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"Sticky Diesel" stops several canal boats


Alan de Enfield

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18 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

With the RTFC (effectively a subsidy on biofuels) only being reclaimable by the fuel supplier against sales of eligible fuel (this is for propulsion only in the inland waterways arena) they are obviously very jumpy about what a consignment of HVO is being used for. The RTFC is worth between £0.65 and £0.85/litre and if the supplier can't demonstrate to DfT that the fuel was used for legitimate purposes, within the scope of the RTFO mechanism, this not inconsiderable sum will suddenly cease to be available to them.

 

Oh, and do make sure you're sitting down before he quotes you a price. Even with the RTFC support it's still up around the £2/litre mark.

 

 

Lying in bed thinking about this (as you do)

 

If the fuel is being subsidised to the tune of ~85p, and the fuel is currently ~£2 per litre does this mean that the 'tru cost' of the fuel is nearer £3 a litre - ot have I got it wrong ?

 

Who is paying the subsidy to the fuel suppliers ?

 

If it is the Governement, is it possible / likely that in their dash-for-cash this could be one of the things that are cut and HVO market price suddenly becomes ~£3 per litre ?

 

Who will pay £3 a litre when white diesel is available at the pimps for under £2 a litre ?

The effect on the the cost to the freight industry that are trying to go green' could be horrendous - and - would of course be passed onto the consumer.

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7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Lying in bed thinking about this (as you do)

 

If the fuel is being subsidised to the tune of ~85p, and the fuel is currently ~£2 per litre does this mean that the 'tru cost' of the fuel is nearer £3 a litre - ot have I got it wrong ?

 

Who is paying the subsidy to the fuel suppliers ?

 

If it is the Governement, is it possible / likely that in their dash-for-cash this could be one of the things that are cut and HVO market price suddenly becomes ~£3 per litre ?

 

Who will pay £3 a litre when white diesel is available at the pimps for under £2 a litre ?

The effect on the the cost to the freight industry that are trying to go green' could be horrendous - and - would of course be passed onto the consumer.

I wouldn't wish this on anyone but if you Google the Road Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO) you will gain an insight into the mechanism that generates Road Transport Fuel Certificates (RTFCs). In short, any fuel producer manufacturing more a certain amount per year (44,000 litres comes to mind but I'm likely wrong) – their obligation in fact – must pay an agreed sum per litre sold into the market place. When I first got involved in these shenanigans it was around £0.33/litre but I believe its gone up. This  is 'put into a pot' and is redistributed to biofuel producers within the transport sector. The value of a RTFC varies and until recently was £0.42 and HVO attracted 2 of them per litre sold, hence the £0.84/litre 'subsidy'. Right now the value of an RTFC has dropped to the £0.25 – £0.30 mark meaning that the pump price of HVO has potentially risen. And yes, you are correct, the real cost of manufacturing and marketing HVO c/w the full duty and VAT is very close to £3.00/litre. Just so long as Government doesn't reappropriate the 'pot', the RTFC support of biofuels for the agreed sectors is secure. What is more likely to happen is that they will move the goalposts and inland waterways could cease to be eligible for RTFC support. This mechanism has been around for something like 14 years I believe so is pretty mainstream and not a dodgy, hole in the corner operation!

 

Just to complete this boring saga, taking things full circle, the reason why DfT won't allow RTFC support to extend to the domestic consumption of HVO runs along these lines: "Mrs Jones buys 10 litres of diesel at the pumps which she puts into her CAR. This in turn puts something like £3.30 into the RTFC 'pot' which then becomes available to support RTFCs for biofuels. This is fine in Mrs Jones' book (I doubt anyone actually checked back with her) as long as the HVO gets used within the transport sector (and inland waterways is ... but deep sea is not (even the definition of 'Inland Waterways' is "fun" as it varies winter to summer!!) but it's not fair on Mrs Jones if the RTFC that she has helped 'pay for' gets used by someone to subsides the heating in their boat – i.e. something that is not 'transport' ".

 

You can't make it up ......... but this, unfortunately, is the line that DfT have adopted and one that IWA and RYA will have to fight them on once the world situation settles down ....... as in world energy prices and the Ukraine situation: both not a million miles from one another.

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22 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

I wouldn't wish this on anyone but if you Google the Road Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO) you will gain an insight into the mechanism that generates Road Transport Fuel Certificates (RTFCs). In short, any fuel producer manufacturing more a certain amount per year (44,000 litres comes to mind but I'm likely wrong) – their obligation in fact – must pay an agreed sum per litre sold into the market place. When I first got involved in these shenanigans it was around £0.33/litre but I believe its gone up. This  is 'put into a pot' and is redistributed to biofuel producers within the transport sector. The value of a RTFC varies and until recently was £0.42 and HVO attracted 2 of them per litre sold, hence the £0.84/litre 'subsidy'. Right now the value of an RTFC has dropped to the £0.25 – £0.30 mark meaning that the pump price of HVO has potentially risen. And yes, you are correct, the real cost of manufacturing and marketing HVO c/w the full duty and VAT is very close to £3.00/litre. Just so long as Government doesn't reappropriate the 'pot', the RTFC support of biofuels for the agreed sectors is secure. What is more likely to happen is that they will move the goalposts and inland waterways could cease to be eligible for RTFC support. This mechanism has been around for something like 14 years I believe so is pretty mainstream and not a dodgy, hole in the corner operation!

 

Just to complete this boring saga, taking things full circle, the reason why DfT won't allow RTFC support to extend to the domestic consumption of HVO runs along these lines: "Mrs Jones buys 10 litres of diesel at the pumps which she puts into her CAR. This in turn puts something like £3.30 into the RTFC 'pot' which then becomes available to support RTFCs for biofuels. This is fine in Mrs Jones' book (I doubt anyone actually checked back with her) as long as the HVO gets used within the transport sector (and inland waterways is ... but deep sea is not (even the definition of 'Inland Waterways' is "fun" as it varies winter to summer!!) but it's not fair on Mrs Jones if the RTFC that she has helped 'pay for' gets used by someone to subsides the heating in their boat – i.e. something that is not 'transport' ".

 

You can't make it up ......... but this, unfortunately, is the line that DfT have adopted and one that IWA and RYA will have to fight them on once the world situation settles down ....... as in world energy prices and the Ukraine situation: both not a million miles from one another.

What a mess! When I purchased mine I did it conjunction with a friend who has a party boat, clearly this meets the rules.

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3 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

It does just so long as you don't show a heater, cooker or WhisperGen a drop of the stuff ........

Whispergen sold bubble stove gone, just a genny which doesn't meet the rules I suspect although it creates enough electric to run the electric motor in emergency 

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37 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

I wouldn't wish this on anyone but if you Google the Road Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO) you will gain an insight into the mechanism that generates Road Transport Fuel Certificates (RTFCs).

 

Your explanation is more than enough - but thanks for such a clear explanation of the complexities. I think I have a handle on it now.

 

I get to read thru' enough legal gobblygook without adding the RTFO rules.

 

Basically - if I buy HVO based on the farm usage, and put it in my boat and it runs the Ebersplutter I am being very naughty !

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Basically - if I buy HVO based on the farm usage, and put it in my boat and it runs the Ebersplutter I am being very naughty !

 

And at the same time you are so very responsibly saving the planet. A point that seems to have bin lost by the guvvermint in all the complex regulation so painstakingly described by that nice Mr U-S-D.

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
Fiddle with it...
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8 hours ago, frangar said:

Interestingly my marina is no longer stocking HVO and has gone back to dino diesel....unsure of the reason behind it.

A shame 

Must be due to cost - which must be due to the energy required to make the HVO fuel.

Subsidising HVO out of diesel duty for the marine and inland waterways sector would  be good from a reduced emissions perspective. I would have thought the price of HVO only has to be subsidised to match  diesel to make HVO attractive to both the retailer and the boater.

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1 minute ago, MartynG said:

A shame 

Must be due to cost - which must be due to the energy required to make the HVO fuel.

Subsidising HVO out of diesel duty for the marine and inland waterways sector would  be good from a reduced emissions perspective. I would have thought the price of HVO only has to be subsidised to match  diesel to make HVO attractive to both the retailer and the boater.

I will try to remember to ask the reason when Im next home and passing the office why they have stopped selling it...it was only a few pence per litre more when they did start to stock it. It did seem to be the ideal fuel especially when it might be stored for any length of time.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I am being very naughty !

VERY!!

 

If Scottish Canals hadn't elected to do due diligence before stocking HVO (along with the Broads Authority I believe that they are the only navigation authority that currently do) this anomaly would never have surfaced and 'the body could have remained buried' which is how things stood a year or so ago.

 

However, you'll probably be aware that all the commercial and passenger-carrying vessels plying the tidal Thames are now running on HVO and you can bet your sweet life that the tug skippers and all the Uber passengers are not freezing their nuts off (those that are that way endowed that is). In that watery arena the body remains buried as I know for a fact that many of the vessels concerned have a single diesel tank. The tugs, operating around the tides as they do,  are often lived on 24/7 and heating, lighting and cooking is all supplied by separate, engine-room generators.

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And at the same time you are so very responsibly saving the planet. A point that seems to have bin lost by the guvvermint in all the complex regulation so painstakingly described by that nice Mr U-S-D.

 

 

 

Exactly so! Emissions are emissions whether they are released by burning fuel in a stove or in an engine. In a sensible world every opportunity to reduce them should grasped with both hands and pair of RTFCs.

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

What we don't know is how much emissions are involved in making it.

More energy is required compared to diesel I suspect , which would explain the higher price  of HVO.

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Plenty of energy is required for making diesel so it would be interesting to compare the two

It would be good to understand that .

Google doesn't seem to find any reliable data.

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11 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It would be good to understand that .

Google doesn't seem to find any reliable data.

You also need to consider that when they are cracking oil, lots of things are produced whether you want them or not for the inputted energy, if diesel is one of them why waste it. The HVO probably needs the energy for one product.

 

It would be nice to know the answer or maybe like most things the price is what the market will stand.

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A bit like the by products produced from the retort of the old town gas works. Working down,  gas, ammonia sold off for aluminium making, naphthalene, benzol, Prussian blue. anthracene oil, and tar, bitumen. coke, clinker for land drainage and for making breeze blocks, finally Cobolt eventually devlops in the gas works slag heaps and sold of for paint pigments and maybe bombs. All from lumps of coal.  Incredible..   I forgot. Soot for fluride in toothpaste,

Edited by bizzard
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15 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

You also need to consider that when they are cracking oil, lots of things are produced whether you want them or not for the inputted energy, if diesel is one of them why waste it. The HVO probably needs the energy for one product.

 

It would be nice to know the answer or maybe like most things the price is what the market will stand.

I understand that the hydrogen is the expensive bit and its 'brown' source is what renders HVO only 90% carbon neutral. Once 'green' hydrogen is used in its manufacture we will have a product that is pretty much 100% carbon neutral and if the wind power used to produce it would otherwise have gone to waste (middle of the night stuff) it would be hoped that the price of HVO would come down. Right now we can only speculate.

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7 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

I understand that the hydrogen is the expensive bit and its 'brown' source is what renders HVO only 90% carbon neutral. Once 'green' hydrogen is used in its manufacture we will have a product that is pretty much 100% carbon neutral and if the wind power used to produce it would otherwise have gone to waste (middle of the night stuff) it would be hoped that the price of HVO would come down. Right now we can only speculate.

We don't even make it! Apparently ours comes from Finland?

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