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Aire & Calder Breach


Joe Bourke

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14 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Find the post where I said it was.    on't waste your time as I have never said that.  I do however feel a canal will be less likely to have problems if there are regular checks/inspections by somebody who knows it very well rather than has walked it once every 6 months.

There are 100 posts in this thread, I didn't say you did say it, I just asked the question of anyone following the thread. It wasn't a personal conversation, if it was I would have messaged you .

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12 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Whilst 10 miles does not sound much I suspect it is a pretty big ask in a normal working day to do that and properly inspect all if the assets on that length. Need to know the total number of assets and their typical distribution. 

Track inspection "walks" on the railway in our area seemed to be no more than 10 miles, but only in one direction, so I would expect the lengths on the canal to be similar.

Edited by Graham Davis
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General length of a days patrolling on the railway is about 6 miles. The core purpose is to inspect the track but it also includes a general fence to fence check. That isn’t though the primary means that is expected to identify an earthwork failure. You simply can’t do that sufficiently as part of a general inspection. If for example you were walking the towpath inspecting a canal how do you inspect the condition of an embankment on the offside?

 

If you want to prevent breaches you need to explicitly inspect for the known precursors using someone properly qualified and experienced to do so, including the use of measurement where applicable. A human being is not very good at picking up small incremental changes over a period of time and that is usually what is required. This is one reason that frequent general visual inspection is a less and less favoured method over measurement and a less frequent detailed inspection that targets specific features.

 

All railway track and associated assets are still inspected to set frequencies, but not all are still subject to frequent general visual inspection.

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I under stand the rail network rely more on technology for checking track condition too. Something the canal network does not lend itself to very well.

 

I guess in a "pre serious' breach state a leak could possibly be detected using ultra sound but this wouldn't really be practical on the canal system.

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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In the case of the Middlewich breach, locals had informed C&RT for more than 2-years that there was a steady trickle-leak and it was 'poo-pood' as not being significant, but as everyone (except C&RT) seem to appreciate is that a drop becomes a dribble, becomes a 'stream' becomes a flood and that washes out the banks.

 

Little Dutch boy and 'finger in the Dyke' springs to mind.

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7 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

I under stand the rail network rely more on technology for checking track condition too. Something the canal network does not lend itself to very well.

 

I guess in a "pre serious' breach state a leak could possibly be detected using ultra sound but this wouldn't really be practical on the canal system.

 

 

The technology isn’t necessarily transferable but it’s as much the mentality that is important. It’s the will to do the work to identify the root causes and adopt regimes that can detect them at the early onset stage. Railways have many critical risks, canals I’d argue have very few and a breach is very near the top of the list.

 

Loss of water is possibly an indicator of a potential breach and there are simple explicit ways of measuring water loss in a pound. Ground penetrating radar rather than ultrasound is a potential appropriate technology but that would likely only be necessary to investigate what is causing an easy to detect symptom like loss of water.

 

We should bear in mind that the number of potential breach sites probably isn’t huge. They will all have similar factors. Middlewich, Ashby and A&C all seem to involve the interface between a structure and an embankment.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In the case of the Middlewich breach, locals had informed C&RT for more than 2-years that there was a steady trickle-leak and it was 'poo-pood' as not being significant, but as everyone (except C&RT) seem to appreciate is that a drop becomes a dribble, becomes a 'stream' becomes a flood and that washes out the banks.

 

Little Dutch boy and 'finger in the Dyke' springs to mind.

That’s because for every such report they have hundreds or thousands of potential failures their own processes have identified. I dare say they had identified the underlying issues at Middlewich anyway and it was simply in the mix of their scheduling of work.

 

CRT will know very much more about their assets than you think. What they clearly don’t get right is understanding the risk profile in their maintenance backlog. It’s a lot harder to do that using foresight than it is when you have the hindsight afforded by reflecting on an empty canal. Even the best in the business are constantly learning and improving because no one gets it right all the time, even when the balance of cost versus risk is very much more favourable than that with which CRT have to deal.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In the case of the Middlewich breach, locals had informed C&RT for more than 2-years that there was a steady trickle-leak and it was 'poo-pood' as not being significant, but as everyone (except C&RT) seem to appreciate is that a drop becomes a dribble, becomes a 'stream' becomes a flood and that washes out the banks.

 

Little Dutch boy and 'finger in the Dyke' springs to mind.

I suspect part of the problem is that there are many, many places where water either actually or apparently leaks out beside a canal, few of which have serious implications and have been there 'for ever'. It may not even be possible to determine which are likely to lead to serious failure, more a matter of chance or the unpredictable. But 20-20 hindsight is a great thing - best bit is that you are never wrong.

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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In the case of the Middlewich breach, locals had informed C&RT for more than 2-years that there was a steady trickle-leak and it was 'poo-pood' as not being significant, but as everyone (except C&RT) seem to appreciate is that a drop becomes a dribble, becomes a 'stream' becomes a flood and that washes out the banks.

 

Little Dutch boy and 'finger in the Dyke' springs to mind.

The Middlewich breach was down to overtopping. In 2010, a Principal Inspection report found that the embankment had settled and was only 200mm above canal level. The recommendation was that both the embankment and wash wall be raised within 5 years at a cost of £41,000. A local decision was taken not to carry out the work.

Principal Inspection Report

Edited by Allan(nb Albert)
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22 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I suspect part of the problem is that there are many, many places where water either actually or apparently leaks out beside a canal, few of which have serious implications and have been there 'for ever'. It may not even be possible to determine which are likely to lead to serious failure, more a matter of chance or the unpredictable. But 20-20 hindsight is a great thing - best bit is that you are never wrong.

 

Fair comment, but I'd suggest that when it hasn't happened and nothing has been seen for years ('for ever') and 'suddenly' you start to see  a small leakage, that a few months later becomes a dribble, that a few month later becomes a small stream, then something should suggest that "this isn't going to get-better by itself".

 

IF C&RT had been patrolling the bankside every 6 months, then the 'lengthsman' would have been able to note the differences, instead C&RT ignored all warnings and when there was a catastrophic failure they blamed boaters for leaving both sets of lock paddles open and the resulting 'tidal wave' washing away the embankment.

16 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

The Middlewich breach was down to overtopping. In 2010, a Principal Inspection report found that the embankment had settled and was only 200mm above canal level. The recommendation was that both the embankment and wash wall be raised within 5 years at a cost of £41,000. A local decision was taken not to carry out the work.

Principal Inspection Report

I am not arguing that the canal overtopped, but the locals had been writing to C&RT for more than 2 years pointing out there was a leak, in exactly the same place as the failure eventually happened.

 

The report you linked to also said that :

There were a number of rabbit burrows in the embankment, AND that there was an area of 'slipped slope face'.

 

They knew about the problems and ignored them

 

The recommendation was to repair the problems within 5 years (from 2010) - when did the breach happen ? (April 2018)

 

Remember that C&RT also said the failure was down to boaters opening all the paddles on two locks !!

 

 

 

Screenshot (120).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Fair comment, but I'd suggest that when it hasn't happened and nothing has been seen for years ('for ever') and 'suddenly' you start to see  a small leakage, that a few months later becomes a dribble, that a few month later becomes a small stream, then something should suggest that "this isn't going to get-better by itself".

 

IF C&RT had been patrolling the bankside every 6 months, then the 'lengthsman' would have been able to note the differences, instead C&RT ignored all warnings and when there was a catastrophic failure they blamed boaters for leaving both sets of lock gates open and the resulting 'tidal wave' washing away the embankment.

I am not arguing that the canal overtopped, but the locals had been writing to C&RT for more than 2 years pointing out there was a leak, in exactly the same place as the failure eventually happened.

 

Remember that C&RT also said the failure was down to boater leaving the gates open !!

Aqueducts and embankments should have length inspections monthly, annual inspections (obviously) yearly and principal inspections at 10-20 years (depending on asset condition.

There is some evidence that CRT may have moved to bi monthly inspections.

The principal inspection seemed aware of previous problems and asked for leakage or seepage to be reported. 

However, it is very similar to Toddbrook in that the public could see the early signs of failure and reported it but CRT took no action. 

******* Edited to add - Certainly all paddles were found to be up at the lock above ...

Edited by Allan(nb Albert)
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Just seen on the local Look North that the emergency repairs have failed, no other information given other than fields are flooded, but no houses as of now, so that in itself is good news.

Edited by Kendorr
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2 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

Track inspection "walks" on the railway in our area seemed to be no more than 10 miles, but only in one direction, so I would expect the lengths on the canal to be similar.

I would suggest also track inspection walks have a less varied area to examine (a hint is in the name) where as a lengthsman would be looking at vegetation, canal banks, culverts bridges etc. 

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1 hour ago, Jerra said:

I would suggest also track inspection walks have a less varied area to examine (a hint is in the name) where as a lengthsman would be looking at vegetation, canal banks, culverts bridges etc. 

No, see post 103. Inspection goes from fence to fence and upwards to the roofs of tunnels, and bridges. They are lengthsmen and in fact used to be known as such. Think of the number of ruined "bothies" you still see a!ing the side of many lines.

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I suspect that one major problem for identifying possible leaks is the current way people want to preserve the natural environment. Historically, one of the main jobs for a bankranger, to use the L&LC term, was to keep down vegetation, making it much easier to identify sites where there was a problem. The two photos are of Bingley 5-rise in 1881 and 2012, and shows the increase in tree growth, let alone other vegetation. Environmentalists do tend to forget that canals are man-made structures, and need to be looked after as such, rather than as purely natural.

1881 5-rise 3 10D76:4 Box 22 Bradford RO.jpg

_IGP4402.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Pluto said:

I suspect that one major problem for identifying possible leaks is the current way people want to preserve the natural environment. Historically, one of the main jobs for a bankranger, to use the L&LC term, was to keep down vegetation, making it much easier to identify sites where there was a problem. The two photos are of Bingley 5-rise in 1881 and 2012, and shows the increase in tree growth, let alone other vegetation. Environmentalists do tend to forget that canals are man-made structures, and need to be looked after as such, rather than as purely natural.

1881 5-rise 3 10D76:4 Box 22 Bradford RO.jpg

_IGP4402.jpg

I would make a couple of observations.

 

The first is that many of the trees are on land which has nothing to do with the canals.

 

The second is you seem to be suggesting that all man made structures should be kept as clear of nature as possible.   Are you old enough to remember when the verges and batters of motorways were mown regularly and kept as  neat as lawns.

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2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The second is you seem to be suggesting that all man made structures should be kept as clear of nature as possible.   Are you old enough to remember when the verges and batters of motorways were mown regularly and kept as  neat as lawns.

 

And, now left to run wild and the Councils do not seem to take any responsibility for Ragwort .................

 

We go to a great deal of trouble and effort manually 'pulling' Ragwort every year, but the seeds blow in from the road side making it a never ending job.

 

The Weeds Act 1959 and the Ragwort Control Act 2003.

 

Extracts :

 

Under the 1959 Act a landowner or occupier may be ordered to control the spread of ragwort. The 2003 Act allows for the creation of a code of practice .........

 

 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And, now left to run wild and the Councils do not seem to take any responsibility for Ragwort .................

Not allowed to run wild, much of it was planted by a company called  "The Economic Forestry Group" (IIRC).  The verges have done a lot to maintain and preserve the country's biodiversity.   Particularly the pollinators without which most of our food would not grow.   Bumblebees are 20 times better pollinators than honey bees and virtually every tomato you have bought since the mid 80s has been pollinated by Bumblebees.

 

The councils have also saved a fortune in labour and fuel not to mention the cutting of pollution.

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

We go to a great deal of trouble and effort manually 'pulling' Ragwort every year, but the seeds blow in from the road side making it a never ending job.

 

The Weeds Act 1959 and the Ragwort Control Act 2003.

 

Extracts :

 

Under the 1959 Act a landowner or occupier may be ordered to control the spread of ragwort. The 2003 Act allows for the creation of a code of practice .........

 

Having rogued my share of ragwort by hand there is no need to draw my attention to the law.   I admit it is an unfortunate side effect but it isn't just motorways where the Ragwort runs riot many other roads and many tracts of private land.    Take it up with the council who is responsible for the road.

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We had ragwort issues when I was little as parents owned large houses with a lot of land. 

 

I seem to have succeeded in avoiding ragwort issues by neither owning land nor houses. Just boats. No ragwort on boats. 

 

Ragwort control problems are definitely what is known as a "first world problem". 

 

I really like the curve in the first photo Pluto posted. Lovely bit of work. 

Edited by magnetman
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9 hours ago, Kendorr said:

Just seen on the local Look North that the emergency repairs have failed, no other information given other than fields are flooded, but no houses as of now, so that in itself is good news.

The sandbags have been deposited on the towpath side of the breach, not the canal side. The breach has continued to eat away at the weak points and is coming under the piling further along....thus more and more of the towpath is being undermined and the breach continues to grow.

Common sense says stick a row or 2 of sandbags on the upstream side of the breach, but hey, someone knows better, and its failing.

 

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28 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The sandbags have been deposited on the towpath side of the breach, not the canal side. The breach has continued to eat away at the weak points and is coming under the piling further along....thus more and more of the towpath is being undermined and the breach continues to grow.

Common sense says stick a row or 2 of sandbags on the upstream side of the breach, but hey, someone knows better, and its failing.

 

Did you see the video footage in post #35 showing a helicopter dropping a sandbag on the upstream side (i.e the canal side) of the breach?

Edited by Alway Swilby
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20 hours ago, Kendorr said:

Just seen on the local Look North that the emergency repairs have failed, no other information given other than fields are flooded, but no houses as of now, so that in itself is good news.

Hmmm.

Nothing of this on the BBC local news website. Latest news is 3 days ago, headed "East and West Cowick flooding: Canal breach plugged and repaired".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-55436074

 

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17 hours ago, Jerra said:

I would make a couple of observations.

 

The first is that many of the trees are on land which has nothing to do with the canals.

 

The second is you seem to be suggesting that all man made structures should be kept as clear of nature as possible.   Are you old enough to remember when the verges and batters of motorways were mown regularly and kept as  neat as lawns.

Your first observation is certainly correct, but I was describing those growing on canal property, which if allowed to grow out of hand will damage the canal's infrastructure. It was one of the main jobs bankrangers did, ensuring that natural growth did not cause breaches, at the same time making it easier to spot problems.

 

I am old enough to remember the smogs we used to get before motorways were built. The Clean Air Act certainly improved matters, though it has probably been the cause of more tree growth on vulnerable embankments. I can remember a time when the Aire valley side below the canal at Armley were almost completely devoid of growth, and since the Act was passed, it has become covered with trees. They are not on canal property, and are probably not destabilising the sloping valley sides, though trees can cause such problems in some circumstances. We live in a man-made environment which means we have to balance the positive and negative sides of nature. The arguments for and against planting trees alongside canals were considered in depth in the early 18th century when the banks of the Canal du Midi were first lined with plane trees, though I am not old enough to remember that happening. There were similar arguments when canals were built in the late 18th century in this country, and I am not old enough to remember them either. However, I have researched the history, so do have some understanding about the benefits or otherwise of trees near to canals.

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32 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Hmmm.

Nothing of this on the BBC local news website. Latest news is 3 days ago, headed "East and West Cowick flooding: Canal breach plugged and repaired".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-55436074

 

Doesnt look like it from this facebook post...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/canalsandrivers/permalink/3658763677541201/

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