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Grey Water Storage


magpie patrick

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37 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

What you term "domestic grey water" comprises what a boater would call "black" and "grey" water and in drainage circles is referred to as "foul water" I.e the output of toilets, baths, showers, sinks, washing machines etc. "Surface water" is the runoff from roofs and paved surfaces. Storm and foul water have been separated for years, with "combined sewers" only found in older built up areas. Foul water is treated at sewage treatment works before discharge; surface water is released to water courses, sometimes directly, sometimes via settling ponds or silt traps to allow suspended sediments to be trapped (as long as these are maintained).

Aye, so accepting it's grey and black water, point taken  ....  emptying grey only from a boat into surface water drain such as you'd get at the side of a road or on pedestrian area is a no-no. Much of the urban canal systems go through older urban areas.  I think we agree with each other.  

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49 minutes ago, twbm said:

Having recently purchased a motorhome, I started using it with an 'I've been boating so I get the 12v / limited water etc style of living' approach.  It's different, mostly because of the limited capacities, exacerbated by the low but real risk of being taken to a weighbridge - a full fresh water and waste tank can take you way over the max vehicle weight, changes the vehicle handling enough to be a nuisance, as well as not being usable without dumping grey water somewhere you shouldn't, so water management is a daily consideration.  Motorhomes have one big advantage - gravity empties the tank.   

 

Thinking of any boat I've ever hired / owned / had a ride on, there's going to be some expensive re-working required to get a grey water capability that can cope with the fresh water capacity. The obvious place might be where the fresh water is, replacing a single tank with two - but even then there would be a lot of extra waste pipe work, and maybe pumps, to get through bilges / bulkeads etc., and an obvious drop in capacity. If the tank is a structural part of the boat that wonlt help either. Another option for those with pumpouts would be to go to cassette toilet and convert the pump out tank, or just route grey water to it and pay to have it emptied more often - but again more waste pipes to route, and noting the comments re septic tanks.     

Having had a motorhome for almost ten years now, one of the first things we learned was to keep fresh water storage to a minimum, and to empty the holding tank/s on leaving a campsite. As you say, it’s all to easy to go over the weight limit, something that as a boater I never had to think about, in fact having a ton of water in the tank was a positive benefit.

We tend now to keep two or three five litre bottles for fresh water needs, and seldom have more than 20 litres in the fresh water tank.

 

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30 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

All the fish, birds, rats etc pee and poop into the canal and no-one is trying to stop them doing it!

Nappies for fish!

1 hour ago, twbm said:

Thinking of any boat I've ever hired / owned / had a ride on, there's going to be some expensive re-working required to get a grey water capability that can cope with the fresh water capacity.

After our boats are converted to electric, there will be an unused diesel tank that can be repurposed. Unfortunately, not the same size as the water tank, but some of the water we ingest goes out as moisture in breath, sweat, as well as black water (actually more sort of brown, or blue depending on how much anti-pong is in it).

 

Jen

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1 hour ago, frahkn said:

I can envisage a system where fresh-water tanks had a bladder which allowed the same volume to be occupied with grey water as the fresh was used. In such a case, the grey water could be pumped into the drain which is found below most fresh water outlets, as new fresh was filled.

This assumes that they are 'drains' and not just sumps of course.

 

In many places, the drain under the water tap goes to a 4" pipe under the towpath which empties into the canal.

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1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 some of the water we ingest goes out as moisture in breath, sweat, as well as black water (actually more sort of brown, or blue depending on how much anti-pong is in it).

But against that, some of the liquid we ingest at canalside premises is later discharged into the black water tank!

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think the concern is the volume.

 

That's it - or certainly a large part of it. If one were to design a new facilities block assuming that every boat the pumped out the loo or used the elsan disposal also emptied a grey water tank then the required capacity will be quite a bit bigger, with implications for both dwell time at the facility and pipework or tank size. If combined black/grey tanks became the norm then pump outs will either take longer or be more frequent depending on the holding tank size 

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22 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Whatever could go wrong? as some who has called the fire brigade following a trench collapse

He was stood in the bucket, and only half-way down the 12 foot deep hole, plenty of time (and power) to lift him out.

 

Mind you, wouldn't of wanted to lose him, he was the only Non-Latvian, English speaker, amongst the crew.

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9 hours ago, magpie patrick said:


First, the practicality of storage - logically boats only create grey water at the rate they consume fresh water, probably less as some of the fresh water is used for drinking, and fresh water has to be stored somewhere so in theory storage of the grey water takes no more room ...

Not sure I agree with your logic - or how your kidneys work.  Once you've drunk it I'm afraid it still figures in the grey water equation.

 

This topic has exercised my brain for some time.  If you take the total number of boats, etc on the network and multiply by the volume of water discharged, what does it add up to?   If you plug that source, how much would CRT have to spend to make up the shortfall?  Where would it all come from.  I reckon I'm saving CRT, and hence me, money every time I pull the plug out!???

 

 

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1 minute ago, Opener said:

Not sure I agree with your logic - or how your kidneys work.  Once you've drunk it I'm afraid it still figures in the grey water equation.

Only if you pee in the sink surely? :o 

 

4 minutes ago, Opener said:

This topic has exercised my brain for some time.  If you take the total number of boats, etc on the network and multiply by the volume of water discharged, what does it add up to?   If you plug that source, how much would CRT have to spend to make up the shortfall?  Where would it all come from.  I reckon I'm saving CRT, and hence me, money every time I pull the plug out!???

 

 

Bizzard will be along soon with a scheme to desalinate water at sea level and use it to feed water points at all major summit levels... :D 

 

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6 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Nappies for fish!

After our boats are converted to electric, there will be an unused diesel tank that can be repurposed. Unfortunately, not the same size as the water tank, but some of the water we ingest goes out as moisture in breath, sweat, as well as black water (actually more sort of brown, or blue depending on how much anti-pong is in it).

 

Jen

How about mandating anaerobic digester systems so that all water (and poo etc) is processed into a fine powder plus clean water with the gas produced powering the engine? (I think I have invented a perpetual motion machine?)

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Just now, Mike Todd said:

How about mandating anaerobic digester systems so that all water (and poo etc) is processed into a fine powder plus clean water with the gas produced powering the engine? (I think I have invented a perpetual motion machine?)

Do you really mean ' perpetual MOTION'?

8 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Only if you pee in the sink surely? :o 

 

 

Oops!! Good point......?

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11 hours ago, frahkn said:

I can envisage a system where fresh-water tanks had a bladder which allowed the same volume to be occupied with grey water as the fresh was used. In such a case, the grey water could be pumped into the drain which is found below most fresh water outlets, as new fresh was filled.

This assumes that they are 'drains' and not just sumps of course.

 

My thinking too; it’s the obvious solution if there are restrictions on space. Just need to be able to pump it out then.

 

11 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Although it's true that grey water storage would take up no more space than the fresh water tank, on some boats that's quite a lot of space. My water tank is 1,275 litres or 1.275m3. Some narrowboats have tanks as big as that too. It's a big chunk of space and for those who also like to carry big, permanently mounted black water tanks on their boats it might be a problem even on a new build.

From where it then seeps back into the waterway no doubt. Filtered to some extent I suppose depending on the make up of the ground it's emptied onto.

The solution proposed by @frahkn above resolves that particular issue.

11 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

For which the logical answer is to reduce the size of the fresh water tank to allow space for the foul. Not really a problem on a new build, albeit that both taking on water and pumping out will be more frequent. I agree it could be more of an issue as a retrofit.

If overside discharge of grey water were to be banned there would be no point in having separate black and grey water tanks. It could all go into a single foul water tank. For boats with a dump through toilet this would presumably require a larger tank located in/adjacent to the bathroom.

 

Not really necessary if you have a bladder in the existing tank as proposed by @frahkn above; fresh water one side of the bladder, waste water on the other side.  The volume of fresh water drawn from one side of the bladder becomes, in due course, the waste water drained back to the other side of the bladder. The total volume stored will only ever be less than started in the tank (unless you end up pouring bottled water down the drain).

 

Ian

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17 minutes ago, DaveR said:

Keeping grey water in a tank, what happens to the food waste from crockery and pans? No matter how well you wipe them there will still be some left over.

Well that is in part why it's grey water - there are similar and bigger semi-solids in black water

Don't know about other boats, but on Juno the size of the plug hole severely limits what can go down the sink

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7 hours ago, David Mack said:

Not good if the bladder leaks though.

 

2 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Now you really are talking about the realities of life!

 

One of the consequences of the inexorable march of time! ?

 

Ian

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23 hours ago, frahkn said:

I can envisage a system where fresh-water tanks had a bladder which allowed the same volume to be occupied with grey water as the fresh was used.

 

Thinking about this - not only is the space shared, but there is an incentive to empty the grey water tank - you can't have any more drinking water until you've got rid of the waste - bit like me contemplating another cup of coffee :) 

Edited by magpie patrick
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9 hours ago, David Mack said:

Not good if the bladder leaks though.

I've a vague feeling that (some) road tankers do this, the tank can be filled with say milk for human consumption, emptied, then the "other half" filled with something which is not food grade without contaminating the other side of the bladder. I assume there is a robust procedure for leak checking...

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