Faulty Alternator Regulator?

[eid]

I've noticed recently that my alternator is now putting out 14.6v. In the summer, I removed a Sterling regulator as it didn't seem to be working. The effect of this at the time was that the charge voltage went up from 14.3 to 14.4v. No problem.

However, now it's putting out 14.6v which is a bit high. I'm not sure when this started as I've only begun using my engine to charge the batteries this month as the solar was taking care of it before that.

 

This is my alternator:

 

 

Apart from the 2 purple wires whih are attached to the regulator but nothing else, I have a positive cable attached to B+ and 2 cables attached to the bit circled in red.

 

So, is my regulator knackered?

 

If so, can anyone identify this alternator.

 

Lastly, what are the cable connected to the red circled bit for?

 

 

Thanks for reading.

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, eid said:

I've noticed recently that my alternator is now putting out 14.6v. In the summer, I removed a Sterling regulator as it didn't seem to be working. The effect of this at the time was that the charge voltage went up from 14.3 to 14.4v. No problem.

However, now it's putting out 14.6v which is a bit high. I'm not sure when this started as I've only begun using my engine to charge the batteries this month as the solar was taking care of it before that.

 

This is my alternator:

 

 

Apart from the 2 purple wires whih are attached to the regulator but nothing else, I have a positive cable attached to B+ and 2 cables attached to the bit circled in red.

 

So, is my regulator knackered?

 

If so, can anyone identify this alternator.

 

Lastly, what are the cable connected to the red circled bit for?

 

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Guess because I don't know the alternator.

 

12V feed to the regulator, warning lamp wire and possibly a battery sense connection. If the later is correct ensure all terminations are clean and tight because a high resistance on a battery sense cable will raise the charging voltage.

 

I await more definitive info with interest.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

now it's putting out 14.6v which is a bit high.

 

That depends on what type of batteries you have. Vented FLA's would be OK.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Lastly, what are the cable connected to the red circled bit for?

Your 'big'  wire that you have connected to B+ can also (alternatively) be connected to this blade connector (your circled red)

I seem to remember that the wire that IS connceted to one of the blade fuses is the Tacho - but maybe not.

 

I have the same on my alternators.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[eid]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Guess because I don't know the alternator.

 

12V feed to the regulator, warning lamp wire and possibly a battery sense connection. If the later is correct ensure all terminations are clean and tight because a high resistance on a battery sense cable will raise the charging voltage.

 

I await more definitive info with interest.

I'll do some tests once my charge is complete. I'm having trouble tracing where these cables go because they're wrapped up so well. I'll try doing some continuity tests. Why would the regulator require a 12V feed? Also, what is a battery sense? Is it to tell the regulator what the voltage is at the batteries?

 

 

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That depends on what type of batteries you have. Vented FLA's would be OK.

 

 

Your 'big'  wire that you have connected to B+ can also (alternatively) be connected to this blade connector (your circled red)

I seem to remember that the wire that IS connceted to one of the blade fuses is the Tacho - but maybe not.

 

I have the same on my alternators.

 

I have Leoch lead carbon batteries which don't seem to be performing as advertised. Unless I didn't use high enough voltages to charge them last winter. I think it's going to be either FLA or lithium next time : /

 

You say my positive charge cable can be connected to the blade connector? I'm puzzled by this. Apart from it seeming rather small,  Is it just a positive out connection then? I feel like you may be talking about the other blade connection above B+ which isn't highlighted in red.

 

When you say Tacho, do you mean the engine hours counter? Just want to be sure.

 

 

Thank you both for your replies!

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, eid said:

You say my positive charge cable can be connected to the blade connector? I'm puzzled by this. Apart from it seeming rather small,

 

There is (normally) one-large and two-smaller blade connectors in the 'connector' you have marked red.

The big one is designed for the 'heavy' main ouput cable.

 

Tacho = rev counter.

 

23 minutes ago, eid said:

I have Leoch lead carbon batteries

 

I don't know what voltage the manufacturere quote for Lead carbon batteries, you would need to check

 

Edit to add now I have checked for you :

Manufacturer states 'ideal charge voltage' as 14.1 - 14.6v 

So, you should be maximising with your 14.6v alternator output.

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[eid]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There is (normally) one-large and two-smaller blade connectors in the 'connector' you have marked red.

The big one is designed for the 'heavy' main ouput cable.

 

Tacho = rev counter.

 

 

I don't know what voltage the manufacturere quote for Lead carbon batteries, you would need to check

 

 

Ah I see. Sorry, I'll try and get a closer photo/look.

I guess I could disconnect these wires and see what effect it has.

 

The manufacturers data sheet doesn't mention charge voltage. It does however show equalisation voltage of 14.1-14.4V. This seems strange to me and I wonder if it's a bad translation. The retailer's site says a charge voltage of 14.1-14.6V which although sounds great in this situation, has always just muddied the issue even more in my mind considering the data sheet. Also, they changed that after I bought them. It was either 14.4 or 14.5 max before.

 

Thanks Alan.

[eid]

I had a look. It is just the two connectors which have 2 quite thin wires connected to them.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, eid said:

I had a look. It is just the two connectors which have 2 quite thin wires connected to them.

 

The bit circled in red doesn't appear to have any wires connected. Hopefully @Sir Nibble can view and comment.

[Tony Brooks]

I thought you were talking about the three wires that seem to be coming from out of the alternator.

 

The two cables on the terminal block are probably warning lamp and 12v feed possibly via the ignition.

 

If those wires coming out of the machine go to an  external regulator then t suggest to me that any internal regulator may be disconnected. If so the external one may be temperate compensating now it has got colder.

 

I await input from SirN

Edited December 12, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, eid said:

 

 

Apart from the 2 purple wires whih are attached to the regulator but nothing else, I have a positive cable attached to B+ and 2 cables attached to the bit circled in red.

 

 

You say that you have disconnected a Sterling external regulator.... are the two purple wires, that disappear into the alternator, the wires that are no longer connected to the Sterling regulator, therefore now connected to nothing outside the alternator?

 

apropos nothing much:

 

My guess is that, at 14.6V, you wont be damaging your batteries, or not much in the short term.

 

On some of the information you have been given, (datasheet/retailer), it would seem strange to have an equalisation voltage less than the normal charge voltage. My understanding is that an equalisation charge is deliberately very high, in order to" blow the sulphation off the plates", (forgive the laymans terminology).

[eid]

20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I thought you were talking about the three wires that seem to be coming from out of the alternator.

 

The two cables on the terminal block are probably warning lamp and 12v feed possibly via the ignition.

 

If those wires coming out of the machine go to an  external regulator then t suggest to me that any internal regulator may be disconnected. If so the external one may be temperate compensating now it has got colder.

 

I await input from SirN

 

I probably should have posted a photo of it in situ. The purple wires coming out of it were for the Sterling Alternator Regulator which I removed. They are no longer connected to anything. I was told (in a previous thread) that disconnecting these would make it use the internal regulator instead.

 

There are now 2 wires connected to the terminal block, and one large wire connected to B+ which is the positive out.

 

I'll test these 2 wires once my charging finishes.

 

Thanks again.

[eid]

4 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

You say that you have disconnected a Sterling external regulator.... are the two purple wires, that disappear into the alternator, the wires that are no longer connected to the Sterling regulator, therefore now connected to nothing outside the alternator?

Yes, this is correct.

 

4 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

apropos nothing much:

 

My guess is that, at 14.6V, you wont be damaging your batteries, or not much in the short term.

 

Ah this is good to know. Ive connected this temporary voltage regulator in the meantime:

 

4 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

On some of the information you have been given, (datasheet/retailer), it would seem strange to have an equalisation voltage less than the normal charge voltage. My understanding is that an equalisation charge is deliberately very high, in order to" blow the sulphation off the plates", (forgive the laymans terminology).

 

Yes, this is my understanding too.

 

Thank you Richard

[eid]

 

I disconnected the 2 wires (white and black/yellow) and the effect was that the alternator no longer put out a charge to my batteries. The tacho worked fine. Whilst connected, they both individually read 12.2V when tested.

 

Does this give anyone an idea as to what they are for and where they might go?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

was the ignition on when you read the voltages? If so one may be a permeate 12v feed either direct from the battery positive line or via the ignition switch while the other could be from the warning lamp. Although colours can change in the loom or the multi-plug(s) have you had  a look at the back of the control panel so see f you can identify those colours and cable thickness

 

Don't you have a wiring diagram for your engine?

Edited December 12, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[BEngo]

They provide the power to initially  start up the alternator and the output for a warning light.  One may also sense the voltage at the batteries so as to overcome any losses in the wiring between the alternator and the batteries. The internal regulator will be connected to the two terminals and to the alternator case.

N

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, eid said:

 

I disconnected the 2 wires (white and black/yellow) and the effect was that the alternator no longer put out a charge to my batteries. The tacho worked fine. Whilst connected, they both individually read 12.2V when tested.

 

Does this give anyone an idea as to what they are for and where they might go?

 

 

 

 

Found this (for my alternator)

 

 

 

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Edit to add now I have checked for you :

Manufacturer states 'ideal charge voltage' as 14.1 - 14.6v 

So, you should be maximising with your 14.6v alternator output.

 

 

So it sounds like your alternator is charging at an ideal maximum voltage. What's the problem exactly?

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Found this (for my alternator)

 

 

 

 

That diagram look familiar. But he OP's alternator is not an A127, its more like the Mitsubishi ones fitted to Vetus engines.

[Sir Nibble]

I'm pretty sure that's a Hitachi alternator. 14.6V sounds good to me. Bear in mind that the voltage you measure can vary greatly according to load (battery state of charge) and speed.

[eid]

18 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

was the ignition on when you read the voltages? If so one may be a permeate 12v feed either direct from the battery positive line or via the ignition switch while the other could be from the warning lamp. Although colours can change in the loom or the multi-plug(s) have you had  a look at the back of the control panel so see f you can identify those colours and cable thickness

Good point

 

So I tested the wires again with the ignition on. What I found is strange to me but it will hopefully mean something to you. Note that this alternator is connected to my leisure bank only. The starter battery has a separate alternator.

 

With the wires disconnected and the ignition on, they both read 13.6V. This tells me that they are connected to the starter battery somehow.

When connected they read: Black 1.39V and white 12.68V.

 

Does this tell you anything? I guess they're not regulating my leisure battery's charge anyway?

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Edit to add now I have checked for you :

Manufacturer states 'ideal charge voltage' as 14.1 - 14.6v 

So, you should be maximising with your 14.6v alternator output.

 

Do you have a link to this information as the only place I found that was on the retailers site.

[PeterF]

I thought that the regulator on alternators had some temperature compensation in so at lower winter temperatures increased the voltage so the behaviour may be by design.

[eid]

23 minutes ago, BEngo said:

They provide the power to initially  start up the alternator and the output for a warning light.  One may also sense the voltage at the batteries so as to overcome any losses in the wiring between the alternator and the batteries. The internal regulator will be connected to the two terminals and to the alternator case.

N

Does this concur with the information above? And thank you for replying

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That diagram look familiar. But he OP's alternator is not an A127, its more like the Mitsubishi ones fitted to Vetus engines.

The picture (of mine) is a EP Barrus Part number RDG5682, apparently used on Vetus engines and also as a Lucas NAB900 'Tractor alternator'

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, eid said:

Good point

 

So I tested the wires again with the ignition on. What I found is strange to me but it will hopefully mean something to you. Note that this alternator is connected to my leisure bank only. The starter battery has a separate alternator.

 

With the wires disconnected and the ignition on, they both read 13.6V. This tells me that they are connected to the starter battery somehow.

When connected they read: Black 1.39V and white 12.68V.

 

Does this tell you anything? I guess they're not regulating my leisure battery's charge anyway?

its not unknown for the engine battery to be used to energise the domestic alternator directly although its not a good ides. should use a relay.

I guess the black wire is the warning lamp wire and the white the positive feed to the regulator cum  sense wire.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[eid]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Found this (for my alternator)

 

 

 

 

Thanks Alan

 

14 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

So it sounds like your alternator is charging at an ideal maximum voltage. What's the problem exactly?

 

There is different information on the manufacturers site and the retailers site (post 6)

 

11 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

I'm pretty sure that's a Hitachi alternator. 14.6V sounds good to me. Bear in mind that the voltage you measure can vary greatly according to load (battery state of charge) and speed.

Thanks for the reply Sir Nibble. I'll have a look at Hitachi and see if I can i.d it. Good to know it's probably safe. I would like to know why it's suddenly charging at a higher rate though.

 

6 minutes ago, PeterF said:

I thought that the regulator on alternators had some temperature compensation in so at lower winter temperatures increased the voltage so the behaviour may be by design.

I did wonder about this.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by eid