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This is my first winter afloat with my self fit out live board narrowboat, do I need need to add a fuel additive to my main fuel tank to help prevent diesel bug or anything else nasty? I have a new Beta 43 and I don't want to damage it either way, any advise would be welcome.

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Of much more importance  would suggest is to regularly drain/suck any water from the bottom of the tank and if you have one of the fancy "flush" fuel  fillers to change it for one that has a female cap on it or regularly change the O ring on the your fillet plug.

 

If you must use an additive i would suggest a biocide like Marine 16 Complete rather than an emulsifier,  especially if you have not got rid of any water in the bottom of the tank.

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Just now, Tony Brooks said:

Of much more importance  would suggest is to regularly drain/suck any water from the bottom of the tank and if you have one of the fancy "flush" fuel  fillers to change it for one that has a female cap on it or regularly change the O ring on the your fillet plug.

 

If you must use an additive i would suggest a biocide like Marine 16 Complete rather than an emulsifier,  especially if you have not got rid of any water in the bottom of the tank.

Very good point, why oh why does any boat builder/fitter ever still use the crappy silly design?

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18 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Of much more importance  would suggest is to regularly drain/suck any water from the bottom of the tank and if you have one of the fancy "flush" fuel  fillers to change it for one that has a female cap on it or regularly change the O ring on the your fillet plug.

 

If you must use an additive i would suggest a biocide like Marine 16 Complete rather than an emulsifier,  especially if you have not got rid of any water in the bottom of the tank.

Have you got a good steak in mind Tony?

 

Or is it fish. salmon?

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Thank you Tony,  draining off the bottom of the tank makes sense to me as it will remove the water that causes the bug, I did wonder why my BSS examiner  asked me to show him the tank drain off, I am now realising its importance. Thank you both for you advise..

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16 minutes ago, Morningmist said:

Thank you Tony,  draining off the bottom of the tank makes sense to me as it will remove the water that causes the bug, I did wonder why my BSS examiner  asked me to show him the tank drain off, I am now realising its importance. Thank you both for you advise..

The tank drain has nothing to do with the BSS unless the regs have recently altered EXCEPT it its a tap/valve then it must be capped to prevent accidental draining into the bilge.

 

If your boat has a typical narrowboat tank then its unlikely  that the drain will remove all the water because most boats trim down by the stern and the drain is unlikely to be absolutely at the bottom of the tank. Either alter ballasting so it trims bow down for at least a couple of days or get a pipe into the back corners via the filler and suck it out.

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2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

you will get conflicting reports. Ive never used any fuel additive in over 30 years continuous use and probably save a billion pounds so far in 8 different boats. Never had any sort of bug.

You may not have added any yourself but many fuel sellers add some to their storage tanks on the cut so you may have over time.

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The use of a fuel additive cant possibly do any harm and just possibly may help prevent a diesel bug  issue.

I use  a fuel additive on most occasions that I add fuel.

 

Presently using  Clearwinner  LA88  and have been for a couple of years . Its  relatively economical 

https://www.clear-winner.co.uk/products/marine/

sales@clear-winner.co.uk

 

qafs7310.jpg

Edited by MartynG
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Every aircraft I have ever flown had what was called a gascollator.It was a spring loaded valve at the lowest point of the fuel tank(s) and another at the lowest point in the fuel feed.

A plastic or glass container with a brass rod cast into it was pushed into the valve and some fuel drained off.Any water or muck could be clearly seen.

A check on the fuel was part of the daily pre-flight checks.

Have never seen these on boats,and it would make checking fuel for contamination so much easier.

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9 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

RCR seem to disagree ...

 

 

Is that referring to additives  used by the boat owner for diesel  bug

 

16 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

RCR seem to disagree ...

 

 

Seems a bit speculative

 

 

 

 

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 Reply to Tony. Yes my tank drain does have a tap fitted with a screw in plug, also when I fill my water tanks that are located in the bows the boat sits pretty level, I will have a go at drawing off some diesel tomorrow.   Thanks to ever one I have taken note of what has been posted I will start by draining the tank but I also have other options to choose.

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10 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

RCR seem to disagree ...

 

And the lab they sent a previous weird fuel issue implicated additives as well. Eberspatcher were adamant (verbally) maybe 10 years ago that certain additives were found to do strange things at the bottom of the tank. RCR changed their additive recommendations based on the previous occurrence.

 

I don't think that looking at the available semi-independent evidence rather than marketing stuff @Martyn g is correct. There is room for doubt. That is unless he has technical expertise in the area that he has not disclosed.

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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

I don't think that looking at the available semi-independent evidence rather than marketing stuff @Martyn g is correct. There is room for doubt. That is unless he has technical expertise in the area that he has not disclosed.

I am no expert on the subject

But its the first I have heard of adverse reactions to additives.

 

Its not clear to me what type of additives are RCR referring to ?

 

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3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Its not clear to me what type of additives are RCR referring to ?

 

That's what they are trying to find out. 

 

I suspect if it is additives, it's likely to be a mixture of different ones, not just one on it's own.  If some suppliers are adding one type and others are adding a different type in their supply tanks and then a customer adds yet another one, what happens?  Does some combination of types of fuel additives react together?

 

Does it happen more with FAME in the diesel?  Does HVO instead make it better or worse?  

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Just now, MartynG said:

I am no expert on the subject

But its the first I have heard of adverse reactions to additives.

 

Its not clear to me what type of additives are RCR referring to ?

 

 

You correctly identify the that there is little clear evidence. The present problem is still under investigation and they are asking for more evidence to investigate. The previous instance caused them to to stop recommending the emulsifier additive they had been and change to Marine16 complete. This was after lab analysis.

 

I also found many litres of emulsified fuel & water in the bottom of my tank when I took heed to the results I had seen and started an annual water removal. I had been using Fuelset for many years. I suspect the amount was very close to allowing it to be drawn into the system.

 

I note the additive you seems to be a combined emulsifier and biocide.

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2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

That's what they are trying to find out. 

 

I suspect if it is additives, it's likely to be a mixture of different ones, not just one on it's own.  If some suppliers are adding one type and others are adding a different type in their supply tanks and then a customer adds yet another one, what happens?  Does some combination of types of fuel additives react together?

 

Does it happen more with FAME in the diesel?  Does HVO instead make it better or worse?  

 

If anyone is interested it seems the present contamination is allegedly caused by  sterol glucoside and monoglyceride particles, whatever that means. Maybe a member has expertise in the field to comment on the likely precursor to those substances,specially when combined with high pressures and small orifices.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 sterol glucoside 

Google finds that to be something in bio diesel

 

The Clearwinner additive I have been using is similar to fuel set in the way it works .  Incorporates water molecules rather than causing water to drop out. But it only works with microscopic amounts of water . Water from a leaky filler cap seal isn't going to be absorbed.

 

Perhaps a change back to Marine 16 would be in order as I suspect bio diesel content is only going to increase in the future.

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26 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Perhaps a change back to Marine 16 would be in order as I suspect bio diesel content is only going to increase in the future.

It has already gone / going from 7% to 12%

 

Government information :

 

 Biodiesel is blended at different ratios, and referred to as:

o 100% biodiesel is referred to as B100

o 20% biodiesel, 80% petro-diesel is B20

o 5% biodiesel, 95% petro-diesel is B5

o 2% biodiesel, 98% petro-diesel is B2

 

 Blends of B20 biodiesel and lower can be used in diesel equipment with no modifications.

 

 The Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO) requires fuel suppliers who supply at least 450,000 litres of fuel a year to show that a percentage of the fuel they supply comes from renewable and sustainable sources. This is why most petro-diesel that comes from the forecourts tends to have up to 7% biodiesel content.

 

Some applications have no problems :

 

 

DEC 10, 2020

Swedish air force’s biofuel jet performing well in trials

The Gripen aircraft
The Gripen aircraft
Several successful test flights have been conducted with the Swedish air force’s JAS 39 Gripen using a mixture of fossil-free fuel.
Ongoing tests have shown good aircraft performance with the biofuel when compared to traditional jet fuel.
Testing continues and the Swedish Armed Forces is closely following the biofuel project that the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) is conducting together with GKN Aerospace Engine Systems Sweden in Trollhättan.
Engine tests have been performed in order to study possible differences in performance and engine function when using a 50/50 mix of biofuel compared to performance in engines using only jet fuel. The tests showed that the engine using biofuel had unchanged performance both regarding thrust power and fuel consumption.
“This is an important project for the Swedish Armed Forces’ development activity as Sweden aims to become climate neutral by 2045. The conducted tests are very positive and we look forward to the next step with confidence," says Brigadier General Gabor Nagy, fighter pilot and head of the Swedish Armed Forces’ Total Defence Department.
More testing is to be conducted by the Swedish Defence Research Agency during the first quarter of the new year.
Then, the FMV, together with their US cooperation partner USAF/NAVAIR, will evaluate the biofuel project and present a conclusion of the tests. The Swedish Armed Forces will receive the FMV’s final report on the project later in 2021.
Edited by Alan de Enfield
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9 hours ago, luggsy said:

This is our fuel point, only seen this design on xr&d boats

IMG_3252.jpg

IMG_3251.JPG

That is better than the silly brass fitting types on many boats including the Hudson I owned but rain can still get down the sides of the lid, how is the filler cap seated into the hull?

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It has already gone / going from 7% to 12%

 

Some applications have no problems :

 

 

DEC 10, 2020

Swedish air force’s biofuel jet performing well in trials

The Gripen aircraft
The Gripen aircraft
Several successful test flights have been conducted with the Swedish air force’s JAS 39 Gripen using a mixture of fossil-free fuel.
Ongoing tests have shown good aircraft performance with the biofuel when compared to traditional jet fuel.
Testing continues and the Swedish Armed Forces is closely following the biofuel project that the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) is conducting together with GKN Aerospace Engine Systems Sweden in Trollhättan.
Engine tests have been performed in order to study possible differences in performance and engine function when using a 50/50 mix of biofuel compared to performance in engines using only jet fuel. The tests showed that the engine using biofuel had unchanged performance both regarding thrust power and fuel consumption.
“This is an important project for the Swedish Armed Forces’ development activity as Sweden aims to become climate neutral by 2045. The conducted tests are very positive and we look forward to the next step with confidence," says Brigadier General Gabor Nagy, fighter pilot and head of the Swedish Armed Forces’ Total Defence Department.
More testing is to be conducted by the Swedish Defence Research Agency during the first quarter of the new year.
Then, the FMV, together with their US cooperation partner USAF/NAVAIR, will evaluate the biofuel project and present a conclusion of the tests. The Swedish Armed Forces will receive the FMV’s final report on the project later in 2021.

Good to see the Swedes leading on eco-friendly, socially responsible strafing...

 

;)

 

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It has already gone / going from 7% to 12%

 

Some applications have no problems :

 

 

DEC 10, 2020

Swedish air force’s biofuel jet performing well in trials

The Gripen aircraft
The Gripen aircraft
 

I am guessing the fuel in aircraft is consumed fairly promptly and has a fast turnover

Unlike a boat where  fuel can sit in the tank for many months. I suspect the time factor is significant.

 

 

 

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