Waterless coolant

[blackrose]

Apologies is this has been discussed before, I couldn't find it, but does anyone use waterless coolant in their boat engine or central heating system, or are the advantages outweighed by the cost?

 

https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

I looked to see if they quoted a specific heat capacity and was unable to find it. What I did find was a statement that engines would run hotter than with a 50-50 antifreeze mixture so its probably less and even less than a 30% antifreeze mixture.

 

With the propensity for boat builders to fit undersized skin tanks I could not recommend it.

 

I can't see long life antifreeze being any more expensive.

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can't see long life antifreeze being any more expensive.

 

At £60 for five litres I won't be using this coolant in place of water and antifreeze!

 

 

 

[OldGoat]

Sledgehammer cracking a nut.

May be fine fo an automotive application where the total liquid volume is small, but in a NB where there are cauliflowers, skin tanks, radiators and Lord-knows-else, methinks not.

 

Good for sales of snake oil

 

but nowt else.

 

What's wrong with a water based mixture. Works in my tub??

 

Narrow Boating is most successful with middle to late 20th century technology. Most attempts, I submit, to sex it up with some magic gizmos usually ends in tears (even if it gets that far).

 

From my earlier work experiences - the KISS principle is paramount - else tears obtain.

 

(while I'm having a winge - putting  wet room concepts that work in a domestic environment where the structure is RIGID may / will present insurmountable-challenges to a NB environment which actually flexes - though  that's not immediately apparrent.

 

Sadly I feel I'm a Voice Crying In The Wilderness (plink, plonk - thank you Handel)

 

Enough - The Management is about to serve Supper.

 

I love you all....

 

[zenataomm]

And then a 30/- clip fails or a hose splits or a thermostat forgets what to do.

Not only are you crying at how much money has just dumped itself in your bilge but Gaffer Tape and Cut Water are going to be relied on to get you to civilisation.

One extreme to another.

[noddyboater]

There used to be - or still is, a similar product pushed to the owners of expensive classic cars. 

Water Wetter. It's like water, but wetter. Yeah  right, order me 100 litres please. Not sure how my Gardner has managed without it since 1937.

[Slim]

19 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Sadly I feel I'm a Voice Crying In The Wilderness (plink, plonk - thank you Handel)

I'm with you there so you're not the only one. The mid to late 20th century I understand

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, noddyboater said:

There used to be - or still is, a similar product pushed to the owners of expensive classic cars. 

Water Wetter. It's like water, but wetter. Yeah  right, order me 100 litres please. Not sure how my Gardner has managed without it since 1937.

You make water wetter by adding a spot of detergent or soap.

[blackrose]

Yes it's expensive but I think the point some of you are missing is that it's meant to last the lifetime of the engine. No need for antifreeze changes every 2 (for blue) or 5 years (for red).

 

I'm not saying I'd want to use it either but surely you can see the advantages of not having to periodically change antifreeze and the cost would probably be cheaper in the long run - unless of course you had a coolant leak and it ended up mixed with oily bilge water!

3 hours ago, OldGoat said:

 

What's wrong with a water based mixture. Works in my tub??

 

The fact that water is corrosive and unless you keep changing a water based coolant your engine, skin tank, etc, will start to corrode from the inside?

Edited December 12, 2020 by blackrose

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Narrow Boating is most successful with middle to late 20th century technology. Most attempts, I submit, to sex it up with some magic gizmos usually ends in tears (even if it gets that far).

 

From my earlier work experiences - the KISS principle is paramount - else tears obtain.

 

 

Try telling that to all the lithium battery aficinardos on this forum. There are lots of 21st century technologies that work and some are better than what we're currently using, they're just more expensive at the moment. But eventually most of us will be using them.

[Tony Brooks]

11 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Try telling that to all the lithium battery aficinardos on this forum. There are lots of 21st century technologies that work and some are better than what we're currently using, they're just more expensive at the moment. But eventually most of us will be using them.

Yes, but not one where a vital characteristic for it to do its job well seems to be hidden and from what is published it will do the job less well that what it replaces.

[dmr]

15 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Sledgehammer cracking a nut.

May be fine fo an automotive application where the total liquid volume is small, but in a NB where there are cauliflowers, skin tanks, radiators and Lord-knows-else, methinks not.

 

Good for sales of snake oil

 

but nowt else.

 

What's wrong with a water based mixture. Works in my tub??

 

Narrow Boating is most successful with middle to late 20th century technology. Most attempts, I submit, to sex it up with some magic gizmos usually ends in tears (even if it gets that far).

 

From my earlier work experiences - the KISS principle is paramount - else tears obtain.

 

(while I'm having a winge - putting  wet room concepts that work in a domestic environment where the structure is RIGID may / will present insurmountable-challenges to a NB environment which actually flexes - though  that's not immediately apparrent.

 

Sadly I feel I'm a Voice Crying In The Wilderness (plink, plonk - thank you Handel)

 

Enough - The Management is about to serve Supper.

 

I love you all....

 

In general I agree with you, the rise of temperamental Bluetooth over good sensible wires is the one that gets me. But, waterless coolant does look good and anything that really prevents corrosion must be good. The boat next to me is having big engine troubles and its starting to look like a wet liner rusted through.

If "red" antifreeze had not been invented then I would be tempted by waterless but it would be £300 to £400 and the cost of leakage or accidental loss would be a worry. Red antifreeze is good and having to do a change or refresh every 5 years is not too big a deal, though mine needs doing and I'm not looking forward to it.

 

.............Dave

[churchward]

16 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

At £60 for five litres I won't be using this coolant in place of water and antifreeze!

 

 

 

No nor me.  I have seen in used in a car though and it worked well enough.  One aspect of it is that it does not create much if any pressure in the system when hot which can be a benefit.

 

However the coolant system on my narrowboat has around 25 litres capacity so that makes a fill-up quite expensive.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, churchward said:

No nor me.  I have seen in used in a car though and it worked well enough.  One aspect of it is that it does not create much if any pressure in the system when hot which can be a benefit.

 

However the coolant system on my narrowboat has around 25 litres capacity so that makes a fill-up quite expensive.

How so, have you seen the coefficient of expansion quoted? If not the expanding liquid will pressurise the system unless you take the pressure cap off or fit a lower pressure one.  I would suggest that the apparent lower specific heat capacity may make running with it a bit risky for the internal hot spots.

[Momac]

18 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

At £60 for five litres I won't be using this coolant in place of water and antifreeze!

I bought 20 litres of ready mixed glycol coolant not so long ago for £24 including delivery. 

So the waterless product  is ten times the price.

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, MartynG said:

I bought 20 litres of ready mixed glycol coolant not so long ago for £24 including delivery. 

So the waterless product  is ten times the price.

 

It doesn't help that my cooling system takes over a hundred litres.

 

It's a badly designed skin tank, but it cools the engine sufficiently even when crossing the Ribble or coming up the Severn, so I'm not intending to change it.  I'm not going to be adding coolant at £12 a litre though! 

[dor]

Isn't "waterless coolant" what Lister owners call "air"?

[Phoenix_V]

Vetus used to market a Deutz oil cooled engine

https://www.deutz.com/en/products/engines/detail/369/

[Stilllearning]

The waterless coolant that I saw being used on an episode of Wheeler Dealers had the huge advantage of not expanding as it heated up. This was shown by the engine being run ( a TR6 I think) then the rad cap being taken off.....nothing happened. Thus, much less likelihood of blown hoses and clips, no corrosion either. The freezing point was way lower as well, and boiling point was up near 200c .

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

The waterless coolant that I saw being used on an episode of Wheeler Dealers had the huge advantage of not expanding as it heated up. This was shown by the engine being run ( a TR6 I think) then the rad cap being taken off.....nothing happened. Thus, much less likelihood of blown hoses and clips, no corrosion either. The freezing point was way lower as well, and boiling point was up near 200c .

It must be a wonderful substance to not expand when heated, I cant think of any other item with those properties

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It must be a wonderful substance to not expand when heated, I cant think of any other item with those properties

 

Heatshrink tubing?

[Stilllearning]

25 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It must be a wonderful substance to not expand when heated, I cant think of any other item with those properties

Watch the episode, I’m fairly sure it’s the one on the TR6.

ETA

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Stilllearning

[churchward]

23 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It must be a wonderful substance to not expand when heated, I cant think of any other item with those properties

I have seen the waterless fluid in a car and even after a 20 mile run it was possible to unscrew the radiator cap.  The fluid had no pressure to it. It is not quite that it does not expand at all just that it expands very little at the temperatures of a car radiator which is far below and vaporisation point of the fluid.

 

The fluid has almost double (191 deg C) the boiling point of water so the normal operating temperature is far below it.

 

This tech sheet shows how little pressure/expansion of the fluid has compared to water.

 

It shows the mmhg of water as 760 at 100 dec C but the fluid only 28 at the same temp.  So the expansion is very small and is hardly noticeable in pressure in the radiator system.

 

006974_01_EVANS_Catalog_hi_perf.pdf (evanscoolant.com)

[nb Innisfree]

As I understand it the primary reason for pressurisation of coolant is to allow cars to operate anywhere in the world, ie at various altitudes, secondary is increasing power outputs and limited room meaning smaller radiators. Inland boats don't have probs with altitude, and high power outputs, when I sold Innisfree it had done thousands of hours trouble free running unpressurised. 

[Chewbacka]

3 hours ago, churchward said:

I have seen the waterless fluid in a car and even after a 20 mile run it was possible to unscrew the radiator cap.  The fluid had no pressure to it. It is not quite that it does not expand at all just that it expands very little at the temperatures of a car radiator which is far below and vaporisation point of the fluid.

 

The fluid has almost double (191 deg C) the boiling point of water so the normal operating temperature is far below it.

 

This tech sheet shows how little pressure/expansion of the fluid has compared to water.

 

It shows the mmhg of water as 760 at 100 dec C but the fluid only 28 at the same temp.  So the expansion is very small and is hardly noticeable in pressure in the radiator system.

 

006974_01_EVANS_Catalog_hi_perf.pdf (evanscoolant.com)

mmHg is the vapour pressure and at 100c water has a high vapour pressure because it is boiling.  It is not a measure of thermal expansion.  I did note that the flash point is 120c so don’t smoke if your engine overheats and you take the coolant cap off to investigate...........