Responsible or Irresponsible Tier 3 Cruising?

[matty40s]

Wimbledon, men 5 sets, women 3 sets.

[Mike Todd]

16 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

And there lies the stupidity of such legislation. We now have a miriad of situations through life were equality is an ass. We have 6ft 4inch 18 stone burly male police ossifers locking arms with 5ft 2 inch 8 stone police girls trying to contain eeejuts. This is why we have male and female seperated at such as running events etc in the olympics as we are most certainly NOT equal in many ways. Women are way better at many things than blokes and vice versa but too many people are frightened to state facts.

It may be, in some folk's opinion, be stupid, but it is the law. 

 

FWIW the complementarian argument (equal but different) has now largely been discredited save that it is formally espoused by various Churches to justify male only roles. Elsewhere it is no longer legal although it stubbornly persists in the community. Bit like Covid will defy the vaccine!

 

It is decades now that the Equal Pay Act, and its successors made such arguments illegal.  Physical strength requirements remain allowable, and are quite tough for firefighters, but must be framed in such a way that they do not discriminate on a gender basis alone and must clearly be a necessary part of doing the job.

[Athy]

My Mum used to say that she didn't want to be equal with men as she'd been superior to them all her life.

[Jerra]

3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

FWIW the complementarian argument (equal but different) has now largely been discredited

It may have been but I would be worried enough being carried down an extending ladder by  what in my father's (also a fireman) day was referred to as a "Hairy a**sed fireman" I can't think of a single woman who I would physically trust to carry me down and I am just a pound or two over the 12st I quoted.

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

My Mum used to say that she didn't want to be equal with men as she'd been superior to them all her life.

You and I couldn't have had the same mother could we?  Mine also said she would miss the little things like having the door held open for her etc.

[jeddlad]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

It may make you smile but it is verging on the illegal. (Equalities Act)

As a gay man myself, I won't be worrying about the Equalities act this time.  

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

And there lies the stupidity of such legislation. We now have a miriad of situations through life were equality is an ass. We have 6ft 4inch 18 stone burly male police ossifers locking arms with 5ft 2 inch 8 stone police girls trying to contain eeejuts. This is why we have male and female seperated at such as running events etc in the olympics as we are most certainly NOT equal in many ways. Women are way better at many things than blokes and vice versa but too many people are frightened to state facts.

Yes I’m sure burly 6’4” 18 stone male coppers are better at bearing the shit out of miscreants, but probably 5’2” 8 stone girly cops are better at defusing a situation and thus rendering the former type of copper less necessary. In other words, they make a different contribution but an equally valuable one. Unless of course you think that the only role for the cops is beating up the bad guys?

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I’m sure burly 6’4” 18 stone male coppers are better at bearing the shit out of miscreants, but probably 5’2” 8 stone girly cops are better at defusing a situation and thus rendering the former type of copper less necessary. In other words, they make a different contribution but an equally valuable one. Unless of course you think that the only role for the cops is beating up the bad guys?

As I have said equal but different.

[Captain Pegg]

34 minutes ago, jeddlad said:

As a gay man myself, I won't be worrying about the Equalities act this time.  

I’m terribly worried, not about the Foxes because I only asked a question about them. It’s the wives that I imagined that are the problem, I may be oppressing them.

 

But at least it’s stopped me worrying that I’d misplaced an apostrophe in post #66 and was going to be called out for it.

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Captain Pegg
To correct a grammatical error ?

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

And there lies the stupidity of such legislation. We now have a miriad of situations through life were equality is an ass. We have 6ft 4inch 18 stone burly male police ossifers locking arms with 5ft 2 inch 8 stone police girls trying to contain eeejuts. This is why we have male and female seperated at such as running events etc in the olympics as we are most certainly NOT equal in many ways. Women are way better at many things than blokes and vice versa but too many people are frightened to state facts.

Watch out for the snowflakes. it could be a white Christmas you go on like that

47 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I’m sure burly 6’4” 18 stone male coppers are better at bearing the shit out of miscreants, but probably 5’2” 8 stone girly cops are better at defusing a situation and thus rendering the former type of copper less necessary. In other words, they make a different contribution but an equally valuable one. Unless of course you think that the only role for the cops is beating up the bad guys?

I think thats what he said

[Victor Vectis]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I’m sure burly 6’4” 18 stone male coppers are better at bearing the shit out of miscreants, but probably 5’2” 8 stone girly cops are better at defusing a situation and thus rendering the former type of copper less necessary. In other words, they make a different contribution but an equally valuable one. Unless of course you think that the only role for the cops is beating up the bad guys?

Good heavens.

It must be the season of goodwill or something.

 

I find myself agreeing with NN!

 

?

[noone]

On 19/12/2020 at 09:10, Athy said:

Is that colour prejudice?

Racism is just a pigment of the imagination!?

 

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I’m sure burly 6’4” 18 stone male coppers are better at bearing the shit out of miscreants, but probably 5’2” 8 stone girly cops are better at defusing a situation and thus rendering the former type of copper less necessary. In other words, they make a different contribution but an equally valuable one. Unless of course you think that the only role for the cops is beating up the bad guys?

As a pilot I doubt you have ever been in a situation that has put you in a very dangerous situation amongst violent people. Trying to maintain a cordon of people pushing against you and often being violent then facts are there will always be a weak link. If you stick a small female in a line of burly blokes that point will collapse and also the blokes either side will be trying to protect the female cos thats real life. The problem with forums like this is that clueless people who have spent their lives in an office block or some other safe job actualy think they have some clue about how such things work, reality is they dont. Its only over very recent years that female police a have been allowed into such as a psu as its long been understood that its a physical job. Police women do many jobs better than blokes but of course it cant be seen for male/female roles any more   As for defusing the situation, thats pie in the sky in many situations that abound in every day policing.

[enigmatic]

Perhaps the real irresponsible decision taken by the Foxes all along was to leave their wives in charge of the navigation  

Edited December 21, 2020 by enigmatic

[Mike Todd]

3 hours ago, Jerra said:

It may have been but I would be worried enough being carried down an extending ladder by  what in my father's (also a fireman) day was referred to as a "Hairy a**sed fireman" I can't think of a single woman who I would physically trust to carry me down and I am just a pound or two over the 12st I quoted.

You and I couldn't have had the same mother could we?  Mine also said she would miss the little things like having the door held open for her etc.

If she has passed the physical then she would be as able as any man who also passed the test

3 hours ago, jeddlad said:

As a gay man myself, I won't be worrying about the Equalities act this time.  

More than one protected characteristic was involved.

[doratheexplorer]

4 hours ago, Jerra said:

Long long before women's lib and sexual equality I was brought up knowing women were "equal but different".   By that I mean both sexes should have the same respect and standing but each sex naturally had some things they were better at/more inclined to want than the other sex.   There is no higher animal that I can think of which doesn't naturally have different traits for the sexes.

 

For example going back to my main interest, birds in some species the male builds the nest (sometimes even nests) and the female chooses.   There are even examples where the eggs are fully incubated by the male.    Neither male or female have different standings just naturally different inclinations.

 

I do not accept that all jobs are capable of being done by both sexes.    To take my brothers work (firefighter can't say fireman as they aren't all men) he despaired of some of the females being able to carry a 12 stone person down a ladder.

However, firefighters are often required to squeeze into very tight spaces.  So it's just a case of ensuring your team has a range of attributes and deploying them accordingly.

[Mike Todd]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I’m sure burly 6’4” 18 stone male coppers are better at bearing the shit out of miscreants, but probably 5’2” 8 stone girly cops are better at defusing a situation and thus rendering the former type of copper less necessary. In other words, they make a different contribution but an equally valuable one. Unless of course you think that the only role for the cops is beating up the bad guys?

I am sure that a 5'2" male police officer would object to being described as girly solely on the basis of height. Remember there is not height qualification for entry into the police service.

[mrsmelly]

24 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I am sure that a 5'2" male police officer would object to being described as girly solely on the basis of height. Remember there is not height qualification for entry into the police service.

Correct, another ridiculous truth.

[Jerra]

31 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

If she has passed the physical then she would be as able as any man who also passed the test

According to bro who has had to carry people for real the carry in the physical is nowhere near as punishing as say down 3 lengths of a ladder.

30 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

However, firefighters are often required to squeeze into very tight spaces.  So it's just a case of ensuring your team has a range of attributes and deploying them accordingly.

So as I said equal but different.   Strange however Bro never mentioned tight squeezes in his BA days..   (Sorry BA equals breathing apparatus the only time you would be inside squeezed or not)

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

According to bro who has had to carry people for real the carry in the physical is nowhere near as punishing as say down 3 lengths of a ladder.

So as I said equal but different.   Strange however Bro never mentioned tight squeezes in his BA days..   (Sorry BA equals breathing apparatus the only time you would be inside squeezed or not)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008xy6

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Correct, another ridiculous truth.

Prevented me from joining in 1980.

 

The height requirement (for Cleveland) back then was 5' 10".

 

I was 5' 9 3/4" so didn't get past the first hurdle. A colleagues husband told me I should have lied on my application form which surprised me a bit as he was a serving copper!

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Prevented me from joining in 1980.

 

The height requirement (for Cleveland) back then was 5' 10".

 

I was 5' 9 3/4" so didn't get past the first hurdle. A colleagues husband told me I should have lied on my application form which surprised me a bit as he was a serving copper!

Yes different forces had differing requirements, some forces back then were 5ft 8 inches. I am only just 5ft 10inches. What amazes me in all this ridiculous legislation is some jobs need certain standards be it physical, size or be it academic. People expect that schoolteachers have attained a certain academic standard to be allowed to teach and rightly so yet those same people dont have the sense to realise that a physical presence is often needed in such as policing. Police now have to attain some academic qualifications, we used to sit an entrance exam and that still applies yet the physical bit has been swept under the carpet due to stupid legislation.

[IanD]

Are people implying that one of the Foxes is actually a 5'2" girl? If so that's a *very* good disguise... ?

[Mike Todd]

54 minutes ago, Jerra said:

According to bro who has had to carry people for real the carry in the physical is nowhere near as punishing as say down 3 lengths of a ladder.

So as I said equal but different.   Strange however Bro never mentioned tight squeezes in his BA days..   (Sorry BA equals breathing apparatus the only time you would be inside squeezed or not)

But is that a necessary physical requirement?

39 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes different forces had differing requirements, some forces back then were 5ft 8 inches. I am only just 5ft 10inches. What amazes me in all this ridiculous legislation is some jobs need certain standards be it physical, size or be it academic. People expect that schoolteachers have attained a certain academic standard to be allowed to teach and rightly so yet those same people dont have the sense to realise that a physical presence is often needed in such as policing. Police now have to attain some academic qualifications, we used to sit an entrance exam and that still applies yet the physical bit has been swept under the carpet due to stupid legislation.

The physical requirements have not been "swept under the carpet". They are set out quite clearly on various web pages. What may have changed is the professional view of what the job entails and unnecessary 'macho' style limits are not required. I'd never have passed the physical even if I passed the height!

 

As it stands at the moment, like it or not, is that the standards are set by the professionals charges with delivering the services, not Joe Public.

[Jerra]

13 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But is that a necessary physical requirement?

So how do you get the unconscious person down the ladder?   I will ask if it still happens I know he has had to do it.

15 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

As it stands at the moment, like it or not, is that the standards are set by the professionals charges with delivering the services, not Joe Public.

And often those down below what I always hear called the "shiny A**es" so called because they do desk jobs are critical of the standards set.   They often feel the highups have forgotten what being on the front line actually entails. 

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

As a pilot I doubt you have ever been in a situation that has put you in a very dangerous situation amongst violent people. Trying to maintain a cordon of people pushing against you and often being violent then facts are there will always be a weak link. If you stick a small female in a line of burly blokes that point will collapse and also the blokes either side will be trying to protect the female cos thats real life. The problem with forums like this is that clueless people who have spent their lives in an office block or some other safe job actualy think they have some clue about how such things work, reality is they dont. Its only over very recent years that female police a have been allowed into such as a psu as its long been understood that its a physical job. Police women do many jobs better than blokes but of course it cant be seen for male/female roles any more   As for defusing the situation, thats pie in the sky in many situations that abound in every day policing.

Ha! You have seen a bunch of disgruntled bears angered because you can’t get them home due to weather etc!

 

How much of your professional time was spent maintaining a cordon of people pushing against you, vs the time spent doing more general coppering, pounding the beat and giving naughty yoofs a clip behind the ears for apple scrumping etc?

 

Of course those are the times you remember, but I suggest that nearly all your professional career did not involve the use of strong force to defend yourself. In fact probably the girly cops were better at the stuff that you did most of the time. You should feel ashamed and emasculated!