appropriate).

 

Sorry, just about to buy 4 new Trojans to replace the 4 of my 6 that are now over 6 years old. Trojans work for me and a like for like replacement is good because I have other projects going on at the moment. Will probably go Lithium next time but not sure that either me or the canal system will last another 6 years.

I have posted in another thread that I just might supplement the Trojans with a 48 volt lithium bank to replace the Travelpower, but at present my project list is full 😀

 

Tell me again...how many hours did you spend designing and building your own alternator controller and battery management system? 😀😀😀

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