Gravel Barges upset Anglers

[Jerra]

5 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

To suggest that large commercial vessels are responsible now when they haven't been in the past is just complete nonsense.

How do you know they weren't in the past?   The statement "there have always been dead fish suggests they might have been responsible.   Its worth discussing not merely saying it doesn't happen.

 

There is equally no proof that the waterway hasn't changed over the time the barges didn't run and it is a new phenomenon.

 

It is interesting to see the automatic defence of the barges by boaters without even considering all possibilities.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Jerra said:

How do you know they weren't in the past?   The statement "there have always been dead fish suggests they might have been responsible.   Its worth discussing not merely saying it doesn't happen.

 

There is equally no proof that the waterway hasn't changed over the time the barges didn't run and it is a new phenomenon.

 

It is interesting to see the automatic defence of the barges by boaters without even considering all possibilities.

Well having spent a few years boating there whilst barges were actually running previously and not witnessing a plethora of dead fish would be my starting point.

 

It's not an 'automatic' defence it's one based on logic, common sense and practical experience of boating (and actually mooring long term) on the waterway in question.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[BWM]

On 06/12/2020 at 18:54, tree monkey said:

Considering how some areas of the BCN are, it's not impossible for historic pollution to settle in the silt, the other suggestion was eutrophic silt which is a natural process, disturbing this can cause release of methane.

 

Like I have said I am just suggesting a general how, rather than issues specific to this waterway because I am not familiar with it

Some of the traffic of the past was incredibly poisonous and some would potentially remain in the silt, the phosphorus carried by Alfred Matty, printing and dyeing waste, power station ooze being just some of the noxious stuff. It is not permitted for building to take place on dirty land, due to historic pollutants many decades after business  ceased. 

On 06/12/2020 at 19:34, ivan&alice said:

Hypocrites. Definitely boats and boaters can cause harm to wildlife but it's usually an unfortunate side effect.

The actual goal of an angler is to harm fish.

 

Anyone who doesn't agree that angling harms fish should be pulled underwater by a hook through their lip and held there for five minutes while their photo is taken and height measured before being tossed back onto land.

 

Trapping animals for food is one thing, but doing it just for the pleasure of sitting around outside for long periods, with occasional cruelty, is something I have never understood. If you are an angler, best shut up about the wellbeing of fish lest you draw attention to the plank in your own eye.

Sounds like you've had a bad day, and i wondered who may be the hypocrites as the statement works both ways, until i read the rant. 

 The goal of anglers is not to harm fish and it is absurd to suggest that, whilst i'm sure fish ade unlikely to enjoy the experience it doesn't do lasting harm, there are carp in some waters 60 years old that have been caught many times and are none the worse for it and they are certainly not tossed onto the bank after capture - with the exception of some European anglers whose culture is not compatible with uk fisheries. The same individuals lay out multi hook long lines and gill nets, both of which cause suffering and death to fish, fowl and mammals and would go unnoticed by all if not for fishermen. They are doing it for food though, so i guess that's ok with you. 

 Have you any insight into the fishing industry? Hauling hundreds of thousands of fish, along with aquatic creatures as by catch - all either thrown back dead or condemned to gasp a slow demise on deck or in hold - a fish can last well over an hour out of water. But that's fine, its for the table.

[tehmarks]

2 hours ago, BWM said:

 The goal of anglers is not to harm fish and it is absurd to suggest that, whilst i'm sure fish ade unlikely to enjoy the experience it doesn't do lasting harm, there are carp in some waters 60 years old that have been caught many times and are none the worse for it...

Quote

Fish fulfill several criteria proposed as indicating that non-human animals may experience pain. (Wikipedia)

Quote

In her book Do Fish Feel Pain?, biologist Victoria Braithwaite says that “there is as much evidence that fish feel pain and suffer as there is for birds and mammals."

If my chosen sport were to walk up to random strangers and slap them around the face, it wouldn't do lasting physical harm but it'd be most unacceptable. Illegal, in fact.

 

Skewering fish by the mouth of the end of a barbed hook, just for shits and giggles, is barbaric. That they so often inflict suffering on other animals too is unacceptable; you only need to see one duck or swan clearly in discomfort with a fish hook sticking out of their body to understand that. Anglers preaching about welfare of the local fauna is hypocrisy of the highest order.

 

Is my opinion, at least.

[Joe Bourke]

My word, all this about one lightly loaded barge doing 1 trip a week on the Aire & Calder Canal. It's probably got the same impact on fish as a canoe on the Oxford Canal.

Anglers in general don't want boats on their patch. The CRT don't want the commercial traffic back,  it's no secret they've tried everything in the book to stop it. So surprise surprise, we've now got a barge not even fully loaded slaughtering fish on it's one trip a week to Leeds.

[BWM]

6 hours ago, tehmarks said:

If my chosen sport were to walk up to random strangers and slap them around the face, it wouldn't do lasting physical harm but it'd be most unacceptable. Illegal, in fact.

 

Skewering fish by the mouth of the end of a barbed hook, just for shits and giggles, is barbaric. That they so often inflict suffering on other animals too is unacceptable; you only need to see one duck or swan clearly in discomfort with a fish hook sticking out of their body to understand that. Anglers preaching about welfare of the local fauna is hypocrisy of the highest order.

 

Is my opinion, at least.

Enjoying a hobby that some disagree with does not exclude them from caring for the environment and its inhabitants or speaking out on its behalf, or is in any way hypocritical. It is an undeniable fact that the environment is very often positively affected by the interests of anglers, for example most quarries would have been backfilled after the minerals had been extracted, instead they were leased by angling clubs and now form the basis of country parks. The environment agency is most often contacted by anglers when problems of pollution and the like occur.

 Would you suggest that powerlines are removed? These are responsible for many swan fatalities - a crude comparison but i took the inspiration from yours. I have seen far more birds covered in an oily film than those afflicted by discarded tackle, on a ratio of at least 100 to 1. Many nature reserves allow angling without incident, which suggests that they don't "so often inflict suffering on wildlife"

 Barbed hooks are very much a rarity these days, and are banned in most places.

[Jerra]

42 minutes ago, BWM said:

Enjoying a hobby that some disagree with does not exclude them from caring for the environment and its inhabitants or speaking out on its behalf, or is in any way hypocritical.

Anybody who has read my posts over the years will know I am very wildlife biased and to some extent I agree with the above, but I can't see how hooking an animal in the mouth is very caring.

Quote

t is an undeniable fact that the environment is very often positively affected by the interests of anglers, for example most quarries would have been backfilled after the minerals had been extracted, instead they were leased by angling clubs and now form the basis of country parks. The environment agency is most often contacted by anglers when problems of pollution and the like occur.

Correct if their own officer doesn't pick it up first.  I forget the title he had but a mate worked the county rivers and waterways checking for pollution and then appearing in court as an expert witness.

Quote

 Would you suggest that powerlines are removed? These are responsible for many swan fatalities - a crude comparison but i took the inspiration from yours. I have seen far more birds covered in an oily film than those afflicted by discarded tackle, on a ratio of at least 100 to 1.

I would make a couple of points to this.  The first being that when swans hit power lines they are generally dead very soon after if not instantaneously.   They don't suffer from having a hook in them or lead poisoning (yes I know that is going down).

 

The second is of course you see more birds harmed by oil for the simple reason there are more sources of oily film, fram pollution, washed of roads, dare I say it boats etc

Quote

Many nature reserves allow angling without incident, which suggests that they don't "so often inflict suffering on wildlife"

Never having visited a reserve which allows angling could you tell me a few and who runs them please.

Quote

 Barbed hooks are very much a rarity these days, and are banned in most places.

That doesn't seem to prevent them embedding in wildlife and staying put.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Jerra

[peterboat]

7 hours ago, Joe Bourke said:

My word, all this about one lightly loaded barge doing 1 trip a week on the Aire & Calder Canal. It's probably got the same impact on fish as a canoe on the Oxford Canal.

Anglers in general don't want boats on their patch. The CRT don't want the commercial traffic back,  it's no secret they've tried everything in the book to stop it. So surprise surprise, we've now got a barge not even fully loaded slaughtering fish on it's one trip a week to Leeds.

I thought it was 2 boats a week? At least it has been as far as I know?

[Joe Bourke]

8 hours ago, peterboat said:

I thought it was 2 boats a week? At least it has been as far as I know?

Normally it's just Farndale.   Fusedale has had a go but it's been sporadic.  Whichever barge goes it's not a full load unless the dredging gets done up on the River Aire.

I moor right by them.  As it happens while typing this Farndale has just passed going inbound.  At least I think it was,  it's a peasouper here.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Joe Bourke said:

Normally it's just Farndale.   Fusedale has had a go but it's been sporadic.  Whichever barge goes it's not a full load unless the dredging gets done up on the River Aire.

I moor right by them.  As it happens while typing this Farndale has just passed going inbound.  At least I think it was,  it's a peasouper here.

Just a spare boat if needed then?

[BWM]

13 hours ago, Jerra said:

Anybody who has read my posts over the years will know I am very wildlife biased and to some extent I agree with the above, but I can't see how hooking an animal in the mouth is very caring.

Correct if their own officer doesn't pick it up first.  I forget the title he had but a mate worked the county rivers and waterways checking for pollution and then appearing in court as an expert witness.

I would make a couple of points to this.  The first being that when swans hit power lines they are generally dead very soon after if not instantaneously.   They don't suffer from having a hook in them or lead poisoning (yes I know that is going down).

 

The second is of course you see more birds harmed by oil for the simple reason there are more sources of oily film, fram pollution, washed of roads, dare I say it boats etc

Never having visited a reserve which allows angling could you tell me a few and who runs them please.

That doesn't seem to prevent them embedding in wildlife and staying put.

I did not suggest at any time that hooking a fish is caring, and i'm sure you understood that was not even close to the meaning of my comment.

 The environment agency has no right of access to private land prior to an event of pollution or other matter demanding their attention, although they do monitor problem areas but much of their work is reactive on report. 

I never attempted to justify any harm to wildlife but only to balance the picture given by mr angry, the true picture is that many injured creatures will be taken to rescue centres by anglers, or environmental problems reported. Anglers on Napton reservoir this year liased with a swan rescue to aid youngsters that were clearly suffering from some unknown ailment, all bar one were saved and this is repeated across the country. 

 The oil i am talking about came from nowhere other than boats, most times it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to identify the source.

 Areas of the Colne valley fall into this designation, one being the area around Springwell lake but there are others and i believe Coombe abbey would also fall into this category. Others like Ryton and Daventry country parks are strongly orientated to wildlife conservation but not strictly nature reserves. Very close to me is Sutton park, designated as a national nature reserve - the list is endless. 

 Again with barbless hooks you have changed the context of my remark, which was an answer to the other post and had nothing to do with wildlife. The way tackle comes into conflict with wildlife is at the hands of the ignorant, and these have the same effect on everything they do in life and are not unique to angling. The same specimens generally drop litter, have fires in stupid places and so on, whatever they are partaking in on the day.  

Edited December 9, 2020 by BWM

[Joe Bourke]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Just a spare boat if needed then?

Yes it seems to be, for now anyway.

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, Joe Bourke said:

Yes it seems to be, for now anyway.

Shame wish it was like it used to be with waddingtons etc running up and down 

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Shame wish it was like it used to be with waddingtons etc running up and down 

Fusedale H and Kirkby pictured (by me)  in April 2012 swapping places a Bulholme Lock Castleford.

 

 

And from the hey day.

 

Lots of the river Trent but New Junction canal appears too.

 

 

[Jerra]

1 hour ago, BWM said:

I did not suggest at any time that hooking a fish is caring, and i'm sure you understood that was not even close to the meaning of my comment.

Of course I realised but it doesn't sit well with caring for wildlife.

1 hour ago, BWM said:

 The environment agency has no right of access to private land prior to an event of pollution or other matter demanding their attention, although they do monitor problem areas but much of their work is reactive on report. 

How strange my mate was until he retired employed full time by them visiting rivers and waterways crossing fields etc and checking the state of things.   He never mentioned any case of visiting the farm to obtain permission.   Quite the contrary he gave the impression that he had the right to visit where he wanted.

1 hour ago, BWM said:

I never attempted to justify any harm to wildlife but only to balance the picture given by mr angry, the true picture is that many injured creatures will be taken to rescue centres by anglers, or environmental problems reported. Anglers on Napton reservoir this year liased with a swan rescue to aid youngsters that were clearly suffering from some unknown ailment, all bar one were saved and this is repeated across the country. 

I am well aware  of the good anglers do but that tends to skim over the harm they do.   A bit like the shooting fraternity continually claim the conservation good they do and ignore the birds of prey killed tec.

1 hour ago, BWM said:

 The oil i am talking about came from nowhere other than boats, most times it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to identify the source.

 Areas of the Colne valley fall into this designation, one being the area around Springwell lake but there are others and i believe Coombe abbey would also fall into this category. Others like Ryton and Daventry country parks are strongly orientated to wildlife conservation but not strictly nature reserves. Very close to me is Sutton park, designated as a national nature reserve - the list is endless. 

National Nature reserve (which are a political name) rather than genuine reserves do currently still allow angling but is periodically reviewed and the pendulum is swinging away from angling.

1 hour ago, BWM said:

 Again with barbless hooks you have changed the context of my remark, which was an answer to the other post and had nothing to do with wildlife. The way tackle comes into conflict with wildlife is at the hands of the ignorant, and these have the same effect on everything they do in life and are not unique to angling. The same specimens generally drop litter, have fires in stupid places and so on, whatever they are partaking in on the day.  

I would agree there are complete wassocks among all parts of society.   However in many areas things are improving.   Litter isn't the problem it was 40 or so years ago.   Thinking of two examples, parks I knew were regularly (always) dotted with white where little was lying, agricultural shows had armies of people forming litter picking lines as soon the public left.   We regularly have stands at shows and these days the fields are pristine as the traders leave.  Fires seem to be reducing in number at least here in the Lakes.  At one time every bay would have a number of fire signs trees chopped etc.  Until this years lockdown things were much better, I haven't been roaming the lakes much since to see if things have gone down hill.

[tehmarks]

2 hours ago, BWM said:

The way tackle comes into conflict with wildlife is at the hands of the ignorant, and these have the same effect on everything they do in life and are not unique to angling. The same specimens generally drop litter, have fires in stupid places and so on, whatever they are partaking in on the day.  

The way oil from boats comes into conflict with wildlife is at the hands of the ignorant, and these have the same effect on everything they do in life and are not unique to boating. The same specimens generally drop litter, have fires in stupid places and so on, whatever they are partaking in on the day.

[Up-Side-Down]

21 hours ago, Joe Bourke said:

My word, all this about one lightly loaded barge doing 1 trip a week on the Aire & Calder Canal. It's probably got the same impact on fish as a canoe on the Oxford Canal.

Anglers in general don't want boats on their patch. The CRT don't want the commercial traffic back,  it's no secret they've tried everything in the book to stop it. So surprise surprise, we've now got a barge not even fully loaded slaughtering fish on it's one trip a week to Leeds.

That's about the long and the short of it!

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Fusedale H and Kirkby pictured (by me)  in April 2012 swapping places a Bulholme Lock Castleford.

 

 

And from the hey day.

 

Lots of the river Trent but New Junction canal appears too.

 

 

Nice pic!

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

That's about the long and the short of it!

Nice pic!

Just had the Exol pride come past my boat wonderful sight and what this navigation was designed for

[Pluto]

Once you could get rainbow trout at Castleford,  but then they closed the dyeworks alongside the Calder.

 

Reverting to subject, when they were carrying grain from Liverpool to Manchester along the L&LC in the 1970s, most of the anglers were really happy as the boats passing stirred up the mud and stopped most of the weed in the canal from proliferating, as it does now.

[peterboat]

5 hours ago, Jerra said:

Of course I realised but it doesn't sit well with caring for wildlife.

How strange my mate was until he retired employed full time by them visiting rivers and waterways crossing fields etc and checking the state of things.   He never mentioned any case of visiting the farm to obtain permission.   Quite the contrary he gave the impression that he had the right to visit where he wanted.

I am well aware  of the good anglers do but that tends to skim over the harm they do.   A bit like the shooting fraternity continually claim the conservation good they do and ignore the birds of prey killed tec.

National Nature reserve (which are a political name) rather than genuine reserves do currently still allow angling but is periodically reviewed and the pendulum is swinging away from angling.

I would agree there are complete wassocks among all parts of society.   However in many areas things are improving.   Litter isn't the problem it was 40 or so years ago.   Thinking of two examples, parks I knew were regularly (always) dotted with white where little was lying, agricultural shows had armies of people forming litter picking lines as soon the public left.   We regularly have stands at shows and these days the fields are pristine as the traders leave.  Fires seem to be reducing in number at least here in the Lakes.  At one time every bay would have a number of fire signs trees chopped etc.  Until this years lockdown things were much better, I haven't been roaming the lakes much since to see if things have gone down hill.

Lots of hill in those lakes to go down hill ?