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"Sticky Diesel" stops several canal boats


Alan de Enfield

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2 minutes ago, dmr said:

Once we have to use full price white diesel

There is no proposal to use 'full price' white diesel for domestic and we already pay full tax on the propulsion (if we make the correct declaration) so there should be very little difference in cost to the boater.

 

It is amazing how these scare stories continue to circulate - it is all explained in the Governments proposal documents.

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There is no proposal to use 'full price' white diesel for domestic and we already pay full tax on the propulsion (if we make the correct declaration) so there should be very little difference in cost to the boater.

 

It is amazing how these scare stories continue to circulate - it is all explained in the Governments proposal documents.

Yes, but many (most) boats do not have a separate tank for domestic red and its likely that red will become very difficult to purchase on the cut. Plus the huge number of roving traders who can currently use red for propulsion but will no longer be able to. Many boats use their main engine to charge batteries when not cruising and this will have to use white. I suspect, leaving aside the letter of the law, that in reality almost all boats will become 100% white.

 

..........Dave

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Just now, dmr said:

Yes, but many (most) boats do not have a separate tank for domestic red and its likely that red will become very difficult to purchase on the cut. Plus the huge number of roving traders who can currently use red for propulsion but will no longer be able to. Many boats use their main engine to charge batteries when not cruising and this will have to use white. I suspect, leaving aside the letter of the law, that in reality almost all boats will become 100% white.

 

..........Dave

I'm not talking about using a seperate tank and using Red.

 

The proposal is that 'domestic' white will be sold at the rebated rate, the same as (but the reverse of) Red.

 

Currently Red is sold at its base price for Domestic, and the duty added for propulsion use (at a suggested split of 60/40)

 

The proposal now is that :

 

White will be sold at is 'base rate' for propulsion' and discounted by the amount of duty for domestic use (at a suggested split of 60/40)

 

In effect there will be no difference to the prices paid by the boater EXCEPT for any on cost the fuel-boat or marina etc add on because of "whatever reason" (suggestions are that sellers will need more security because white will be stolen, sellers will need to have tanks cleaned and possibly hoses replaced to get rid of all traces of Redmall costs that need to be recouped.)

 

In effect the only people who will see much of an increase are those that have been making fraudulent claims on their usage.

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31 minutes ago, dmr said:

Plus the huge number of roving traders who can currently use red for propulsion but will no longer be able to.

Huge number ?

 

Commercial boats can use white and reclaim ALL of the duty (exactly the same as they are currently allowed to do on Red)

The only difference will be that they will be charged VAT at 20% rather than the rebated 5% rate (unless they are buying over 2300 litres when the full 20% rate is charged), but obviously the traders VAT registered can reclaim the VAT anyway

 

36 minutes ago, dmr said:

Many boats use their main engine to charge batteries when not cruising

It is for this reason that the 60/40 split was introduced, or do you imagine it was only to cover the use of Eberspachers etc ?

 

 

 

In reality, the change to white is going to affect inland boaters by very little.

Unless - as suggested, the sellers start to 'gouge' us or try and recover huge imaginary costs for the change-over.

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59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There is no proposal to use 'full price' white diesel for domestic and we already pay full tax on the propulsion (if we make the correct declaration) so there should be very little difference in cost to the boater.

 

It is amazing how these scare stories continue to circulate - it is all explained in the Governments proposal documents.

I would suggest that will only be true if you can buy bulk or walk back and forth to Tesco with gerry cans. If you look at the 60/40 price that is in most places already equal to white at Tesco

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Just now, ditchcrawler said:

I would suggest that will only be true if you can buy bulk or walk back and forth to Tesco with gerry cans. If you look at the 60/40 price that is in most places already equal to white at Tesco

Agreed - small volume buyers are paying higher purchase prices so have to sell at prices higher than the Supermarket White.

 

If anyone was worried they could go to the supermarket now and fill up their Jeremy cans, but they don't. For such small volume used as the likes of NB's that possibly only use (say) 20 litres per week** then its not worth getting the car out, or taking a bus ride to save £1.

 

** I know there will be someone who claims to use 1000 litres per week, but there are also some (many) who probably only use an average of 1 litre per week.

 

How many engine hours does an 'average' NB do a year ?

CCers / Livaboards possibly do less hours than a leisure boat - they will tend to move a few miles, stay  7/10/14 days before moving on another few miles repeat ................ No rush, nowhere to be and no reason to be there.

A leisure boat may only be in use for 3 months (12 weeks) per year but those weeks will probably involve considerable hours / travelling as the limited time means that maximum benefit has to be taken of the cruise and much greater distances are covered in a short time.

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10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

I imagine they will continue to make fraudulent claims on their usage. So why should they see an increase?

 

Part of the consulation is to determine whether to :

 

1) Implement a fixed rate of 60/40, or,

2) Allow variable declarations up to a maximum (and the extra paperwork, evidence of usage etc.)

 

Analysis by both the industry and HMRC previously suggested that a split of 60% for propulsion and 40% for non-propulsion use probably reflected most crafts’ typical fuel use. The government would welcome views on whether this apportionment remains typical, with supporting evidence.

 

The government would also welcome views on whether the relief should be a fixed percentage or whether it should be capped at a maximum percentage. A fixed percentage would mean a written declaration from craft users of how they use their fuel would not be required and it should make it slightly easier for fuel suppliers to work out the duty that needs to be deducted from the sale price and compile all the claims for HMRC. A relief capped at a maximum percentage would allow craft users to more accurately reflect the amount of diesel they intend to use for non-propulsion. This would necessitate a written declaration from the craft user to the fuel supplier on how they intended to use each tank of fuel (which would need to be made available to HMRC on request), although craft users could lodge a standing declaration with any supplier where they were a regular customer to save them making new declarations each time they refuelled.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I see hybrids of any 'flavour' as just short term.

With the use of EDiesel you retain your original ICE engine - no investment in batteries, managament systems, generators, etc you just use your old engine and it now has zero emission.

 

You can buy a lot of EDiesel (even at premium prices) when you are saving £25-£35k on an electric system, plus your payment is spread over a long period, just a few £'s extra each time you fill upo, but, when you go electric you have to find all that cash 'up-front'.

But with no more ICE being manufactured after 2030 an EDiesel or an HVO solution has a finite life ..........

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5 hours ago, dmr said:

Keep us informed.  If it could be produced in large enough quantities then it could be the way forward for those applications where electric propulsion is not viable. A series hybrid able to run off a charging point, or HVO for long remote cruises, would be perfect.

I assume at some some stage the government policy will start to move from "aspirational" to practical reality and so diesel will have a longer term future.

I tried to get a quote to get 200 HVO litres delivered but it was just too difficult, they wanted a site meeting, so they are not promoting it very well ?

I have read the specs and the viscosity is a little different to standard which might just upset my injection pump. There are a few hundred Beta JD3's on the cut and the fussy Stanadyne pump would be a good test of HVO.

 

Once we have to use full price white diesel then HVO might be attractive, if its really only an extra 20p/litre then its very attractive, I thought it was about £3/litre. It only takes one FAME related fuel issue to run up a bill of £1000 so it would be good to avoid this.

 

Its interesting that you mention retarded timing, this does reduce NOx but can increase smoke/particulates, maybe its a different balance with HVO.

 

............Dave

 

Crown Oil will send you a 205 litre drum or 1000 litre IBC by carrier and if it's red you'll just have to fill in the usual declaration online. Quantities above 500 litres they can deliver by tanker. The head office is Bury but they have several depots throughout the country. I've just arranged a 500 litre tanker delivery for a member of the IWA Sustainable Propulsion group to the Stockport area and that went without a hitch. I should add that he has a serial hybrid and the fuel is for the Kubota generator that also provides the heating for the boat.

 

I'm interested in your comments re the Standyne pump. The SG of HVO is fact lower than dino-diesel as HVO is free of all the paraffinic compounds that produce the nasty emissions. Ironically this puts it outside one of the EN standards (I just forget which at the moment) but it aligns with the other two including the all important EN15940.

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6 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

But with no more ICE being manufactured after 2030 an EDiesel or an HVO solution has a finite life ..........

It is not the manufacture of engines that is banned - it is the manufacture of non-zero emission methods of 'propulsion'. The legislation does not specify what power sources are or are not to be used, simply that whatever is used MUST be zero emission.

HVO is not zero emission so has a very short life.

 

If EDiesel (which is zero emission) is available then using ICE engines would be allowed & well in advance of the legislation by being zero emission 'ahead of time'.

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18 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Crown Oil will send you a 205 litre drum or 1000 litre IBC by carrier and if it's red you'll just have to fill in the usual declaration online. Quantities above 500 litres they can deliver by tanker. The head office is Bury but they have several depots throughout the country. I've just arranged a 500 litre tanker delivery for a member of the IWA Sustainable Propulsion group to the Stockport area and that went without a hitch. I should add that he has a serial hybrid and the fuel is for the Kubota generator that also provides the heating for the boat.

 

I'm interested in your comments re the Standyne pump. The SG of HVO is fact lower than dino-diesel as HVO is free of all the paraffinic compounds that produce the nasty emissions. Ironically this puts it outside one of the EN standards (I just forget which at the moment) but it aligns with the other two including the all important EN15940.

Thanks, I can't remember which company I spoke to, but I think it was somewhere in Yorkshire, I think they said that red HVO was not available. Can a 200l drum be delivered anywhere or do you need to meet fuel storage requirements like a bunded store?

 

I will have a look on the www and see if there is any mention of HVO and Stanadyne pumps

 

We have cut our coal consumption by 75% so far this winter so it might be nice to go a bit greener on the diesel too.

 

.............Dave

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27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is not the manufacture of engines that is banned - it is the manufacture of non-zero emission methods of 'propulsion'. The legislation does not specify what power sources are or are not to be used, simply that whatever is used MUST be zero emission.

HVO is not zero emission so has a very short life.

 

If EDiesel (which is zero emission) is available then using ICE engines would be allowed & well in advance of the legislation by being zero emission 'ahead of time'.

So when you burn EDiesel in a diesel engine what comes out of the exhaust pipe?

 

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5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Re @Up-Side-Down's post. If RCR are correct that this is different to the previous problem they found then one has to ask "what changed" and one answer may be HVO is now available and is replacing FAME as the bio-addition from some suppliers. I just hope the IWA do some diligent research into how it reacts with the addition of the variety of additives that are on the market because once again certain additives MIGHT be implicated.

You've flagged up a very important point here Tony and until I had a lengthy conversation with Stephanie Horton of RCR a couple of weeks ago, it was not something that had really entered into the equation. I was aware of the farmer-related issues locally – https://www.nfus.org.uk/news/news/union-drives-forward-on-fuel-issues & https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/18640971.farmers-updated-problems-biodiesel-fuel-filters/ and word on the grapevine was that they were probably related to the additive used to bring the CPP in line with dino-diesel.

 

As far as I'm aware only a lubricity additive is used in HVO as it has a similar lubricity to ULSD. HVO is 100% miscible which could, inadvertently, be its downfall (in the short-term) until the fuel companies get to the bottom of what appears to be an additive-induced issue as it will inevitably be mixed with B7 and the soon to be mandated B12.

 

We have an organic chemist in the group and also someone who has spent his working life in the diesel injection industry, first with Lucas and then Delphi. The third member runs a fleet of tugs on the tidal Thames powered by meaty 750 hp Blackstone and 1250 hp Caterpillar lumps, which he now operates on Green D+ HVO as the PLA and DEFRA ramp up their clean policies for the City and the estuary. Green D+ is interesting in that it contains an organic additive which reduces NoX by around 35%.

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Just now, Up-Side-Down said:

So when you burn EDiesel in a diesel engine what comes out of the exhaust pipe?

 

 

There are a large number of scientific documents which I do not understand the chenistry.

 

It is classsed as clean-burning and zero emission and is already produced in many countries so 'history is available.

 

Fuel From Algae

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39 minutes ago, dmr said:

Thanks, I can't remember which company I spoke to, but I think it was somewhere in Yorkshire, I think they said that red HVO was not available. Can a 200l drum be delivered anywhere or do you need to meet fuel storage requirements like a bunded store?

 

I will have a look on the www and see if there is any mention of HVO and Stanadyne pumps

 

We have cut our coal consumption by 75% so far this winter so it might be nice to go a bit greener on the diesel too.

 

.............Dave

If I read the situation aright (digging around in my befuddled brain) I seem to remember that when I was involved with 1st generation biodiesel and straight vegetable oil (SVO) Standyne and Delphi pumps (together with a Japanese make or two) fell into the category of 'weak pumps' that didn't like the additional viscosity of SVO or cold biodiesel. As you say, HVO has a lower SG than dino-diesel so puts less strain on the high pressure side of the pump.

 

As far as I'm aware a 205 litre drum can be delivered anywhere and it is up to you how you store it. I have a 1000 litre IBC sitting outside my boat (well a couple of hundred yards away to be precise) which came off a rag-sided delivery lorry. HVO is after all an organic product and 100% biodegradable. My minimal spills haven't affected the grass around the IBC. The stuff has no smell in the IBC and a greatly reduced odour at the exhaust pipe or chimney. Re-fuelling is in no way an unpleasant process! 

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There are a large number of scientific documents which I do not understand the chenistry.

 

It is classsed as clean-burning and zero emission and is already produced in many countries so 'history is available.

 

Fuel From Algae

 I only ask as there are so many ways of looking at this Alan. Carbon neutral is obviously one ........ but then is it taken as 'well to wheel' or just at the point of burn. Hydrogen is often viewed as the holy grail but right now it's damned expensive stuff to produce even if, in a fuel cell, the only exhaust is water! HVO would be 100% carbon neutral if it weren't for the hydrogen used in its manufacture which knocks it down to around 92% well to wheel.

 

Growing our fuel from an algae has a great appeal to me as the certified feedstock for HVO which undoubtedly run out at some point as uptake increases. At present manufacturers go to great length to obtain independent certification that it is produced from used cooking oil and not crops grown on land that could otherwise be used for food production. Already the EU is unable to produce sufficient volume and China are getting in on the act, which means that traceability will become more and more difficult.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is not the manufacture of engines that is banned - it is the manufacture of non-zero emission methods of 'propulsion'. The legislation does not specify what power sources are or are not to be used, simply that whatever is used MUST be zero emission.

HVO is not zero emission so has a very short life.

 

If EDiesel (which is zero emission) is available then using ICE engines would be allowed & well in advance of the legislation by being zero emission 'ahead of time'.

Sometimes people get confused between zero carbon and zero particulates and also carbon neutral. Also, there are concerns regarding NO as as as CO2

 

Also, there was originally a move away from oil based products on the basis of 'peak oil' ie it just will not be available at some point. Zero carbon is about what is put into the atmosphere when the fuel is used. If someone could find an economic way of capturing the CO2 then diesel could continue as long as it is available. (In theory!)

Edited by Mike Todd
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12 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

If I read the situation aright (digging around in my befuddled brain) I seem to remember that when I was involved with 1st generation biodiesel and straight vegetable oil (SVO) Standyne and Delphi pumps (together with a Japanese make or two) fell into the category of 'weak pumps' that didn't like the additional viscosity of SVO or cold biodiesel. As you say, HVO has a lower SG than dino-diesel so puts less strain on the high pressure side of the pump.

 

As far as I'm aware a 205 litre drum can be delivered anywhere and it is up to you how you store it. I have a 1000 litre IBC sitting outside my boat (well a couple of hundred yards away to be precise) which came off a rag-sided delivery lorry. HVO is after all an organic product and 100% biodegradable. My minimal spills haven't affected the grass around the IBC. The stuff has no smell in the IBC and a greatly reduced odour at the exhaust pipe or chimney. Re-fuelling is in no way an unpleasant process! 

Rotary pumps are seen as weak but in my case (the JD3) they don't get anywhere near their rated speed so the stresses are low. They do contain a viscosity compensation mechanism which might be good.

I have just done a bit of www research. There are a couple of mentions of lubricity and that a lubricity additive would be a good idea with HVO.

 

My biggest concern is that I am vegetarian and leaning towards vegan (cheese is the problem) and currently it looks like HVO contains a lot of animal fat, it will be much better when its more plant based. Supporting the animal slaughter industry does also have a big negative effect on the environment, though you can argue that HVO is only a by-product.

 

So as HVO looks like such a good fuel why do we put rubbish FAME into our fuel, why not just put a bit of HVO in and avoid a load of trouble?

 

.............Dave 

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42 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

You've flagged up a very important point here Tony and until I had a lengthy conversation with Stephanie Horton of RCR a couple of weeks ago, it was not something that had really entered into the equation. I was aware of the farmer-related issues locally – https://www.nfus.org.uk/news/news/union-drives-forward-on-fuel-issues & https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/18640971.farmers-updated-problems-biodiesel-fuel-filters/ and word on the grapevine was that they were probably related to the additive used to bring the CPP in line with dino-diesel.

 

snip

The paper from Steph that I have seen identifies two components of the problem stuff. has she given that info to you because I think a decent chemist may be able to work out what the precurser(s) was/are.

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2 hours ago, dmr said:

 

 

So as HVO looks like such a good fuel why do we put rubbish FAME into our fuel, why not just put a bit of HVO in and avoid a load of trouble?

That's something I'd like to explore too. My immediate response would be that 1st generation (FAME) biodiesel is cheaper to produce ........ but there may well be more to it than that.

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3 hours ago, dmr said:

My biggest concern is that I am vegetarian and leaning towards vegan (cheese is the problem) and currently it looks like HVO contains a lot of animal fat, it will be much better when its more plant based. Supporting the animal slaughter industry does also have a big negative effect on the environment, though you can argue that HVO is only a by-product.

Just checked with the latest figures that I have available and 85 million litres of biodiesel are produced from waste cooking oil and 20 million litres from tallow. If you want to delve further see the table on page 4: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/856695/nonfood-statsnotice2018-08jan20.pdf

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

The paper from Steph that I have seen identifies two components of the problem stuff. has she given that info to you because I think a decent chemist may be able to work out what the precurser(s) was/are.

Rest assured Tony I will be following this up ........ or rather someone who knows his chemistry will!

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3 hours ago, dmr said:

My biggest concern is that I am vegetarian and leaning towards vegan (cheese is the problem) and currently it looks like HVO contains a lot of animal fat, it will be much better when its more plant based.

 

What percentage of fish do you think your red diesel is made from? ;)

 

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7 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

What percentage of fish do you think your red diesel is made from? ;)

 

I'm not a good vegetarian, I like eating a bit of fish, but that's an interesting thought.

 

It would be good to see some "wider" figures for HVO, how much CO2 etc is produced by the fertilizers used to grow the crop, the tractors to harvest it and the factories to process it, and we are using precious land to grow the crop that should perhaps be used for growing food or just supporting wildlife. Maybe burning dino-diesel is not such a bad thing?   but if the bigger figures do add up it does look very attractive foe applications were electricity is not so convenient.

 

Just had a quick read of the interesting document that UpSideDown linked to, if we share out the annual UK production of HVO we get about 6 litres each, that's not much boating.

 

................Dave

 

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3 minutes ago, dmr said:

I'm not a good vegetarian, I like eating a bit of fish, but that's an interesting thought.

 

It would be good to see some "wider" figures for HVO, how much CO2 etc is produced by the fertilizers used to grow the crop, the tractors to harvest it and the factories to process it, and we are using precious land to grow the crop that should perhaps be used for growing food or just supporting wildlife. Maybe burning dino-diesel is not such a bad thing?   but if the bigger figures do add up it does look very attractive foe applications were electricity is not so convenient.

 

Just had a quick read of the interesting document that UpSideDown linked to, if we share out the annual UK production of HVO we get about 6 litres each, that's not much boating.

 

................Dave

 

That's an interesting bit of maths Dave. Bare in mind that 99% of biodiesel is made from re-used cooking oil that would otherwise go to landfill. The provenance of the waste cooking oil used to make HVO is independently monitored and certified as being a waste product and not grown on land that should be used for growing food crops.

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