Jump to content

DC-DC Converter


Guest

Featured Posts

Hello, has anyone fitted a DC-DC converter to their boat?

 

Just considering it...I have a nice MPPT solar controller but my alternator is very dumb - seems like there's room for improvement in the way I look after my batteries.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

Hello, has anyone fitted a DC-DC converter to their boat?

 

Just considering it...I have a nice MPPT solar controller but my alternator is very dumb - seems like there's room for improvement in the way I look after my batteries.

I have a 12v to 19v DC to DC converter for my laptop

and a 12v to 12v stabilised supply for my TV

 

But I guess if you are looking to 'involve' your alternator, that this may not be what you are looking at.

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

Hello, has anyone fitted a DC-DC converter to their boat?

 

Just considering it...I have a nice MPPT solar controller but my alternator is very dumb - seems like there's room for improvement in the way I look after my batteries.

 

More info about what you hope to achieve. The Sterling A to B add on could be what you are talking about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, maybe that was a bit ambiguous.

 

I want to achieve faster and more sympathetic charging of my leisure batteries.

 

I'm a cc'er and rely on the engine to charge my leisure batteries in the winter. I would like to make the most of the engine running time and maximise the life of the batteries.

 

CTEK and Victron both do DC-DC converters (DS250SE, Orion, respectively).

 

Sterling A to B looks like it would accomplish a similar thing - or is perhaps even better - although I'm not a fan of Sterling ?

 

It seems that such a device would fit the bill, I was curious if anyone else has done it, i.e. gone from dumb alternator to one of these devices?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to expand a little: my solar controller does all these wonderful things that I'm led to believe are good for my batteries (multi-stage charging, equalisation, temperature correction, etc.).

 

So, for half the year, I treat my batteries like royalty. The other half of the year, not so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An Alternator Controller such as those from Adverc and Sterling etc is likely what you need. These do require a small modification to the alternator, an extra wire has to be soldered on.

The Sterling A to B is a complicated and expensive device that does much the same thing for cases where it is not desirable to solder on a wire, such as new engines with a warranty. Many people now prefer to use the A to B rather than a controller, possibly due to good marketing.

 

...................Dave 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

Just to expand a little: my solar controller does all these wonderful things that I'm led to believe are good for my batteries (multi-stage charging, equalisation, temperature correction, etc.).

 

So, for half the year, I treat my batteries like royalty. The other half of the year, not so much.

So not a simple DC to DC converter, actually a battery to battery charger. How will that work while charging from the alternators?

 

Er - have you ever checked the state of charge of the batteries when the solar controller drops to float? Far too many chargers and I assume solar controllers because I expect they tend to use the same control chips/logic drop into float too early so the sulphation rate increases.

 

Our one time battery Guru (Gibbo) stated that the way we use our batteries they do not need equalising. however those that say they benefit from equalising usually relate it to an increase in capacity. that's not equalisation, that is simply using the higher equalisation voltage to convert more sulpahte than can be done at the normal  voltage.

 

Also if you are equalising sealed batteries or even open cell batteries that you don't top up as required is likely to do far more harm than good.

 

I am interested in exactly what you think multi-stage charging is, means, and the actual benefits it gives you. The first stage isnmost cases is just the charge source running flat out. The second stage once the charging voltage has risen sufficiently is just voltage control to a safe level although a multi-stage charger might boost the voltage to try to stuff more current into the battery but I very much doubt it would do any better than a modern 14.5/14.6v alternator regulator unless it pulsed the  voltage boost and even then I have doubts you would notice the improvement. Float on a charger is important to save you turning it off to prevent damage when the batteries are charged but who wastes fuel charging batteries on the alternator beyond fully charged. Equalisation has a place but see above and to do it properly it needs manual monitoring and control by someone who knows what they are about.

 

Any other "stages" are in many "experts" views just marketing bullshine.

 

I would also question how much tangible benefit you would get from temperature compensation.

 

Now - what battery monitoring equipment do you have and exactly how do you use it? In my view adequate monitoring and reaction by a knowledgable boater will extend the batteries life more effectively than fancy add-ons with glossy brochures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

I want to achieve faster and more sympathetic charging of my leisure batteries.

 

I'm a cc'er and rely on the engine to charge my leisure batteries in the winter. I would like to make the most of the engine running time and maximise the life of the batteries.

 

CTEK and Victron both do DC-DC converters (DS250SE, Orion, respectively).

 

The CTEK DS250SE is limited to 20A, so is unlikely to help reduce engine running time.  The installation manual says you can combine this unit with a SMARTPASS to allow charging at up to 140A.

 

The Victron Orion is a 30A unit, so again is likely to extend engine run times, but the manual says you can install these units in parallel to to allow faster charging.

 

 

Edited by TheBiscuits
spellink
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Peanut34 said:

Hello, has anyone fitted a DC-DC converter to their boat?

 

Just considering it...I have a nice MPPT solar controller but my alternator is very dumb - seems like there's room for improvement in the way I look after my batteries.

When you say your alternator is "dumb", you seem to mean that it doesnt have a "clever" controller attached to it and, as Tony says, it may not need one, (and you may not have ready made answers to his questions :) ).

 

When your batteries are at, say, 50% State of Charge, (or 60% or 70%), and your engine/alternator are running:

 

1) what voltage do you see either at your batteries, or on your battery monitor? If less than about 14.4V, does this increase over time to something around 14.4V?

 

1A) Do you have a battery monitor*? If so what make and model? (It could be a NASA, Victron, which are common, or some other brand which may not be so common).

 

2) How many Amps are your batteries drawing? You can see this either on your battery monitor, or with a multimeter with a DC clamp ammeter facility.

 

*Be aware that your solar controller screen is not a battery monitor, although it might give you accurate voltage readings when there is no sun shining.

 

Armed with the above info, someone will be able to either give some advice, or ask some further questions with the goal of giving some advice.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, thanks but I feel a little patronised.

 

Rolls and Trojan's manual both specify parameters to optimise performance and life.

 

Without some suitable device to charge within these parameters, the manufacturer's recommendations cannot be observed. This is generally not a good thing.

 

I assume the manufacturers have some very comprehensive bench-testing data (and an interest in avoiding warranty claims for prematurely failed batteries).

 

Perhaps I should be on a battery forum ?

30 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

The CTEK DS250SE is limited to 20A, so is unlikely to help reduce engine running time.  The installation manual says you can combine this unit with a SMARTPASS to allow charging at up to 140A.

 

The Victron Orion is a 30A unit, so again is likely to extend engine run times, but the manual says you can install these units in parallel to to allow faster charging.

 

 

Yes, I did see they were a bit limited on juice. They're primarily for the 4WD market by the looks of it, liveaboard narrowboats being a very small niche! Will look at the SMARTPASS though, thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

Ok, thanks but I feel a little patronised.

 

Rolls and Trojan's manual both specify parameters to optimise performance and life.

 

Without some suitable device to charge within these parameters, the manufacturer's recommendations cannot be observed. This is generally not a good thing.

 

I assume the manufacturers have some very comprehensive bench-testing data (and an interest in avoiding warranty claims for prematurely failed batteries).

 

Perhaps I should be on a battery forum ?

I have Trojan batteries, I have recently built my own alternator controller with a view to changing to lithiums. So (not being the modest type) I know a lot about batteries and charging and electronics.

 

You came on here with a very vague, unclear and badly written first post. I looked at it and decided it wasn’t worth the hassle of trying to work out what the child-like post actually meant. If people can’t be bothered to explain themselves, I don’t see why I should have to bother to pry the question out of them.

 

Other people, nicer than me, made the effort. But you now accuse those people of patronising you.

 

Well guess what, you are not entitled to be given free advice by telepaths, you have to give a reasonable explanation for your questions if you expect to receive any sort of useful answer. But clearly you feel entitled not to have to bother with any of that, you just want to take. So I’m not going to help you.
 

Off you go to some forum for entitled people where, no doubt you will all be clapping each other on the back without any actual useful information being passed. Bye bye.

Edited by nicknorman
  • Greenie 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

Ok, thanks but I feel a little patronised.

 

Rolls and Trojan's manual both specify parameters to optimise performance and life.

Don't feel patronised - most modern alternators automatically do 'smart charging' which is why you were asked by both Tony Brookes and Richard10002 what the charging charatersitics are of YOUR alternator, it may be faulty.

 

A correctly working alternator will automatically vary the voltage and current during the charging cycle, Initially it will be high current and 'low voltage' and over time and as the battery becomes charged it will change over to 'high voltage' (14.4 - 14.6) and low current.

 

1000's of boaters maintain their batteries by use of 'smart charging' modern alternators.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

Ok, thanks but I feel a little patronised.

That will be because your post made you sound like you didn't know much about what you were talking about, so questions are asked to encourage some necessary info.

 

If that results in your feeling patronised, rather than providing the answers that you already know, in return for the help that you ask for, so be it :( 

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

Ok, thanks but I feel a little patronised.

 

Rolls and Trojan's manual both specify parameters to optimise performance and life.

 

Without some suitable device to charge within these parameters, the manufacturer's recommendations cannot be observed. This is generally not a good thing.

 

I assume the manufacturers have some very comprehensive bench-testing data (and an interest in avoiding warranty claims for prematurely failed batteries).

 

Perhaps I should be on a battery forum ?

Yes, I did see they were a bit limited on juice. They're primarily for the 4WD market by the looks of it, liveaboard narrowboats being a very small niche! Will look at the SMARTPASS though, thanks!

 

Did you read this bit on the Trojan site for equalising flooded cells:-

 

Step-By-Step Equalizing

  1. Verify the battery(s) are flooded type.
  2. Remove all loads from the batteries.
  3. Connect battery charger.
  4. Set charger for the equalizing voltage (See Table 2 in the Charging section). If your charger doesn’t have an equalization mode, you can unplug the charger and re-plug it back in. This also will conduct the equalization charge.
  5. Start charging batteries.
  6. Batteries will begin gassing and bubbling vigorously.
  7. Take specific gravity readings every hour.
  8. Equalization is complete when specific gravity values no longer rise during the gassing stage.

 

If, as I think they are on "smart" charging devices, the equalisation period is fixed then how can you comply with 8 above?

 

Are you certain that you have enough access to carry out 7 above? Many, I suspect the majority, of narrowboats do not have adequate access.

 

I think 4 above is simply untrue for the majority of battery chargers, doing that will put into the absorption voltage not equalisation.

 

Note that Trojan valve regulated batteries (AGM or gel) should not be equalised.

 

 

 

By all means spend your money on fancy gizmos but please make sure you know how to look after batteries, how to monitor them and can see through the marketing blurb. Not looking after and monitoring the batteries state of charge will kill them far faster then having the charging voltages slightly below what the manufacturer gives. The values n the Trojan site look like absolute maximums to me. remember that 13.6 volts will charge any lead acid battery ---------- eventually. Its not that long ago that alternator regulated voltage was 13.8 to 14.2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Don't feel patronised - most modern alternators automatically do 'smart charging' which is why you were asked by both Tony Brookes and Richard10002 what the charging charatersitics are of YOUR alternator, it may be faulty.

 

A correctly working alternator will automatically vary the voltage and current during the charging cycle, Initially it will be high current and 'low voltage' and over time and as the battery becomes charged it will change over to 'high voltage' (14.4 - 14.6) and low current.

 

1000's of boaters maintain their batteries by use of 'smart charging' modern alternators.

I am not aware of any alternators fitted as standard to narrowboat engines that do "smart charging", a basic machine sensed low gain voltage regulator is about as good (bad?) as it gets?

 

..............Dave

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Living on a boat requires some sensible compromise, its not really viable to exactly meet the specification of the battery manufacturers, I am not aware of any charger than can produce the Trojan optimum charge curve.

A good alternator controller will do much better than an unmodified alternator and will be perfectly adequate.

 

...............Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Peanut34 said:

Ok, thanks but I feel a little patronised.

 

Rolls and Trojan's manual both specify parameters to optimise performance and life.

 

Without some suitable device to charge within these parameters, the manufacturer's recommendations cannot be observed. This is generally not a good thing.

 

I assume the manufacturers have some very comprehensive bench-testing data (and an interest in avoiding warranty claims for prematurely failed batteries).

 

Perhaps I should be on a battery forum ?

Yes, I did see they were a bit limited on juice. They're primarily for the 4WD market by the looks of it, liveaboard narrowboats being a very small niche! Will look at the SMARTPASS though, thanks!

 

I was not patronising and I gave you the perfect answer to your question, fit an alternator controller.

 

And don't take manufacturers specs too seriously, they make them up as they go along, even Trojan. If you search the www you will find a few different specs from Trojan.

 

................Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, dmr said:

I am not aware of any alternators fitted as standard to narrowboat engines that do "smart charging", a basic machine sensed low gain voltage regulator is about as good (bad?) as it gets?

 

..............Dave

 

I think Alan was trying to say that a standard alternator controller will allow  a kind of multi-stage charging in so far as they do bulk charging and then (over a fairly short period of time) go to absorption. No they won't equalise, although if you know alternators you can probably persuade them to get close to if by shorting out the regulator and adjusting the revs. As I said what type of idiot regularly keeps engine charging after the batteries are fully charged so float is an irrelevant stage.

 

Yes, the charging procedure can be improved by add ons but its far more important to get the monitoring right. Just throwing £££££ at the boater's lack of instrumentation and knowledge is very likely to end in damaged batteries.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, dmr said:

 

I was not patronising and I gave you the perfect answer to your question, fit an alternator controller.

 

And don't take manufacturers specs too seriously, they make them up as they go along, even Trojan. If you search the www you will find a few different specs from Trojan.

 

................Dave

 

And when they are way outside the normal alternator range I suspect in some cases they are nothing more than a way of avoiding warrantee claims.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I too felt the OP post was clearly lacking in detail so very difficult to understand what he was asking. From his comment about trojians it sounds like he is looking for something to give him 14.8v on charge whereas his alternator is only putting out 14.2v.

To help, on my old boat, the alternator put out around 13.9v max so I bought a Sterling AtoB which is a doddle to fit and worked great to get the voltage up to 14.6v.....or other charging programmes which were very very useful when I swapped to Lithiums. With our new boat and a much bigger alternator, I now have experience of Sterling B2Bs which allow charging at a range of voltages and they have a custom set up that can go to 14.8v (IIRC). They are a bit wasteful on power and loose 15% of what you are making.

Perhaps if the OP came back and gave us a detailed description of what he is trying to achieve, we could provide some better advice?

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a lot of assumption that I'm asking for advice, I'm not. I'm asking if anyone has fitted a DC-DC converter (and here is my fault for not specifying the type of device I was talking about) for leisure battery charging.

 

I deliberately didn't put much detail in the question because it's a simple question, the answer to which seems to be 'no'. And that's absolutely fine!

 

It's my hypothesis that that battery manufacturers detail specific parameters and maintenance procedures to maximise the life of their batteries, and that getting as close as possible to these parameters and procedures is a good thing. Following on from this, I believe there are devices in production whose purpose is to achieve this (in conjunction with correct monitoring and maintenance).

 

I apologise to those of you who were annoyed by my 'vague' question - I see some of you were trying to help and I don't mean to be rude, there were some interesting points in there and I thank you for them.

 

Not @nicknorman though. I could 'build' an alternator controller whilst I was brushing my teeth ?

 

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to apply a scientific method to boating. If I were able to run multiple sets of leisure batteries, charged by various means, in several years I would have some data for comparison. I can't though. Collectively we could, but there are so many variables it might be a real mess!

 

I'm interested in the topic, I can't imagine the amount of money being spent on battery research for electric cars at the moment, I suspect much of which will trickle down (pun intended) in due course. But if I can nurse the bejesus out of some lead acids in the meantime - not because it's easy, but because it's hard - well, that's what I'm going to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Peanut34 said:

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to apply a scientific method to boating. If I were able to run multiple sets of leisure batteries, charged by various means, in several years I would have some data for comparison. I can't though. Collectively we could, but there are so many variables it might be a real mess!

This is why boaters rely on experience, their own and others and tradition a lot. Budgets are limited, especially for boaters, but also for most equipment manufacturers, so proper controlled experiments are unusual, just because of the expense. Victron are perhaps an exception, but they have the large and well heeled salty water market as the majority of their business. Occasionally someone tries something new and mostly the experiment fails and they are out of pocket. Rarely, something works and eventually becomes the new normal way of doing things. Are you feeling lucky?

 

Don't worry about people seeming to be annoyed. They really aren't. OK, maybe a teensy bit! ? A lot of technical posts lack enough information to make any sort of useful comment. Dragging that information out of the original poster can often be painful, but not with you. Over sharing technical info is good!

Jen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed, its very difficult to decide when we get a post like the first one (and we get an awful lot of them) if the poster is just asking the questions as you now explain or have insufficient technical knowledge or even language ability to form the question so they get the answer they need - not think they need. when faced with this myself and many others feel it best to answer the question as the one most people would have asked if they knew how.

 

Typically this type of question comes from newish boaters with a low post count who have swallowed the marketing blurb hook line and sinker and think simply throwing money at what they see as THE problem will solve it. In the vast majority of cases it wont because its is their inabilities that are causing the problem. Be it lack of knowledge, lack of understanding of what is happening & why, or problems with equipment and installation.

 

Remember that on many alternators a diode or two in the right place will give a higher charging voltage and a few more and a switch could even provide the equalisation voltage and that would be under manual control rather than just timed  and prey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Peanut34 said:

e's a lot of assumption that I'm asking for advice, I'm not. I'm asking if anyone has fitted a DC-DC converter (and here is my fault for not specifying the type of device I was talking about) for leisure battery charging.

 

I deliberately didn't put much detail in the question because it's a simple question, the answer to which seems to be 'no'. And that's absolutely fine!

Well I have tried 2 types of dc to dc converter as per my previous post but to give you a recommendation on whether they may work for you, more info is required. Without that information it's pointless saying anything. You really do need to tell us what you are doings if you want an answer. Yes there are dc to dc converters that change how batteries can be charged. 

Now if you want further information, please detail your exact problem and maybe I can be more specific in what these dc to dc converters do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.