"Sticky Diesel" stops several canal boats

[dmr]

16 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

That's an interesting bit of maths Dave. Bare in mind that 99% of biodiesel is made from re-used cooking oil that would otherwise go to landfill. The provenance of the waste cooking oil used to make HVO is independently monitored and certified as being a waste product and not grown on land that should be used for growing food crops.

We do have a car which I feel guilty about, and do some train journeys, but don't do flying, so our fuel use is mostly the boat. This is about 1200litres/year for two people so 600 each. With a big effort we could maybe get that down to 600litres so 300 each. Our HVO "allocation" is about 12 litres which is 4% which for a relatively new technology is actually pretty good.

 

(Not sure my 6litres/person figure is accurate as it might include a lot of imported HVO ingredients)

 

................Dave

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, dmr said:

We do have a car which I feel guilty about, and do some train journeys, but don't do flying, so our fuel use is mostly the boat. This is about 1200litres/year for two people so 600 each. With a big effort we could maybe get that down to 600litres so 300 each. 

I use that much in mt boiler at home, so in my book your doing well already. We haven't taken a plane for some years now

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I use that much in mt boiler at home, so in my book your doing well already. We haven't taken a plane for some years now

The concept that boat living is low impact is interesting. I don't think living in a poorly insulated steel tube and constantly moving is a good start, living in a well insulated house of equivalent smallness would be better, but then we would need overseas holidays to keep sane. We also don't include all the energy used in canal maintenance and back pumping. But, we manage on 1200litres diesel, 1000kg of coal and about 100kg of gas each year.

I also fear that we consume almost as much beer as diesel but I don't worry about that, its mostly only water.

 

This winter we have access to a good supply of wood and also are burning eCoal which is 50% olive stones, and with more organised electricity use are running the engine less when not moving. The bad news is the beer consumption has gone up.

 

...........Dave

[Chewbacka]

10 hours ago, dmr said:

The concept that boat living is low impact is interesting. I don't think living in a poorly insulated steel tube and constantly moving is a good start, living in a well insulated house of equivalent smallness would be better, but then we would need overseas holidays to keep sane. We also don't include all the energy used in canal maintenance and back pumping. But, we manage on 1200litres diesel, 1000kg of coal and about 100kg of gas each year.

I also fear that we consume almost as much beer as diesel but I don't worry about that, its mostly only water.

 

This winter we have access to a good supply of wood and also are burning eCoal which is 50% olive stones, and with more organised electricity use are running the engine less when not moving. The bad news is the beer consumption has gone up.

 

...........Dave

Does ecoal burn ok or do you have to mix it with proper coal?

[dmr]

29 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Does ecoal burn ok or do you have to mix it with proper coal?

I've been aware of it for some time but avoided it because like you I thought it would be no good. So....

eCoal is the best stuff we have ever used, its on a par with Homefire Ovals but without the smell and with less ash. Its a reconstituted 50:50 mixture of proper Welsh coal and  olive stones. Burns well and stays in overnight nicely.

I am currently paying £10 per 25kg because the local coalyard purchased a lot a couple of years ago and we are the only people buying it from him. Its almost gone and he's not keen to get any more for just one customer.  Looking at the www £14 per 25kg is about typical, but £12 if you can buy 40 bags (free delivery).

 

.................Dave

[Sea Dog]

4 hours ago, dmr said:

I've been aware of it for some time but avoided it because like you I thought it would be no good. So....

eCoal is the best stuff we have ever used, its on a par with Homefire Ovals but without the smell and with less ash. Its a reconstituted 50:50 mixture of proper Welsh coal and  olive stones. Burns well and stays in overnight nicely.

I am currently paying £10 per 25kg because the local coalyard purchased a lot a couple of years ago and we are the only people buying it from him. Its almost gone and he's not keen to get any more for just one customer.  Looking at the www £14 per 25kg is about typical, but £12 if you can buy 40 bags (free delivery).

 

.................Dave

Interesting, and good to see you're a happy customer. We tried a bag of eCoal a while back but didn't go with it, can't remember why, but I have a feeling it was quite expensive and we went through it noticeably quicker than the usual 2.5 bags a week. You've covered the cost element, but might the burn rate also be an issue or do you find it ok?

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, dmr said:

I've been aware of it for some time but avoided it because like you I thought it would be no good. So....

eCoal is the best stuff we have ever used, its on a par with Homefire Ovals but without the smell and with less ash. Its a reconstituted 50:50 mixture of proper Welsh coal and  olive stones. Burns well and stays in overnight nicely.

I am currently paying £10 per 25kg because the local coalyard purchased a lot a couple of years ago and we are the only people buying it from him. Its almost gone and he's not keen to get any more for just one customer.  Looking at the www £14 per 25kg is about typical, but £12 if you can buy 40 bags (free delivery).

 

.................Dave

Are you still in my part of the world? Which local coalyard?

[dmr]

36 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Are you still in my part of the world? Which local coalyard?

Yes, we are almost continuous moorers but are already making big boating plans for next year. We get coal from the lovely coalyard by Hebden Bridge station. We can get 40 bags delivered to us directly, I have a place to store it but it does not have access for an articulated lorry. I will talk to the coalyard and see if we can do a deal as he very sensibly has a flat bed Landrover which is just right for the local terrain.

 

..............Dave

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Interesting, and good to see you're a happy customer. We tried a bag of eCoal a while back but didn't go with it, can't remember why, but I have a feeling it was quite expensive and we went through it noticeably quicker than the usual 2.5 bags a week. You've covered the cost element, but might the burn rate also be an issue or do you find it ok?

It can be quite expensive if you buy little bags at the Co-op etc, but £12 for 25kg is a good price. I have not properly monitored how much we are using but its not noticably more than with other coals, though we are burning a lot more wood this year so can't make a direct comparison.

 

...............Dave

[ditchcrawler]

Wicks do it as well https://www.wickes.co.uk/Homefire-Ecoal-50-Smokeless-Coal---10-Kg-Bag/p/151160

[bizzard]

''The Range'' do Brazier at £3.99p per 10 kg bag and Aldi do Flame or New flame at £3.99p per 10 kg bag.  I don't think either do Old flame though.

[dmr]

5 hours ago, bizzard said:

''The Range'' do Brazier at £3.99p per 10 kg bag and Aldi do Flame or New flame at £3.99p per 10 kg bag.  I don't think either do Old flame though.

A recycled Olive might just be an old flame? ?

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, dmr said:

A recycled Olive might just be an old flame? ?

That made my eye-pop.

[GUMPY]

On 11/12/2020 at 17:51, ditchcrawler said:

Wicks do it as well https://www.wickes.co.uk/Homefire-Ecoal-50-Smokeless-Coal---10-Kg-Bag/p/151160

Ooo on offer at £15 for 3bags

Less my TRADEPRO discount that makes it £11.25 for 25kg.

Seems worth considering.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Ooo on offer at £15 for 3bags

Less my TRADEPRO discount that makes it £11.25 for 25kg.

Seems worth considering.

Someone posted a cheaper supplier, it was young Bis suggesting The Range

[BD3Bill]

This is a very interesting thread indeed. 

How many times have we been told that red diesel is exactly the same as white, just with marker added , on this forum? 

Perhaps this is not the case after all ? 

It would be wrong to suggest that fuel companies are being lax with the recycling of used cooking oil of course! 

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, BD3Bill said:

How many times have we been told that red diesel is exactly the same as white, just with marker added , on this forum? 

Perhaps this is not the case after all ? 

 

Why do you think white diesel is any different apart from the marker?  You do realise they have been adding biodiesel into white for years now?

 

The main difference seems to be that it sits in boat tanks for longer (sometimes for years) than in most cars/vans, and that more people add extra additives to their boat tank than their car tank because they think it's a good idea.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, BD3Bill said:

This is a very interesting thread indeed. 

How many times have we been told that red diesel is exactly the same as white, just with marker added , on this forum? 

Perhaps this is not the case after all ? 

It would be wrong to suggest that fuel companies are being lax with the recycling of used cooking oil of course! 

 

 

In the early days of 7% FAME I attended a conference on bio-diesel put on by the Institute of Road Transport Engineers. One speaker was from Mabernaft (spelling?) who although unknown to retail fuel customers supply many supermarket pumps and transport operators' bulk tanks. They said they had problems getting FAME with a low enough water contend and of the quality they required. This suggest to me that FAME and HVO are bought in by the refineries/fuel depots and some may well be substandard.

[BD3Bill]

45 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

In the early days of 7% FAME I attended a conference on bio-diesel put on by the Institute of Road Transport Engineers. One speaker was from Mabernaft (spelling?) who although unknown to retail fuel customers supply many supermarket pumps and transport operators' bulk tanks. They said they had problems getting FAME with a low enough water contend and of the quality they required. This suggest to me that FAME and HVO are bought in by the refineries/fuel depots and some may well be substandard.

Thanks for this Tony. Hydrogenated fats mixed in with animal fats, vegetable oil, olive oil etc then no doubt. Greenie for you Sir ! 

[BD3Bill]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Why do you think white diesel is any different apart from the marker?  You do realise they have been adding biodiesel into white for years now?

 

The main difference seems to be that it sits in boat tanks for longer (sometimes for years) than in most cars/vans, and that more people add extra additives to their boat tank than their car tank because they think it's a good idea.

Ouch ! Yes obviously I realise that, with all the problems that brings to forecourt managers btw. FWIW , I agree that the additives are snake oil/sticking plasters too. I was referring to the incidents of agricultural machinery breaking down described in the OP. I had an issue with a wood chipper with a fuel blockage that was unusual a few months ago, could have been all the usual suspects, good to keep ones knowledge up to date, no ? 

Not sure of the need to truncate my post as you did. 

[TheBiscuits]

30 minutes ago, BD3Bill said:

Not sure of the need to truncate my post as you did. 

 

Nothing personal, I just trimmed the quote to the relevant bit I was replying to like I did here.

 

It makes the point clearer to the reader and has been classed as good etiquette for decades, dating back to when data transfer and storage was expensive.  

[BD3Bill]

14 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Nothing personal, I just trimmed the quote to the relevant bit I was replying to like I did here.

 

 

I learned something today, thanks ?

[Up-Side-Down]

22 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

In the early days of 7% FAME I attended a conference on bio-diesel put on by the Institute of Road Transport Engineers. One speaker was from Mabernaft (spelling?) who although unknown to retail fuel customers supply many supermarket pumps and transport operators' bulk tanks. They said they had problems getting FAME with a low enough water contend and of the quality they required. This suggest to me that FAME and HVO are bought in by the refineries/fuel depots and some may well be substandard.

As far as I'm aware Tony there is no HVO being blended with dino-diesel to give B7 but I'm happy to be corrected. This would be on price and availability grounds alone.

[peterboat]

On 10/12/2020 at 10:49, Up-Side-Down said:

On behalf of the IWA Sustainable Propulsion group I am currently running a trial using Hydro-treated Vegetable Oil (HVO) in combinations of inland boat diesel engines and domestic heating and cooking devices. HVO carries OEM approvals from all the major diesel engine manufacturers so I'm not anticipating problems with propulsion issues but we need to establish that it is happy in everything from an Eberspacher through to Dickinson ...... and everything in between! So far everything is looking good.

 

Classic boat engines are obviously outside this range of OEM approvals with manufacturers having long ago ceased production, so there is a Bolinder and 5-cylinder Gardner lined in an extension to the trial due to be conducted in the spring.

 

Currently availability of HVO is very limited with, as far as I'm aware, just 3 suppliers in GB – 2 in the London area. Crown Oils (the 3rd supplier – https://www.crownoil.co.uk/products/hvo-fuel-hydrotreated-vegetable-oil/) are based in Bury and do have a national distribution network. They are promoting HVO in a big way and reckon that for the time being at least it will run out at about £0.10/litre more than gas oil. My experience, at least where small quantities are concerned, is that the figure is currently closer to £0.20/litre.

 

At present its a supply and demand equation (coupled with availability) in the sense that there is relatively little available due to limited demand. Subject to it ticking all the combined use boxes, IWA will be promoting it as the drop in alternative to dino-diesel as at 92% carbon neutral, with fell swoop it takes inland boating a long way down the road to net zero. Yes, it is superior to dino-diesel in every respect as you say and in a recent Land and Water trial https://www.crownoil.co.uk/news/crown-hvo-fuel-in-a-modern-2bt-excavator-land-water-case-study/ it gave an improved fuel consumption go 10%. NoX is down by a similar amount and with a 1% retardation in injector setting, NoX can be reduced by around 35%.

 

I could ramble on for ages but for those that want to see where IWA have got to (including a copy of the letter now sitting on the Chancellor's desk from the chairman of the APPG for the Waterways with a series of relevant waterway-related 'Asks') go to: https://www.waterways.org.uk/about-us/news/electric-charging-points-gain-support?utm_campaign=IWA+Updates&utm_content=IWA+Bulletin%3A+

 

 

I used full biodiesel for may years with no issues in my Barrus shire and bubble stove, however my whispergen [sterling engine version] did not like it at all, it blocked the evaporator quite quickly and was almost impossible to clean.

Whilst it is much more carbon neutral in the using making it still requires lots of energy and reagents so my suppliers thinks 60% is the best for it over dino diesel.

Interestingly I have have paid less for it than red diesel so maybe its a regional thing?

The trip boat in Sheffield LB Hardfoot has nearly always ran on it and he thinks its the future in the short term, long term he believes like me electric is the way forward

Edited December 14, 2020 by peterboat

[peterboat]

On 13/12/2020 at 09:06, Loddon said:

Ooo on offer at £15 for 3bags

Less my TRADEPRO discount that makes it £11.25 for 25kg.

Seems worth considering.

Expensive Julian local coal merchant £7 for 25 kilos of smokeless fuel