"Sticky Diesel" stops several canal boats

[peterboat]

On 10/12/2020 at 10:58, Alan de Enfield said:

The future is in Zero Emission  Ediesel produced from Algae, HVO may be a stepping stone, but with things moving so quickly any investement in HVO maybe misplaced.

Alan its never going to happen, even big boats are going CNG/LNG according to splash 24/7, 27% of boats ordered this year have gone that way. I see efuel as a distraction at best and a limited market for classic cars that dont mind spending 10 squids a litre for it

[Tracy D'arth]

HVO is produced in part from palm oil. the plantations of which cause rainforest to be stripped, wildlife destroyed, ground erosion and reduction in oxygen production.

Is the environment damage worse than the particulate and NOX ? I believe so.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Tracy D'arth

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

HVO is produced in part from palm oil. the plantations of which cause rainforest to be stripped, wildlife destroyed, ground erosion and reduction in oxygen production.

Is the environment damage worse than the particulate and NOX ? I believe so.

More than likely correct so diesel engines are dead 

[PBevan]

Hi All,

 

I'd like to kick off with a couple of images from my Beta 43 diesel injection system.

If you zoom in you will see yellow marks that caused the injector pump to fail and the injectors to stick open. The cause appears to be sticky or contaminated diesel. 

The diesel has the appearance of being OK, it's viscosity has been tested as good and the diesel appears perfect with a clear pinkish colour. Visually the diesel after both filters is good.

The tank on the boat has no signs of diesel bug and flows freely.

I noted with interest that the CRC is asking for fuel samples and fuel purchase dates all of which I will supply.

The injection system has now been repaired twice and the cost as you might imagine are substantial.

I do not expect anyone to know of a solution, this is just to say I'm trying to out what has happened to my boat. 

Every indication is that one of three things might have caused the problem.

1) Bad diesel

2) A faulty filter ( may be the glue leached out )

3) The diesel additive I used did something odd - maay be over the winter. 

An interesting observation has been, the yellow sticky coating slowly formed on a sample of metal left a a jar of the contaminated diesel. It took several days to develop and is microscopically thin but incredibly sticky. 

My current test, once the injectors and pump are back from the refurbishment company is to:

1) remove and dispose of all the diesel, 180ltrs

2) clean the tank and pipes

3) replace the two filters

4) put the injectors and pump back on the engine

5 start the engine after normal bleeding process.

 

I'm going to phone the CRT and inform them in more detail of my experience, as I know - something out there is not playing a fair game.

 

I'll keep you informed.

 

Kind Regards Pete

[PBevan]

Hi All,

 

I'd like to kick off with a couple of images from my Beta 43 diesel injection system.

If you zoom in you will see yellow marks that caused the injector pump to fail and the injectors to stick open. The cause appears to be sticky or contaminated diesel. 

The diesel has the appearance of being OK, it's viscosity has been tested as good and the diesel appears perfect with a clear pinkish colour. Visually the diesel after both filters is good.

The tank on the boat has no signs of diesel bug and flows freely.

I noted with interest that the CRC is asking for fuel samples and fuel purchase dates all of which I will supply.

The injection system has now been repaired twice and the cost as you might imagine are substantial.

I do not expect anyone to know of a solution, this is just to say I'm trying to out what has happened to my boat. 

Every indication is that one of three things might have caused the problem.

1) Bad diesel

2) A faulty filter ( may be the glue leached out )

3) The diesel additive I used did something odd - maay be over the winter. 

An interesting observation has been, the yellow sticky coating slowly formed on a sample of metal left a a jar of the contaminated diesel. It took several days to develop and is microscopically thin but incredibly sticky. 

My current test, once the injectors and pump are back from the refurbishment company is to:

1) remove and dispose of all the diesel, 180ltrs

2) clean the tank and pipes

3) replace the two filters

4) put the injectors and pump back on the engine

5 start the engine after normal bleeding process.

 

I'm going to phone the CRT and inform them in more detail of my experience, as I know - something out there is not playing a fair game.

 

I'll keep you informed.

 

Kind Regards Pete

Details will be forwarded to the RCR not CRC.

[dmr]

This sort of thing happens from time to time, I have had it twice, nobody appears to really understand it. Whatever the "contamination" might be it is dissolved in the diesel so gets through the filters then something makes it appear in the pump and/or injectors, this could be temperature, or pressure, or change in pressure, who knows.

First time was self inflicted because I took so old diesel from where I used to work. We all shared it out and everybody else had no trouble but it plated the insides of my injection pump.   Second time (many years later) the diesel turned into a sort of "marmalade" in the injection pump. The boat had stood without use for two weeks in freezing conditions a few weeks previous which might or might not be a factor.

I will never get to really understand this, one or two old diesel men said they had seen similar once or twice before, most just insisted (wrongly) that it was diesel bug.

My best guess, and its only a guess but with some www research, an ingredient in some additives can sometimes react with all the copper that we have in boat fuel systems, with the bio part of diesel possibly playing an unknown part.

[Up-Side-Down]

12 hours ago, PBevan said:

Hi All,

 

I'd like to kick off with a couple of images from my Beta 43 diesel injection system.

If you zoom in you will see yellow marks that caused the injector pump to fail and the injectors to stick open. The cause appears to be sticky or contaminated diesel. 

The diesel has the appearance of being OK, it's viscosity has been tested as good and the diesel appears perfect with a clear pinkish colour. Visually the diesel after both filters is good.

The tank on the boat has no signs of diesel bug and flows freely.

I noted with interest that the CRC is asking for fuel samples and fuel purchase dates all of which I will supply.

The injection system has now been repaired twice and the cost as you might imagine are substantial.

I do not expect anyone to know of a solution, this is just to say I'm trying to out what has happened to my boat. 

Every indication is that one of three things might have caused the problem.

1) Bad diesel

2) A faulty filter ( may be the glue leached out )

3) The diesel additive I used did something odd - maay be over the winter. 

An interesting observation has been, the yellow sticky coating slowly formed on a sample of metal left a a jar of the contaminated diesel. It took several days to develop and is microscopically thin but incredibly sticky. 

My current test, once the injectors and pump are back from the refurbishment company is to:

1) remove and dispose of all the diesel, 180ltrs

2) clean the tank and pipes

3) replace the two filters

4) put the injectors and pump back on the engine

5 start the engine after normal bleeding process.

 

I'm going to phone the CRT and inform them in more detail of my experience, as I know - something out there is not playing a fair game.

 

I'll keep you informed.

 

Kind Regards Pete

Details will be forwarded to the RCR not CRC.

As many members of this forum will be aware, IWA set up a Sustainable Boating Group about 18 months ago to plot the move from the current diesel propulsion to carbon neutral boating in 2050. The vision document produced has subsequently guided other organisations in setting out their stall for sustainable boating. 

 

IWA also have a small specialist sub-group looking at the interim role that HVO has to play in fueling the 80,000 odd diesel engines currently found in inland waterways craft. Inevitably we have been drawn into the 'sticky diesel' debate as it is 'meat and drink' to the organic chemist and diesel injection specialist that form the backbone of this sub-group.

 

I thought it might be helpful to post a couple of the pieces of correspondence between members of the IWA sub-group and RCR so that readers can see that the process that is probably being described in the post above is, in fact, more sinister than diesel bug, which can at least be managed.

 

"Just what I would be expecting. The longer the fuel sits around (lockdown following lockdown) the more time there is for the soaps to drop out. 

 

"Transesterification (the process by which 1^stgeneration FAME diesel is manufactured) produces some pretty decent glycerine as a by-product and, I'm told, much sort after by the cosmetics industry. As I said before, it's never 100% washed out, remains dissolved in the fuel and then starts to drop out if the fuel is unused for any length of time, particularly in cold weather I believe.

 

"But I'm more than happy to stand corrected. This is the province of boaters, farmers and the operators of stand-by generators. Everyone else has a reasonably rapid turnover of diesel fuel.

 

"The fuel you're coming across may well have been in the tanks since the early days of B5/B7 and after all the problems that farmers have recently experienced, it is possible that the refineries have come up with a fix. But that will only be pretty recently. I know that they've been trying very hard!"

 

However, it soon became apparent that was less than half the story as this subsequent email from our organic chemist demonstrates:

 

 

"Hi Everyone, Mmm, that’s part of the story. However, if that’s all that was happening, the residual glycerol would re-dissolve when things warm up again, whereas this seems to be predominantly a one way trip with time.

 

"I think the dominant process (probably made even nastier and stickier by the glycerol add-on) will be various chemical decomposition reactions in the FAME itself.  The most obvious one will be slow hydrolysis of the long chain organic esters that make up FAME, due to moisture in the fuel tanks. Irritatingly, this reaction is acid-catalysed so will be weakly auto-catalytic (i.e with time it slowly speeds up). The product of this will be methanol, and long chain fatty acids. These will tend to form a scummy ‘snot’ congregating wherever the acid end of the molecule can find anything wet with water, whilst the paraffinic end buries itself into the nearby diesel phase.   

 

"In addition, the double bond in the fatty backbone will slowly oxidise, further linking to goo together.

 

"Add a trace of glycerol and you’ll get a vile mess.

 

"I was then wondering what to use to try and wash this horrible goo out of a fuel system, and I’m struggling a little.  There are options for dissolving these things in the literature, but some of the chemicals involved would attack certain seals, and things like plastic filter bowls. Also very flammable/toxic.

 

"If you want me to come up with some suggestions, I could, but considerable care would need to be employed using materials like acetone, hexane or chloroform!

 

"Best bet is to get the wretched stuff drummed off the canal system asap!!"

 

Remember that is is set against a backdrop of B7, soon to become B10 (as in all diesel having a 10% 1st generation FAME content). If you think we have problems now then 'you ain't seen nothing yet'.

 

Clearly 2nd generation biofuel – in the form of HVO – is the simple solution as it is chemically identical to mineral diesel (but without its aromatic, mineral and sulphur content) and keeps for at least 10 years without issues. Currently the only problems revolve around price and availability. Once there is demand the first problem will be taken care of. However, HVO is likely to carry a price premium in the short term at least, which might represent an issue to some.

 

Or does it? The average fuel consumption amongst inland boaters is currently 200 – 250 litres a year, so a £20 – £25 premium on fuel costs if HVO is used. I shudder to think about the cost of sorting out the type of problems from using 1st generation FAME diesel detailed above. So suddenly an additional annual fuel spend of £20 – £25 spent sounds like an incredibly cheap form of insurance policy!

 

 

 

[Up-Side-Down]

On 14/12/2020 at 18:46, Tracy D'arth said:

HVO is produced in part from palm oil. the plantations of which cause rainforest to be stripped, wildlife destroyed, ground erosion and reduction in oxygen production.

Is the environment damage worse than the particulate and NOX ? I believe so.

HVO is produced entirely from waste cooking oil and animal fats. There is a robust, independent certification process in place to ensure this remains the case and that therefore no land is used to produce fuel crops that could otherwise be used in food production. I can't put my hand on my heart and say that within that mix of waste cooking oils there is no palm oil, but at least I can be sure that it is just that: a waste oil that has previously been a part of another process and that, as such, it would otherwise have been dumped in landfill.

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

HVO is produced entirely from waste cooking oil and animal fats. There is a robust, independent certification process in place to ensure this remains the case and that therefore no land is used to produce fuel crops that could otherwise be used in food production. I can't put my hand on my heart and say that within that mix of waste cooking oils there is no palm oil, but at least I can be sure that it is just that: a waste oil that has previously been a part of another process and that, as such, it would otherwise have been dumped in landfill.

That makes it OK then, the Indonesian orangutans can rest easy...............................until their forest is destroyed.

[Up-Side-Down]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

That makes it OK then, the Indonesian orangutans can rest easy...............................until their forest is destroyed.

My point is that regardless of what UK inland boaters decide to burn in their diesel engines, nothing will change for the Indonesian Orangutans ......... about whom I'm probably as concerned as you. Out of interest, I wonder just how much palm oil is actually used in the deep frying of fish, chips and the like .........?

[IanD]

On 26/08/2021 at 10:09, Up-Side-Down said:

HVO is produced entirely from waste cooking oil and animal fats. There is a robust, independent certification process in place to ensure this remains the case and that therefore no land is used to produce fuel crops that could otherwise be used in food production. I can't put my hand on my heart and say that within that mix of waste cooking oils there is no palm oil, but at least I can be sure that it is just that: a waste oil that has previously been a part of another process and that, as such, it would otherwise have been dumped in landfill.

You would think that given the problems that canal boats often seem to have with diesel -- seemingly getting worse with E5/E10 -- because of the length of time it often sits in the tanks, HVO would be the ideal solution, in fact better than using it for cars -- the canal market is small enough that HVO could easily supply all of it (fuel problems gone!), where it would just be a drop in the ocean with cars.

 

As pointed out above, many people are likely to think that any small cost increase was well worth it to avoid the current diesel fuel problems, especially with boats that are not used for longer periods or don't use much fuel.

[MtB]

22 minutes ago, IanD said:

You would think that given the problems that canal boats often seem to have with diesel -- seemingly getting worse with E5/E10 -- because of the length of time it often sits in the tanks, HVO would be the ideal solution, in fact better than using it for cars -- the canal market is small enough that HVO could easily supply all of it (fuel problems gone!), where it would just be a drop in the ocean with cars.

 

As pointed out above, many people are likely to think that any small cost increase was well worth it to avoid the current diesel fuel problems, especially with boats that are not used for longer periods or don't use much fuel.

 

Set against this, a lot of boaters are desperately price-conscious. 

 

Fuel retailer: "Sir, you can have 300 litres of normal diesel for 77p a litre, or you can save the planet with HVO for £1.07 a litre, which will be an extra £90. Which will it be?"

 

Typical tight-wad narrowboater: "Do you really need to ask?"

 

 

[Machpoint005]

If the conventional diesel can cause injector problems, and the HVO is known not to, then the £90 premium is a lot less than the repair costs.

 

 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

If the conventional diesel can cause injector problems, and the HVO is known not to, then the £90 premium is a lot less than the repair costs.

 

 

 

Typical tight-wad, not particularly well-informed narrowboater: "Ninety quid more? You must think I was born yesterday. F-off! My boat engine has been fine on normal diesel so far. I'll take the normal stuff please."

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by MtB

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I’m what might be called a typical tight-wad boater. And under normal circumstances I would go for the cheaper diesel with the reasoning that I boat a lot and have a healthy turn over of diesel, and think I’m a low risk contender for bugs ( will stand to be corrected on this if this is not the case )

If I were a tight-wad boater who leaves me boat in a marina for 50 weeks of the year then I might well consider the alternative diesel. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Goliath said:

I’m what might be called a typical tight-wad boater. And under normal circumstances I would go for the cheaper diesel with the reasoning that I boat a lot and have a healthy turn over of diesel, and think I’m a low risk contender for bugs ( will stand to be corrected on this if this is not the case )

If I were a tight-wad boater who leaves me boat in a marina for 50 weeks of the year then I might well consider the alternative diesel. 

 

Which is to completely misunderstand the problem. Dave will explain it to you! 

[Machpoint005]

The problem (well, a related problem) is the conventional diesel still in the tank when you buy HVO.

Yes, I know that HVO is fully miscible with petrodiesel, but some of the latter is still there.

 

[Up-Side-Down]

2 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

The problem (well, a related problem) is the conventional diesel still in the tank when you buy HVO.

Good point. However, you will be diluting the B7 element of the mineral diesel to something that is hopefully less than B5 (HVO is fully miscible btw). Extensive trial work done by the likes of Lucas/Bosch/Mercedes back in the 90s demonstrated that at concentrations of B5 and less there were no issues but that mineral diesel should never contain more than 5% FAME biodiesel: a fact that everyone has now overlooked.

 

Indeed, have a quick look through a contemporary Mercedes handbook and you will see that they still don't warrant their cars at anything over B5. How this plays with what is available at the pumps I've never been able to work out. Incidentally, Mercedes also publish information about the problems likely to be encountered using FAME biodiesel and the list includes all the problems boaters are experiencing and a whole lot more besides.

41 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Set against this, a lot of boaters are desperately price-conscious. 

 

Fuel retailer: "Sir, you can have 300 litres of normal diesel for 77p a litre, or you can save the planet with HVO for £1.07 a litre, which will be an extra £90. Which will it be?"

 

Typical tight-wad narrowboater: "Do you really need to ask?"

 

 

Comparative prices for HVO v Gas Oil as of the end of last week. New Era (GBF Ltd) are selling 205 litre drums of HVO delivered for slightly less. For those that really acknowledge that there is a climate emergency, there is very little excuse for not changing to HVO!

 

Gas Oil & HVO Pricing – 18:08:21.docx

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Which is to completely misunderstand the problem. Dave will explain it to you! 

well, I’m not so sure

I will need some good convincing

I did ask the question before on here and a couple of respected members agreed: an engine used regular is unlikely to develop diesel bug. Not impossible but unlikely. 

 

Maybe, I am one of those boaters who would say “Ninety quid more? You must think I was born yesterday. F-off! My boat engine has been fine on normal diesel so far. I'll take the normal stuff please."

 

 

 

With regards the environmental issues then I would prefer the HVO. 

 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Goliath said:

well, I’m not so sure

I will need some good convincing

I did ask the question before on here and a couple of respected members agreed: an engine used regular is unlikely to develop diesel bug. Not impossible but unlikely. 

 

Maybe, I am one of those boaters who would say “Ninety quid more? You must think I was born yesterday. F-off! My boat engine has been fine on normal diesel so far. I'll take the normal stuff please."

 

 

 

With regards the environmental issues then I would prefer the HVO. 

 

 

The problem this thread is about, for which HVO is a good solution, is "sticky diesel".

 

Nothing to do with diesel bug or saving the planet, and all to do with the massive problem Dave had last year with "marmalade" deposits in his JD3 injector pump. But the way boaters are likely to confuse this with diesel bug and CO2 emissions is why I say HVO is going to prove difficult to sell to boaters when it is absolutely bound to be significantly more expensive than vanilla diesel.

[dmr]

28 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Which is to completely misunderstand the problem. Dave will explain it to you! 

 

I can't explain anything to Goliath, whenever we meet he makes be drink loads of beer and we both end up talking bollox.

 

However, I think most of us are missing the point by focusing on the cost, the best case will be a choice between HVO or fitting an electric motor and two ton of batteries, and HVO will be a lot cheaper. All three of us to enjoy the sounds of our diesel engines to various extents, electric motors just don't do it.

 

The worse case will be no diesel at all and either electric motors or no boating.

 

The end of diesels might come sooner than we expect due to public pressure, Mr public (and his newspapers) will find it much easier to victimise boats and steam railways than to give up their twice yearly foreign holidays.

A pre-emptive strike by moving to HVO now would be a good move.

Has anybody really actually purchased any? I tried and it was a nightmare, they wanted a site visit and to negotiate a contract for a regular supply.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The problem this thread is about, for which HVO is a good solution, is "sticky diesel".

 

Nothing to do with diesel bug or saving the planet, and all to do with the massive problem Dave had last year with "marmalade" deposits in his JD3 injector pump. But the way boaters are likely to confuse this with diesel bug and CO2 emissions is why I say HVO is going to prove difficult to sell to boaters when it is absolutely bound to be significantly more expensive than vanilla diesel.

Fair enough , skim reading and not reading properly. 
 

however, HVO is about ‘saving the planet’ and claims to solve the diese big problem

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Good point. However, you will be diluting the B7 element of the mineral diesel to something that is hopefully less than B5 (HVO is fully miscible btw). Extensive trial work done by the likes of Lucas/Bosch/Mercedes back in the 90s demonstrated that at concentrations of B5 and less there were no issues but that mineral diesel should never contain more than 5% FAME biodiesel: a fact that everyone has now overlooked.

 

Indeed, have a quick look through a contemporary Mercedes handbook and you will see that they still don't warrant their cars at anything over B5. How this plays with what is available at the pumps I've never been able to work out. Incidentally, Mercedes also publish information about the problems likely to be encountered using FAME biodiesel and the list includes all the problems boaters are experiencing and a whole lot more besides.

Comparative prices for HVO v Gas Oil as of the end of last week. New Era (GBF Ltd) are selling 205 litre drums of HVO delivered for slightly less. For those that really acknowledge that there is a climate emergency, there is very little excuse for not changing to HVO!

 

Gas Oil & HVO Pricing – 18:08:21.docx 11.97 kB · 2 downloads

 

 

Thanks for the doc. For those n ot wanting to click the link, this is what it says

 

"Gas Oil & HVO Pricing as at 18/08/21 – Crown Oil

 

 

 

All prices include off road duty @ 11.14ppl and are plus VAT @ 5%

 

 

HVO

 

205Ltrs Drums HVO RED £235.00

1000Ltrs IBC HVO RED £899.00

 

No barrel / IBC Charge, prices include delivery next day.

 

Crown can also collect the empties.

 

Bulk rates are….

 

900Ltrs + BULK Tanker Delivery £0.7195ppl

 

2000Ltrs + BULK £0.6900ppl

 

 

 Gas Oil

 

900Ltrs £0.6190ppl

 

2000Ltrs £0.5990ppl

 

 

So a 205 litre drum of HVO will cost a boater £1.14 a litre, and they've got to find somewhere a lorry can deliver it to, near their boat. And then get it out of the barrel and into their diesel tank. Not a trivial amount of mucking about for yer average boater. Far easier for them to just get the pump nozzle at a boatyard 

 

Although I wholly agree with you HVO is the obvious fuel to use, actually getting boatyards to stock it and dispense it via a pump is gonna be a pretty big task. 

[dmr]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The problem this thread is about, for which HVO is a good solution, is "sticky diesel".

 

Nothing to do with diesel bug or saving the planet, and all to do with the massive problem Dave had last year with "marmalade" deposits in his JD3 injector pump. But the way boaters are likely to confuse this with diesel bug and CO2 emissions is why I say HVO is going to prove difficult to sell to boaters when it is absolutely bound to be significantly more expensive than vanilla diesel.

 

I reckon I have spent about £1800 in the last 12 years on injection pump overhauls due to diesel problems, thats not including my labour removing and refitting the pumps, and cleaning out fuel lines. In this 12 years ive got through maybe 14000 litres of diesel so thats a bad diesel surcharge of about 13p per litre.

I will happily pay another 20p/litre to save the planet for my kids, and another 20p to make a bit less smoke. 😀

[MtB]

And another question now I'm considering buying a tin of HVO. Will it blend seemlessly with the ordinary diesel currently in my tank or does one need to do a drain and flush to switch over from one fuel to the other? And the same back again if an HVO boat gets caught with no fuel available other than vanilla diesel?