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"Sticky Diesel" stops several canal boats


Alan de Enfield

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14 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have an awful lot of black grunge at the bottom of my tank! I suspect I will be cutting a hatch  in it to clean it out! I will post pictures if it happens 

If you think your fuel has been stolen could it equally be you have been given someone's bug infested fuel ? 

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1 minute ago, MartynG said:

If you think your fuel has been stolen could it equally be you have been given someone's bug infested fuel 

I don't know, everything has been ok  genny running great, then its gradually started to stop on its own, leave it to cool down it's restarted. I have been on with other stuff so have just got around to investigate, ran it until it stopped, no fuel coming out of bleed screw. Leave it to cool down open bleed fuel runs. Look at fuel guard filter clear, no water at all dip fuel tank 8 inches of fuel odd as I put at least a 100 litres in it on top of what was there! 

Remove fuel guard sticky residue on outside of the element white deposits on inside. Clean reassemble poor flow! Fit auxiliary tank with HVO in it genny starts runs doesn't stop. The issue is what I have in the tank isn't sticky and isn't particularly red so I don't know. I have used marine 16 and I have earlier this year cleaned from the bottom of the tank and found no water. I will be doing this again. 

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59 minutes ago, MartynG said:

So is this diesel bug or something else ? 

Seems like the equivalent of cooking oil changing to solid fat at at a certain temperature?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is the usual thing of fuel waxing at low temperatures but I am pretty sure thats not whats going on here. There is another much less common issue where the fuel turns into a sort of marmalade. I had this a few years ago. Sadly the thread (and photos) was removed because Tony Dunkley and friends got involved.

In my case the filters and lines were all clean but the stuff apeared in the injection pump and injectors as if changes in temperature and/or pressure were part of the mechanism.

I did loads of www research and also spoke to a few "experts" but never got to the bottom of it. My "conclusion" based on little more than guessing is that something in the fuel, a component of some fuel additives, the copper fuel pipes and a low temperature, somehow conspired together to make trouble.

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13 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

There is the usual thing of fuel waxing at low temperatures but I am pretty sure thats not whats going on here. There is another much less common issue where the fuel turns into a sort of marmalade. I had this a few years ago. Sadly the thread (and photos) was removed because Tony Dunkley and friends got involved.

In my case the filters and lines were all clean but the stuff apeared in the injection pump and injectors as if changes in temperature and/or pressure were part of the mechanism.

I did loads of www research and also spoke to a few "experts" but never got to the bottom of it. My "conclusion" based on little more than guessing is that something in the fuel, a component of some fuel additives, the copper fuel pipes and a low temperature, somehow conspired together to make trouble.

My filter was blocked solid with something very sticky! I have no idea what is happening.

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3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

My filter was blocked solid with something very sticky! I have no idea what is happening.

I think HVO is lovely stuff, but as its manmade from various feedstocks I wonder if there is a possibility of getting a bad batch? I do hope not, I am getting more if and when I can. Getting anything red delivered is getting very difficult.

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4 minutes ago, dmr said:

......based on little more than guessing is that something in the fuel, a component of some fuel additives, the copper fuel pipes and a low temperature, somehow conspired together to make trouble.

Perhaps with HVO additives  should be avoided.

 

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2 hours ago, dmr said:

I think HVO is lovely stuff, but as its manmade from various feedstocks I wonder if there is a possibility of getting a bad batch? I do hope not, I am getting more if and when I can. Getting anything red delivered is getting very difficult.

 

 

Is there any particular reason to think HVO would not be susceptible to diesel bug? 

 

 

Hey, I've just thought up a new theory about where Covid-19 came from!!!

 

 😅

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Just now, MtB said:

 

 

Is there any particular reason to think HVO would not be susceptible to diesel bug? 

 

 

It does not suck in water like the FAME part of dyno diesel does, and it doesn't decompose like wot FAME does. I was very impressed with the stuff. It made my engine run significantly better (higher cetane????), I thought maybe this was just optimism but I have gone back to the old stuff and the engine is again sounding harsh. HVO made much less smoke so must burn better, and it don't make yer hands and cloths smell. Shame its so hard to get hold of, though just buying ordinary red diesel at the garage is pretty difficult these days..

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12 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Is there any particular reason to think HVO would not be susceptible to diesel bug? 

 

 

 

The extract below indicates HVO does not promote the development of bug .

image.png.bbdd77f977e750d4954acec7a7229a60.png

 

However if you mix HVO with diesels the full benefits of HVO will not be achieved and we can never rely entirely on the supplier delivering uncontaminated fuel. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, MartynG said:

The extract below indicates HVO does not promote the development of bug .

image.png.bbdd77f977e750d4954acec7a7229a60.png

 

However if you mix HVO with diesels the full benefits of HVO will not be achieved and we can never rely entirely on the supplier delivering uncontaminated fuel. 

 

 

 

 

Good find! 

 

Especially interesting as it also suggests HVO does not suffer from low temperature waxing like dino-juice, in which case WTF is that stuff that looks like beef dripping in the photos a little way up the thread?!! 

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
Fiddle with it...
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18 minutes ago, MartynG said:

The extract below indicates HVO does not promote the development of bug .

image.png.bbdd77f977e750d4954acec7a7229a60.png

 

However if you mix HVO with diesels the full benefits of HVO will not be achieved and we can never rely entirely on the supplier delivering uncontaminated fuel. 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Good find! 

 

Especially interesting as it also suggests HVO does not suffer from low temperature waxing like dino-juice, in which case WTF is that stuff that looks like beef dripping in the photos a little way up the thread?!! 

 

 

 

I think my issue was caused by the old diesel in the tank, as I said I topped up with HVO before my summer trip. I will pump it all out and put a endoscope into the tank before deciding my next step

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24 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Good find! 

 

Especially interesting as it also suggests HVO does not suffer from low temperature waxing like dino-juice, in which case WTF is that stuff that looks like beef dripping in the photos a little way up the thread?!! 

The beef dripping is  a concern.

It could be a diesel issue rather than a HVO issue . 

 

If information is correct HVO is a the perfect fuel for boats as it is claimed to have a log shelf life as  well  as huge reduction in emissions 

image.png.366e153f7b0c16f049e4c80b8277b227.png

 

Unfortunately the marine industry, including inland waterways , and its consumers are slow to adopt  anything  new . By that I mean anything not proven over  decades .

 

According to Speedy fuels they have vast stocks of  HVO available . So perhaps they would like to make it price competitive with diesel

image.png.7e9da835922e61e581f09e8b357bb8ae.png

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

According to Speedy fuels they have vast stocks of  HVO available . So perhaps they would like to make it price competitive with diesel

 

When I contacted them they only offered 'white' (full duty paid) and it was priced  quite a bit higher than 'Forecourt white diesel'.

Whilst I have 2800 litre fuel tank on my boat very few Narrowboaters  would be able to work with their minimum order quantity

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35 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

If information is correct HVO is a the perfect fuel for boats as it is claimed to have a log shelf life as  well  as huge reduction in emissions

 

Trouble for boaters is, this also makes it the perfect fuel for agriculture demand from which will swamp that from boats, leaving none for us. Probably. 

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31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When I contacted them they only offered 'white' (full duty paid) and it was priced  quite a bit higher than 'Forecourt white diesel'.

Whilst I have 2800 litre fuel tank on my boat very few Narrowboaters  would be able to work with their minimum order quantity

A shame HVO is priced quite a bit higher . 

I would like to see HVO supplied by marinas but I can't see that happening unless there is  some financial advantage.

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Trouble for boaters is, this also makes it the perfect fuel for agriculture demand from which will swamp that from boats, leaving none for us. Probably. 

 I think the suppliers want to sell it to companies  that have delivery trucks  (which use  white diesel ) and wish to improve their  emissiosemission credentials.  

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, spud said:

i am confused. is this waxing / beef dripping relating to diesel or hvo or both

Spud join me in being puzzled I have normal diesel and HVO in the tank, I don't think HVO is the issue. The boat is 14 years old and early in its life I ran on full biodiesel then normal diesel and latterly HVO 

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On 06/11/2022 at 12:19, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When I contacted them they only offered 'white' (full duty paid) and it was priced  quite a bit higher than 'Forecourt white diesel'.

Whilst I have 2800 litre fuel tank on my boat very few Narrowboaters  would be able to work with their minimum order quantity

With the RTFC (effectively a subsidy on biofuels) only being reclaimable by the fuel supplier against sales of eligible fuel (this is for propulsion only in the inland waterways arena) they are obviously very jumpy about what a consignment of HVO is being used for. The RTFC is worth between £0.65 and £0.85/litre and if the supplier can't demonstrate to DfT that the fuel was used for legitimate purposes, within the scope of the RTFO mechanism, this not inconsiderable sum will suddenly cease to be available to them.

 

To this end you will be asked to sign two documents relating to usage and if there is any mention of mixed used (part propulsion/part domestic) you will likely be told that the supplier doesn't want anything to do with the sale.

 

However, if you ask for 1000 litres+, delivered to your tank on a farm or domestic premises which you state is being used solely for the propulsion of an inland waterways craft, a tractor, forestry forwarder or the like, there will almost certainly be a sale of rebated (red – duty @ £0.1114/litre) fuel which will be subjected to VAT @ 5%. 

 

Suppliers are using a variety of excuses not to bunker boats with HVO the like of which I haven't met over the 23 years I've had my boat tanks topped up by a road tanker. De-coded, what they are simply saying is that they don't want to get involved with anything that is ambiguous in terms of end use, purely down to the risk of them not getting the two RTFCs back from DfT that the sale of a litre of HVO generates which is, as I've said, effectively a subsidy. (note: this is not an HMRC matter).

 

Anyone wanting a supply of HVO, that can meet the above criteria, should contact Ryan Abreu (Crown Oil Customer Development Manager) directly on 07585 792918. He's a busy bloke and in my experience rarely answers the phone first time but if you leave a message he is reliable in getting back to you. Crown is based in Bury but have agents throughout the country who they use for local deliveries.

 

Oh, and do make sure you're sitting down before he quotes you a price. Even with the RTFC support it's still up around the £2/litre mark.

 

The above info is based on a conversation I had with Ryan yesterday in an attempt to get to the bottom the HVO supply issues regularly cropping up on this forum.

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13 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

However, if you ask for 1000 litres+, delivered to your tank on a farm or domestic premises which you state is being used solely for the propulsion of an inland waterways craft, a tractor, forestry forwarder or the like,

 

 

A lot of farming activity no longer allows them to use 'Red' eg : the Tractor used to pull the sugar-beet lifter in the field can use Red, but when the Tractor has a trailer full of sugar beet they become 'hauliers' and cannot use Red.

 

Farmers are now having to run two tanks (red and white) in effect "propulsion" (non-accepted farming activities) and "domestic" (accepted farming practices).

 

It is a nightmare - we recently had a delivery of Hay and he was explaing that he is having to use additional tractors so he can have some on 'red' and some on 'white', otherwise he has to come out of the field he is working in, drain the system, steam clean the tank & system and fill it with white. 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

A lot of farming activity no longer allows them to use 'Red' eg : the Tractor used to pull the sugar-beet lifter in the field can use Red, but when the Tractor has a trailer full of sugar beet they become 'hauliers' and cannot use Red.

 

Farmers are now having to run two tanks (red and white) in effect "propulsion" (non-accepted farming activities) and "domestic" (accepted farming practices).

 

It is a nightmare - we recently had a delivery of Hay and he was explaing that he is having to use additional tractors so he can have some on 'red' and some on 'white', otherwise he has to come out of the field he is working in, drain the system, steam clean the tank & system and fill it with white. 

It's about as lunatic as the situation prevailing around which uses of HVO attracts RTFCs and which don't and the system's total inability to accommodate mixed use. I've had some direct dealings with a couple of Government departments since I got involved with promoting waterways use of HVO and they al seem to be populated by bright young things, with excellent degrees, but with zero practical life experience. So they devise clever schemes but have no awareness or understanding of the practicalities of putting them into effect.

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2 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

It's about as lunatic as the situation prevailing around which uses of HVO attracts RTFCs and which don't and the system's total inability to accommodate mixed use. I've had some direct dealings with a couple of Government departments since I got involved with promoting waterways use of HVO and they al seem to be populated by bright young things, with excellent degrees, but with zero practical life experience. So they devise clever schemes but have no awareness or understanding of the practicalities of putting them into effect.

 

Or as my cousin in law who was engineering manager in a large pharmaceutical packing plant "highly educated idiots".

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11 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Or as my cousin in law who was engineering manager in a large pharmaceutical packing plant "highly educated idiots".

Agreed, too often ‘higher’ education, especially ‘remembering rather than understanding’ and intelligence are considered the same.  They are not.

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18 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

With the RTFC (effectively a subsidy on biofuels) only being reclaimable by the fuel supplier against sales of eligible fuel (this is for propulsion only in the inland waterways arena) they are obviously very jumpy about what a consignment of HVO is being used for. The RTFC is worth between £0.65 and £0.85/litre and if the supplier can't demonstrate to DfT that the fuel was used for legitimate purposes, within the scope of the RTFO mechanism, this not inconsiderable sum will suddenly cease to be available to them.

 

To this end you will be asked to sign two documents relating to usage and if there is any mention of mixed used (part propulsion/part domestic) you will likely be told that the supplier doesn't want anything to do with the sale.

 

However, if you ask for 1000 litres+, delivered to your tank on a farm or domestic premises which you state is being used solely for the propulsion of an inland waterways craft, a tractor, forestry forwarder or the like, there will almost certainly be a sale of rebated (red – duty @ £0.1114/litre) fuel which will be subjected to VAT @ 5%. 

 

Suppliers are using a variety of excuses not to bunker boats with HVO the like of which I haven't met over the 23 years I've had my boat tanks topped up by a road tanker. De-coded, what they are simply saying is that they don't want to get involved with anything that is ambiguous in terms of end use, purely down to the risk of them not getting the two RTFCs back from DfT that the sale of a litre of HVO generates which is, as I've said, effectively a subsidy. (note: this is not an HMRC matter).

 

Anyone wanting a supply of HVO, that can meet the above criteria, should contact Ryan Abreu (Crown Oil Customer Development Manager) directly on 07585 792918. He's a busy bloke and in my experience rarely answers the phone first time but if you leave a message he is reliable in getting back to you. Crown is based in Bury but have agents throughout the country who they use for local deliveries.

 

Oh, and do make sure you're sitting down before he quotes you a price. Even with the RTFC support it's still up around the £2/litre mark.

 

The above info is based on a conversation I had with Ryan yesterday in an attempt to get to the bottom the HVO supply issues regularly cropping up on this forum.

I suspect once I have worked my way through my current HVO no more will be Available at my price of .79 a litre last year. Although at my current usage I hope it will last the 10 years promised :lol:

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