Gravel Barges upset Anglers

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Maybe they could and maybe you could if it exercises you enough.

I don't know the waterway being talked about and I am only presenting possibilities but the Cov is shallow and the stirring up of silt is normal, in effect the habitat has adapted to it.

If a waterway has been boat free for a while the habitat will have evolved in a different way and it is a possibility that a sudden silt load caused by boats could cause, for example, fish deaths.

It is not uncommon for sudden change in a habit management to negatively effect the animal/plant life living there, sometimes this can actually be beneficial long term, other times not

Plenty of massive fish in the canal system

The waterway in question is probably amongst the deepest manmade waterways in England. It has to be to accommodate the commercial boats that traverse it.

[tree monkey]

16 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

The waterway in question is probably amongst the deepest manmade waterways in England. It has to be to accommodate the commercial boats that traverse it.

Thank you, but I was trying to offer a suggestion as to how these things could happen in general, I am sure there are specific issues particular to the waterway in discussion it could all of course be just down to a grumpy fisherman.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Thank you, but I was trying to offer a suggestion as to how these things could happen in general, I am sure there are specific issues particular to the waterway in discussion it could all of course be just down to a grumpy fisherman.

Like lots of canals there was a fair bit of industrialisation along side including mines and chemical works. But pretty much all gone now of course. The biggest site there now is Ferrybridge power station.

 

I guess some sort of industrial pollution is possible but unlikely currently unless something is leaching from a former site.

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Like lots of canals there was a fair bit of industrialisation along side including mines and chemical works. But pretty much all gone now of course. The biggest site there now is Ferrybridge power station.

 

I guess some sort of industrial pollution is possible but unlikely currently unless something is leaching from a former site.

There was that big chemical factory at knottingly after the pit travelling towards castleford, it used to manufacture sulpheric acid amongst other things if I remember, it's long gone though 

[tree monkey]

5 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Like lots of canals there was a fair bit of industrialisation along side including mines and chemical works. But pretty much all gone now of course. The biggest site there now is Ferrybridge power station.

 

I guess some sort of industrial pollution is possible but unlikely currently unless something is leaching from a former site.

Considering how some areas of the BCN are, it's not impossible for historic pollution to settle in the silt, the other suggestion was eutrophic silt which is a natural process, disturbing this can cause release of methane.

 

Like I have said I am just suggesting a general how, rather than issues specific to this waterway because I am not familiar with it

[Alway Swilby]

21 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Like lots of canals there was a fair bit of industrialisation along side including mines and chemical works. But pretty much all gone now of course. The biggest site there now is Ferrybridge power station.

 

I guess some sort of industrial pollution is possible but unlikely currently unless something is leaching from a former site.

And that's been closed for a number of years.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

And that's been closed for a number of years.

Indeed,.but the site is still 'active' due the construction of the replacement multi fuel replacement.

 

Or has that gone now too?

Edited December 6, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[jetzi]

Hypocrites. Definitely boats and boaters can cause harm to wildlife but it's usually an unfortunate side effect.

The actual goal of an angler is to harm fish.

 

Anyone who doesn't agree that angling harms fish should be pulled underwater by a hook through their lip and held there for five minutes while their photo is taken and height measured before being tossed back onto land.

 

Trapping animals for food is one thing, but doing it just for the pleasure of sitting around outside for long periods, with occasional cruelty, is something I have never understood. If you are an angler, best shut up about the wellbeing of fish lest you draw attention to the plank in your own eye.

[matty40s]

In the last lockdown, just finished, angling was banned (although catch fishing was allowed). The first weekend there was a competition in our local stretch.....after many anglers the day before just practicing.

[Jerra]

37 minutes ago, matty40s said:

In the last lockdown, just finished, angling was banned (although catch fishing was allowed). The first weekend there was a competition in our local stretch.....after many anglers the day before just practicing.

You did of course report this toi the proper authorities.

[David Mack]

10 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Does anybody know what this is supposed to mean. (taken from the article).

 

“The barges have got a massive section of water coming in and then spitting it back out. We think it’s sucking the fish in and blowing them out and killing them.

 

 

I assumed this was a reference to direct or indirect engine cooling, where water is drawn from the canal and either passed through the engine or through a heat exchanger, and then spat out over the side.

The water inlet will have a grid over it to prevent debris being drawn in, so fish (other than perhaps tiddlers) are not being sucked through engines.

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, Jerra said:

You did of course report this toi the proper authorities.

Of course, alert stretched police forces to a non crime happening on a remote towpath.

There are many things this .Gov has got very wrong, an angling in the countryside ban is one of them.

 

[Jerra]

5 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Of course, alert stretched police forces to a non crime happening on a remote towpath.

There are many things this .Gov has got very wrong, an angling in the countryside ban is one of them.

 

I wasn't exactly thinking of police but at least pointing out to CRT and the club they were being more than daft.

 

EDIT.  Anything which makes people think they can/should avoid the advice will merely prolong the restrictions.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Jerra

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

I wasn't exactly thinking of police but at least pointing out to CRT and the club they were being more than daft.

 

EDIT.  Anything which makes people think they can/should avoid the advice will merely prolong the restrictions.

Explain to me how an angling match on a towpath in November is going to prolong anything more than 

1. Keeping schools open.

2. Allowing 200k+ people to cram into Oxford and Regent St yesterday.

3. Allowing Santas Grottos and Carol Singing...but not angling...

 

Following the science..not

 

Oh, and throw this one into the mix....if you are really rich and own a company, you dont have to isolate for 14 days , as bidding for new business means the Covid19 virus will automatically not bother infecting you as Grant Shnapps says it's ok matey.

[Mike Todd]

10 hours ago, matty40s said:

Explain to me how an angling match on a towpath in November is going to prolong anything more than 

1. Keeping schools open.

2. Allowing 200k+ people to cram into Oxford and Regent St yesterday.

3. Allowing Santas Grottos and Carol Singing...but not angling...

 

Following the science..not

 

Oh, and throw this one into the mix....if you are really rich and own a company, you dont have to isolate for 14 days , as bidding for new business means the Covid19 virus will automatically not bother infecting you as Grant Shnapps says it's ok matey.

As I understand it, the 'rules' are constructed by adding together a number of measures, each with different levels of impact, to get sufficient attenuation of transmission to reduce the overall infection rate. It is not a matter of either-or but both-and.

 

More recently, the decision making has become even more political in the sense that the choices are based not only on the impact on transmission but also other aspects such as economic viability. The latter never claims to be science, other than in the older term 'political science'. Choices have to be made and in this country we have a system in which they are made by a group of people elected by the whole population.

 

We can all have a view on which activity is better to ban or to allow but we cannot have all of them.

[Steilsteven]

17 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

I assumed this was a reference to direct or indirect engine cooling, where water is drawn from the canal and either passed through the engine or through a heat exchanger, and then spat out over the side.

The water inlet will have a grid over it to prevent debris being drawn in, so fish (other than perhaps tiddlers) are not being sucked through engines.

Yes that is what I thought he meant too. The man is a fool who has no knowledge whatsoever of cooling systems. If it was even remotely possible that fish got drawn into the system it would come out liquefied by a combination of being chopped up by the pump and being forced through the heat transfer tubes and being cooked in the process.

 

Keith

[howardang]

9 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Yes that is what I thought he meant too. The man is a fool who has no knowledge whatsoever of cooling systems. If it was even remotely possible that fish got drawn into the system it would come out liquefied by a combination of being chopped up by the pump and being forced through the heat transfer tubes and being cooked in the process.

 

Keith

He may have meant the cooling system, but alternatively he could have been speaking about the large amount of water sucked into the propeller which is then ejected. That experience would also have given a fish a severe headache!

 

Howard

[Guest]

6 hours ago, howardang said:

He may have meant the cooling system, but alternatively he could have been speaking about the large amount of water sucked into the propeller which is then ejected. That experience would also have given a fish a severe headache!

 

Howard

But that wouldn't account for this being a recent phenomenon. 

 

These boats have as you will know, been running for decades. So why just recently is there an issue after they started running again after a break?

 

The whole article suggesting it's the gravel barges is complete BS, written by an aspiring journalist on an A level course placement given an 'exclusive' to work on.

 

[Jerra]

Have the gravel barges run constantly for a decade or so or has there been a break in their operation?

[Mike Todd]

8 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Have the gravel barges run constantly for a decade or so or has there been a break in their operation?

That's what Happy Nomad mentioned in the post before yours . . . but I know all about overlapping responses!

[Jerra]

5 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

That's what Happy Nomad mentioned in the post before yours . . . but I know all about overlapping responses!

Whoops! 

 

A cynic (me? never!) would say some are saying there has always been dead fish because they are thinking back to before the barges stopped.   That would then account for CRT saying there had been recent reports of dead fish.

 

Surely not because the barges are causing the problem?

[TheBiscuits]

53 minutes ago, Jerra said:

 

A cynic (me? never!) would say some are saying there has always been dead fish because they are thinking back to before the barges stopped.   That would then account for CRT saying there had been recent reports of dead fish.

 

Surely not because the barges are causing the problem?

 

I have seen dead fish on waterways where the gravel barges don't run too ...

 

It's sensible to investigate the possible cause of any significant fish death increase, but it's better to do the investigation before deciding on the cause.

 

 

[Dave123]

On 05/12/2020 at 20:17, The Happy Nomad said:

I don't think the need to identify the source is in doubt.

 

What we have here though is the equivalent of the master of the hunt raising concerns about foxes being killed on a newly built dual carriageway.

This!!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

Have the gravel barges run constantly for a decade or so or has there been a break in their operation?

Large vessels have travelled the Aire & Calder ever since it was opened. It's whole 'raison d'être' was/is to carry large commercial loads whether it be coal using Tom Puddings or 'sectional' boats and gravel using barges or 'pusher' tugs/sectional boats. That is why it is so so wide and deep and it's locks so so big.

 

I'd have to dig my 'History of the A&C' book out to suss out exactly when motorised vessels became common place but it's certainly much much more than a decade or even three or four. Pusher tugs and Tom puddings for example go back to the late 1800's.

 

Yes it is correct commercial traffic ceased for a while, (this was after we left in 2015) but has restarted this year, or possibly end of last year. There is a thread on here about it.

 

To suggest that large commercial vessels are responsible now when they haven't been in the past is just complete nonsense.

[Jerra]

19 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I have seen dead fish on waterways where the gravel barges don't run too ...

 

It's sensible to investigate the possible cause of any significant fish death increase, but it's better to do the investigation before deciding on the cause.

 

 

This had you not noticed is a discussion forum.    You don't get discussion without all possibilities being put forward.

 

As regards having seen dead fish on other canals, so have I.

 

The things which make this worthy of discussion IMO are.

 

1.  The quantity of fish.   I haven't seen numbers worth commenting on elsewhere.   People seem to think these are in numbers worth mentioning.

 

2.   Whether or not the dead fish coincide with the gravel barges running.

 

3.  The age old "it must be the boats" v "it's the anglers

 

4.  Any dead fish in numbers worth reporting to CRT is worth considering and looking for possible causes.

 

5.  Any potential wildlife problem is worth discussing.

 

6.  If things weren't mentioned on the forum before the cause was known half the threads wouldn't exist.   For example Jp3 reduction box oil seal and Engine Rooms/ Sleeping Accommodation to take just two from near the top of VNC