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Responsible or Irresponsible Tier 3 Cruising?


PD1964

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8 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 This means means we are only in there roughly half as long as one of us would be, and other couples may be have a similar modus operandi.

 

 

This point seems to have escaped some contributors here.

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36 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You are not prepared to be persuaded by scientific argument above, ie two people are exhaling twice as many aerosols , which contain twice as many virus particles.

That isn't scientific argument it is your assertion.

 

Science has shown that viral load depends on the concentration of aerosol droplets and time spent in the concentration.   Small shops with a steady flow of people have less air to dilute the aerosols so a greater concentration.  People seem to think small shops are safer so tend to spend time there.    A greater risk.

 

The "big Sheds" have massive amounts of air to dilute the aerosols and a larger floor space allowing greater social distancing.

 

I could say you aren't prepared to be persuaded by the scientific argument but I won't.

 

P.S.   Viral load is what determines your likelihood of catching the disease and the severity of the disease the greater the load the worse the risk.   According to all the Professors.

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16 hours ago, Athy said:

I read this a couple of times and tried to find any reason not to dismiss it as twaddle.

I failed, I'm afraid.

Why am I not even remotely surprised?

I suspect many others fail to grasp this too.

I'll try to simply explain just one of the reasons (there are more):

 

When someone is carrying the virus, they will be shedding virus particles all the time, whether symptomatic or not. 

 

If I go into a supermarket at noon and 200 individual shoppers have been in there before me that day, then that's 200 opportunities for the virus to be either on surfaces in the shop, or in the air, not including staff.

 

If all the those people had taken a partner in with them, that doubles to 400 opportunities.  So now my shopping trip has a higher risk.  How much higher is difficult to quantify, but it's all of these tiny bits of elevated risk that push the r0 from below 1 to above 1.  This means that the virus spreads rather than retreats.

 

A second reason is even more obvious and it relates to how crowded the shop is when I'm actually in there.  Thankfully, as I've said, I haven't been in a shop for months.  The more people who follow suit, the less crowded the shops are for those who do go in.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

We have both had the virus, been tested and found to have antibodies, and now even had a jab. We shop together in a supermarket which opens at 0700 hrs. We each have an individual shopping list, our own trolley, and with our own cards can even check out separately. This means means we are only in there roughly half as long as one of us would be, and other couples may be have a similar modus operandi.

 

It was beginning to get busier as more people started shopping early and were bringing their children with them, but the latest lockdown may (hopefully - to be selfish) have changed that. None of the children were behaving badly but they did significantly slow things down.

 

Tam

That seems to be a reasonable behavour pattern, but pretty much unique

I don't take the risk, I have food delivered. 

I have seen children and adults touching stuff and putting it back, so when I get my deliveries, I often leave them outside the boat overnight, or wipe them before use, this is assuming the virus does not last for longer than six hours without a host.

Edited by LadyG
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2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

 

 

P.S.   Viral load is what determines your likelihood of catching the disease and the severity of the disease the greater the load the worse the risk.   According to all the Professors.

If Viral load determines how badly you get it. How come when Boris Johnson and Matt Hancock caught Covid. They said Boris got it worse because he was fat. But they dont know how much viral load he got. He could of got a big viral load and Matt a small viral load

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15 hours ago, restlessnomad said:

May be because nobody I know has died.

14 hours ago, restlessnomad said:

 

15 hours ago, restlessnomad said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, restlessnomad said:

May be because nobody I know has died.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head there.  I don't know personally of anyone who's died, but I indirectly know of 6 so far (3 in one family within a couple of weeks of each other), and dozens on people who've had it, including some who have become seriously ill.

 

14 hours ago, restlessnomad said:

yes that too(but wont push my luck, who knows what underlying disease I got).. I get it why some are paranoid though, if I was in high risk group, I will not go outside at all and will get everything delivered.

 

This view is all too common too sadly.  I'm not in a high risk group at all, but I'm being extremely cautious because I don't want to risk spreading it to someone else who is.  Trouble is, most people in this country only ever consider themselves in these decisions.

Edited by doratheexplorer
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13 hours ago, Jerra said:

I am not convinced that one person from a couple doing the shopping will necessarily reduce the risk much.   The thinking being if one person of the couple has the disease the other almost certainly will as well.   Therefore the slight risk will be a small increase of virus in the air.

 

I would agree shopping and indeed all non essential movements should be reduced.

To add to the earlier debunking of this position.  How do you even know that a pair of people shopping together are from the same household?

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1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

To add to the earlier debunking of this position.  How do you even know that a pair of people shopping together are from the same household?

I would think quite a few elderly go shopping together as they can help each other and get some needed contact?

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34 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

We have both had the virus, been tested and found to have antibodies, and now even had a jab. We shop together in a supermarket which opens at 0700 hrs. We each have an individual shopping list, our own trolley, and with our own cards can even check out separately. This means means we are only in there roughly half as long as one of us would be, and other couples may be have a similar modus operandi.

 

It was beginning to get busier as more people started shopping early and were bringing their children with them, but the latest lockdown may (hopefully - to be selfish) have changed that. None of the children were behaving badly but they did significantly slow things down.

 

Tam

I would say you've just described two people shopping seperately there.  I don't really have any issue with that.  If a couple shop seperately in this way, and they're both infectious, they're putting out twice the viral particles but for half the time, so the end result is much the same.  I very much doubt that what most are doing though.

Edited by doratheexplorer
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16 minutes ago, Athy said:

This point seems to have escaped some contributors here.

Are you now claiming to be one of these model couples who take half the time of a single person for the shopping, @Athy ? I think there are very few who meet that criteria.

Most couples I have seen are identifiable because they are two to one trolley, and spend a lot of time wandering about aimlessly, shopping lists are kind of 1960's.

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13 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

I would think quite a few elderly go shopping together as they can help each other and get some needed contact?

I think you will find most elderly are staying at home, the supermarket shop is not a social gathering. The reason pubs are closed is to prevent social gathering.

I assume you mean elderly couples who live in one household, they are very vulnerable, and that is why everyone using supermarkets should minimise their trips, and sanitise, and not go around touching surfaces, lifting goods and replacing them.

The delivery of groceries has increased dramatically, and nearly eveyone can use technology to shop, but there are some people who can't cope with that method, and may well be confused.

Edited by LadyG
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6 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

I would think quite a few elderly go shopping together as they can help each other and get some needed contact?

Quite probably, so the risk of transmission is significant.

 

As I said earlier, if a person is so infirm that they are not capable of shopping by themselves, I'd question whether they should be going shopping at all.

 

My parents are in this position.  In the first lockdown I bent over backwards to ensure they got food deliveries.  As soon as the lockdown was relaxed slightly, they insisted on going out to the supermarket.  They're both unsteady on their feet and would have taken a very long time to do the shopping.  After a few days, if became apparent to me that they had started going shopping every day, mostly out of boredom I think.  After a long chat, they agreed to limit shopping trips to once a week.  That was last summer.  Both have seen their health deteriorate in the last six months and they now get meals on wheels.

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Easy Peasy

 

They are arguing with each other.

They don't talk to each other.

One has the list and doesn't show it to the other.

Man keeps telling women to hurry up.

Man keeps telling woman to put the first one she picks up to put it in the trolley.

Man is continually looking at the ceiling.

Looks could kill when they get to the beer isle.

Man gets shouted at for putting things on the conveyor belt in wrong order.

Man gets shouted at for putting wrong things in wrong bags.

Women moaning to Man that he parked the car too far away.

Good list!  So if I see two people with one trolley, having a civil conversation, I'll report it to the police.

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51 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

We have both had the virus, been tested and found to have antibodies, and now even had a jab. We shop together in a supermarket which opens at 0700 hrs. We each have an individual shopping list, our own trolley, and with our own cards can even check out separately. This means means we are only in there roughly half as long as one of us would be, and other couples may be have a similar modus operandi.

 

In which case, you are not really going shopping together with Di in the usual sense; it is rather that you are both shopping at the same time,

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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I don't take the risk, I have food delivered.

 We did look at that but could never get a delivery slot. Also we like food - the idea of someone stuffing things in a box, choosing what you will have if they don't have exactly what you asked for, not being able to look at the vegetables and selecting exactly what we want - anathema to self-indulgent foodies like me and Di.  ??️

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you've just hit the nail on the head there.  I don't know personally of anyone who's died, but I indirectly know of 6 so far (3 in one family within a couple of weeks of each other), and dozens on people who've had it, including some who have become seriously ill.

 

 

This view is all too common too sadly.  I'm not in a high risk group at all, but I'm being extremely cautious because I don't want to risk spreading it to someone else who is.  Trouble is, most people in this country only ever consider themselves in these decisions.

yes,  I am one among most people. While concerned and upset, I don't lose my sleep over whats going on in syria or many african countries. Why? because I am separated by geography from those realities. UK is obviously closer but if I draw circles about things that affect me, its still not in the innermost circle.

Within a month of two of corona outbreak, I realised we are in this for long haul, which means while we need to change some behaviour, we cant delay living our day to day life thinking it will be all over within few months. The more closer to 'normal' life I am, more mentally at peace I am with myself. I can see it looks like its all about 'me' but that's how it is. 

 

If you want to be overzealous feel free to search around internet to see what is absolute best thing to do but I will just rely on govt guidelines and follow it. (which changes every few months but that's the nature of the game). Conversely I am more willing to forgive people if they have momentary lapse of judgement, instead of being a busy body advising people what to do (have seen them in supermarkets). 

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

Why am I not even remotely surprised?

.

 

 

 

 

I have no idea - perhaps you did not understand that if the doorman at a supermarket ensures that there are, say, not more than 40 customers in there at once, it doesn't matter if some of them are in couples (I almost said "coupled" but that would conjure up a different mental image), there are still only 40. of them. Additionally, as has been pointed out above, a couple will do their shopping much more quickly than one person who's shopping for two.

   That's the theory. In practice, Mrs. Athy and I went to the local Morrison's last week and I stayed in the car while she shopped, though it was only a two-minute dash to get a couple of items which we hadn't got in stock. If we're doing a bigger shop (which we haven't done since about November), one will push the trolley methodically up and down each aisle while the other makes sorties to other aisles and returns to put the bread, biscuits, cheese, whatever, in the trolley. So we finish quite quickly.

   I mentioned that I'd been in a shop yesterday; it was the butcher's next door to us, which allows only one customer in at a time. I put a mask on, the lady behind the counter wore a face shield, I touched only the items which I bought and I paid by contactless card. When I got home I washed my hands thoroughly. So I think I was doing as much as I could to keep myself and other people safe.

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9 minutes ago, Athy said:

.. one will push the trolley methodically up and down each aisle while the other makes sorties to other aisles and returns to put the bread, biscuits, cheese, whatever, in the trolley. So we finish quite quickly.

 

That's what Di and I used to do until Di decided I could be trusted to pick up the right brand and size of things and I got promoted.

 

Tam

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6 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

That's what Di and I used to do until Di decided I could be trusted to pick up the right brand and size of things and I got promoted.

 

Tam

:clapping:

That reminds me of a cast plaque affixed to a wall in one of our previous boats: "I am the captain of this ship, and I have my wife's permission to say so".

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17 minutes ago, Athy said:

I have no idea - perhaps you did not understand that if the doorman at a supermarket ensures that there are, say, not more than 40 customers in there at once, it doesn't matter if some of them are in couples (I almost said "coupled" but that would conjure up a different mental image), there are still only 40. of them. Additionally, as has been pointed out above, a couple will do their shopping much more quickly than one person who's shopping for two.

   That's the theory. In practice, Mrs. Athy and I went to the local Morrison's last week and I stayed in the car while she shopped, though it was only a two-minute dash to get a couple of items which we hadn't got in stock. If we're doing a bigger shop (which we haven't done since about November), one will push the trolley methodically up and down each aisle while the other makes sorties to other aisles and returns to put the bread, biscuits, cheese, whatever, in the trolley. So we finish quite quickly.

   I mentioned that I'd been in a shop yesterday; it was the butcher's next door to us, which allows only one customer in at a time. I put a mask on, the lady behind the counter wore a face shield, I touched only the items which I bought and I paid by contactless card. When I got home I washed my hands thoroughly. So I think I was doing as much as I could to keep myself and other people safe.

in my experience couples argue discuss about things they want to buy where singles methodically go by a list their partner(or they themselves) have prepared. I am not convinced a couple will take half the time that a single person will take to do shopping.

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8 minutes ago, restlessnomad said:

in my experience couples argue discuss about things they want to buy.

Different people have different experiences. I take (or I should say took) much longer when shopping on my own, as I would tarry in various parts of the shop looking for interesting food and good bargains. I was not allowed to do this when accompanied! Sometimes Mrs. Athy would drop me off at the supermarket and leave me there while she went off to visit those mysterious other shops which only ladies know about. She'd usually say "Meet you at the beer in 45 minutes" so that I would have something interesting to look at while I was waiting for her to arrive.

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