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An Overplated Situation


BoatjackHorseboat

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A 30 ft narrowboat moored here needing a full overplate sold recently for £1000.

The engine and interior were ok.If you can get it much cheaper then take the risk.Personally,I wouldn't buy a boat that needed overplating,but as has been pointed out,many do.

Being of modest means,I now have a fibreglass cruiser,and although not as suitable as a narrowboat on canals,it is good enough.

Being realistic,I don't think you will get a decent steel narrowboat for less than £30K.

I know some people have,but they have been either lucky or have considerable knowledge of boats.

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1 hour ago, BWM said:

If you go the overplating route i'd discuss if 8mm base/5mm sides would be viable,

The problem with that is that there will still be a large % weight of the old steel remaining, add in the weight of the new 8mm base plate and you will be overloading the boat by approaching 150%, the stability and freeboard will be way, way out of kilter and the boat most likely to be unsafe.

 

Adding so much extra weight will have a fairly predicatble result.

 

17 hours ago, BoatjackHorseboat said:

The surveyor paused the survey after the hull, ......................................

Have a read of this accident report : "The boat sank within 10 seconds"

 

Port of London - River Thames (pla.co.uk)

 

It was noted by the PLA that the vessel had been the subject of extensive overplating. Whoever had recommended the overplating had also recommended partly blocking off the engine room air jalousie on the port side as its bottom edge was considered even then to be too near the waterline. The following Figure 1 below shows the effect of the overplating and the number of persons seated aft.

The buyer of the MINI MOO bought the boat on the strength of a survey report provided by the seller. The marine surveyor concerned had estimated the height of the engine air intake jalousie from water level marks on the hull although the vessel had been out of the water for a considerable time prior to his survey. He had estimated the intake to be 200 mm above the waterline but when it measured after the salvage it was only 65 mm. The marine surveyor had covered himself with the caveat that it was an estimate only. In that particular case, when the vessel sank, no life jackets were on board and at least one person on board could not swim. The survivors were very lucky that nearby boats managed to pluck them from the water immediately. The fact that a marine surveyor’s report perhaps covers him with words such as estimated does not provide much comfort if bodies have to be pulled from the water.

 

The only safe way would be to totally remove all internal fitting, walls and floor, remove the total base plate and hull sides and rebuild - the cost would be approaching that of a new-build sailaway hull.

ie totally impractical.

 

From the Instutute of marine surveyors :

Finally, the marine surveyor should remember that overplating, though a common practice, is often carried out without thought as to the unintended consequences.
We should realise that it adds weight to the vessel’s structure without adding much compensating volume and, as a direct result, the vessel necessarily sinks lower in the water. It also has a number of other unintended and often unrealised side effects.

1. By increasing the draft, it reduces the available freeboard and, therefore, the amount of reserve buoyancy.
2. It also, therefore, reduces the transverse metacentric radius (BMT), and slightly, increases the height of the centre of buoyancy (KB) usually with very little compensating reduction in the height of the centre of gravity (KG) so that the end result is a reduction in the metacentric height (GM) and a negative alteration to the characteristics of the statical stability curve i.e. a reduction in the maximum GZ value and the range of positive statical stability. [The average metacentric height of a narrowboat is about 150 mm (6 inches)].
3. It may also, depending upon where the overplating is sited, alter both the longitudinal trim and the transverse heel of the vessel with further indeterminate alterations in her statical stability curve.
4. It lowers the deck edge immersion angle and, therefore, any downflooding angle(s).
5. The double plating is usually not secured to the primary supporting structure – the shell side framing. It is also rarely fitted with centre plate plug welds and is dependent only on the edge weld for security.
6. The double plating is secured only at its edges and the greater the area of plate, the smaller the length of the attachment weld per unit area and, therefore, the greater the stresses in those welds.
7. The corrosion or pitting, being the reason for fitting the doubling plates, means the corrosion or pitting will still remain there and, if it is on the inside of the original shell plate, will still be increasing. Doubling, therefore, is merely hiding the problem, not repairing it.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I don't know how many steel narrowboats there are nor the age breakdown of the 'fleet' but as the years go by there will be thousands that have been patched or completely overplated so we'd better get used to it. Older boats will have suffered from the 'no need to pant the underneath' theory too. I have only known one problem with overplating (apart from fair wear and tear) and that was a persistent leak in an ancient barge from a nasty corroded area near the stern gear. The whole vessel had been overplated but the actual leak was from a few metres away, water was getting into a pinhole and seeping along between the plates and appearing somewhere else. Not a very good situation re, corrosion. 

 

As for GRP it is pretty good stuff but in flat, poorly supported areas it is not great and narrowboats are full of flat areas. Somebody might design a  sort of narrowboat using grp one day that is succesful, there have been efforts but they never caught on.

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30 minutes ago, Bee said:

I don't know how many steel narrowboats there are nor the age breakdown of the 'fleet' but as the years go by there will be thousands that have been patched or completely overplated so we'd better get used to it. Older boats will have suffered from the 'no need to pant the underneath' theory too. I have only known one problem with overplating (apart from fair wear and tear) and that was a persistent leak in an ancient barge from a nasty corroded area near the stern gear. The whole vessel had been overplated but the actual leak was from a few metres away, water was getting into a pinhole and seeping along between the plates and appearing somewhere else. Not a very good situation re, corrosion. 

 

As for GRP it is pretty good stuff but in flat, poorly supported areas it is not great and narrowboats are full of flat areas. Somebody might design a  sort of narrowboat using grp one day that is succesful, there have been efforts but they never caught on.

Highbridge? Seem to last very well.

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30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The problem with that is that there will still be a large % weight of the old steel remaining, add in the weight of the new 8mm base plate and you will be overloading the boat by approaching 150%, the stability and freeboard will be way, way out of kilter and the boat most likely to be unsafe.

Only if just overplating is all you do.

 

Most narrowboats have a load of paving slabs/bricks/scrap iron or whatever as ballast, usually laid directly on the bottom plate. If you remove some or all of this when you overplate you can compensate for the additional weight of steel. How practical this is depends on how easy it is to lift the floor to access the ballast, and how much of it may remain inaccessible below built in furniture.

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31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The problem with that is that there will still be a large % weight of the old steel remaining, add in the weight of the new 8mm base plate and you will be overloading the boat by approaching 150%, the stability and freeboard will be way, way out of kilter and the boat most likely to be unsafe.

 

Adding so much extra weight will have a fairly predicatble result.

 

Have a read of this accident report : "The boat sank within 10 seconds"

 

Port of London - River Thames (pla.co.uk)

 

It was noted by the PLA that the vessel had been the subject of extensive overplating. Whoever had recommended the overplating had also recommended partly blocking off the engine room air jalousie on the port side as its bottom edge was considered even then to be too near the waterline. The following Figure 1 below shows the effect of the overplating and the number of persons seated aft.

The buyer of the MINI MOO bought the boat on the strength of a survey report provided by the seller. The marine surveyor concerned had estimated the height of the engine air intake jalousie from water level marks on the hull although the vessel had been out of the water for a considerable time prior to his survey. He had estimated the intake to be 200 mm above the waterline but when it measured after the salvage it was only 65 mm. The marine surveyor had covered himself with the caveat that it was an estimate only. In that particular case, when the vessel sank, no life jackets were on board and at least one person on board could not swim. The survivors were very lucky that nearby boats managed to pluck them from the water immediately. The fact that a marine surveyor’s report perhaps covers him with words such as estimated does not provide much comfort if bodies have to be pulled from the water.

 

The only safe way would be to totally remove all internal fitting, walls and floor, remove the total base plate and hull sides and rebuild - the cost would be approaching that of a new-build sailaway hull.

ie totally impractical.

 

From the Instutute of marine surveyors :

Finally, the marine surveyor should remember that overplating, though a common practice, is often carried out without thought as to the unintended consequences.
We should realise that it adds weight to the vessel’s structure without adding much compensating volume and, as a direct result, the vessel necessarily sinks lower in the water. It also has a number of other unintended and often unrealised side effects.

1. By increasing the draft, it reduces the available freeboard and, therefore, the amount of reserve buoyancy.
2. It also, therefore, reduces the transverse metacentric radius (BMT), and slightly, increases the height of the centre of buoyancy (KB) usually with very little compensating reduction in the height of the centre of gravity (KG) so that the end result is a reduction in the metacentric height (GM) and a negative alteration to the characteristics of the statical stability curve i.e. a reduction in the maximum GZ value and the range of positive statical stability. [The average metacentric height of a narrowboat is about 150 mm (6 inches)].
3. It may also, depending upon where the overplating is sited, alter both the longitudinal trim and the transverse heel of the vessel with further indeterminate alterations in her statical stability curve.
4. It lowers the deck edge immersion angle and, therefore, any downflooding angle(s).
5. The double plating is usually not secured to the primary supporting structure – the shell side framing. It is also rarely fitted with centre plate plug welds and is dependent only on the edge weld for security.
6. The double plating is secured only at its edges and the greater the area of plate, the smaller the length of the attachment weld per unit area and, therefore, the greater the stresses in those welds.
7. The corrosion or pitting, being the reason for fitting the doubling plates, means the corrosion or pitting will still remain there and, if it is on the inside of the original shell plate, will still be increasing. Doubling, therefore, is merely hiding the problem, not repairing it.

Which is why i recommended discussing it, not being a boat builder myself but it is certainly something i would enquire about, especially given the extent of the pitting is unknown to us and if widespread 1mm or less would constitute a considerable weight loss in itself. 

 I think you are painting an extreme picture of the likely outcome of doing so, it is quite common now for a heavier baseplate to be fitted, with a matching removal of ballast - wether that is something the OP is prepared to do is another matter. There is also the option of replating, i.e., cutting out and letting in new steel, in some badly affected areas. Although more expensive, depending on the areas affected by pitting leaving .5mm it would be a more appropriate repair with the added bonus of no added weight. 

8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Only if just overplating is all you do.

 

Most narrowboats have a load of paving slabs/bricks/scrap iron or whatever as ballast, usually laid directly on the bottom plate. If you remove some or all of this when you overplate you can compensate for the additional weight of steel. How practical this is depends on how easy it is to lift the floor to access the ballast, and how much of it may remain inaccessible below built in furniture.

If the baseplate is that bad i would have thought that it may be possible to cut sections out to remove ballast as it wouldn't matter in the slightest if overplating, as long as the integrity is kept sound.

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Even adding 5/4mm would probably need ballast removing.  IF you did go with the overplating, I would go for 6/5mm, be prepared to strip the inside to remove much of the ballast and redistribute what was left.  Would need some careful investigations to determine just where it would sit in the water.  Use a decent surveyor.

But, if you could get it for about 3K it could be a good boat for a good few years and still be reasonably saleable, providing the market doesn't collapse from its current high.

I would be tempted if on a tight budget, having seen the sort of boats that are available for sub-£15K.

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1 minute ago, BWM said:

it is quite common now for a heavier baseplate to be fitted, with a matching removal of ballast

Agreed - my last Reeves NB had a 13mm base plate with (apparently) no ballast under the floor (none could be seen)

 

But to remove ballast from a 'finished' boat is never going to be simple as withoput removing flooring, walls, bulkheads, kitchen cupboards etc etc you will never be able to access all of the ballast, and could even make the situation worse by only being able to remove ballast from certain areas given lateral instability, or, at best, heel.

 

Overplating is a 'big and expensive enough' job, but having to do all the extra work, which in effect , is a new fit-out is just nonsense. It will still be an old overplated boat and when the time comes to sell it will not be an easy sell.

 

Buy a boat that needs some cosmetic tidying for around £30k keep it a couple or five years and sell it at a profit.

Buy the 'right boat at the right price' and you will not loose out.

Out of 18 boats I have owned over the last 30 years I only made a loss on one of them, and that was one a surveyor said was in good condition - and it wasn't - I spent £20,000 on repairs and sold it later for £20,000 less than I paid for it. A £40k hit in 18 months is a bit much.

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Shorter boats are a big problem when overplating. The additional weight has an increasing effect with reduction in hull length due to the alteration to displacement.

I know of a small Springer that was overplated and would not float at a sensible freeboard afterwards even with all the ballast removed. It sat in a shed in Market Drayton for years.

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Even adding 5/4mm would probably need ballast removing.  IF you did go with the overplating, I would go for 6/5mm, be prepared to strip the inside to remove much of the ballast and redistribute what was left.  Would need some careful investigations to determine just where it would sit in the water.  Use a decent surveyor.

But, if you could get it for about 3K it could be a good boat for a good few years and still be reasonably saleable, providing the market doesn't collapse from its current high.

I would be tempted if on a tight budget, having seen the sort of boats that are available for sub-£15K.

 

I'm sure Bizzard could come up with a design for a sort of box baseplate where the increased buoyancy of the hollow 'box' baseplate could compensate for the extra weight.  Perhaps fill it with hydrogen to gain a few more ounces of lift.

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18 minutes ago, dor said:

Even adding 5/4mm would probably need ballast removing.  IF you did go with the overplating, I would go for 6/5mm, be prepared to strip the inside to remove much of the ballast and redistribute what was left.  Would need some careful investigations to determine just where it would sit in the water.  Use a decent surveyor.

But, if you could get it for about 3K it could be a good boat for a good few years and still be reasonably saleable, providing the market doesn't collapse from its current high.

I would be tempted if on a tight budget, having seen the sort of boats that are available for sub-£15K.

 

I'm sure Bizzard could come up with a design for a sort of box baseplate where the increased buoyancy of the hollow 'box' baseplate could compensate for the extra weight.  Perhaps fill it with hydrogen to gain a few more ounces of lift.

C&RT have already solved the problem, they have moved the bottom closer to the top.

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I'd say for a budget of 15k this seems great.  At that price, you're usually getting a total wreck.  You've described a reasonably clean and tidy boat with a good engine.  And you're able to get it for 5k!  I'd snap their hand off for it.  Spend 10k on the replating and you have a solid vessel and you know exactly where you are with it.  You could very easily buy elsewhere and spend 15k on a boat which starts sinking a few months later, or has terminal engine problems.  Don't worry too much about insurance.  There are 3rd party policies which don't even need a survey, if it comes to it.  Oftentimes, an insurer will wriggle out of a claim on a fully comp policy anyway.  At the budget end of the market, there's a fair argument for not bothering with fully comp.

 

I think some on here are very unaware of the absolute dross selling for 15k these days.  It's all very well saying "save up until you have £30k" but that's easier said than done while trying to live and pay rent.  You'll probably be able to save the whole £30k more quickly while living on the boat.  Once the overplating is done, you would surely sell the boat for around the purchase price if you needed anyway, and upgrade to a fancier boat in a few year if you want.

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14 hours ago, BoatjackHorseboat said:

Hi everyone - thanks for all the thoughts so far - the insight + advice is v helpful. I'll get back re some of your other thoughts in the morning.

 

Just specifically re overplating... is the original steel thickness of an overplated boat taken into account when a future buyer's survey is undertaken? Does a surveyor measure the combined thickness? Or just the new steel added?

 

If it's just the new steel, an overplated hull with 4mm sides and 5mm base wouldn't give much leeway for insurance ie any new pitting could make it uninsurable. This is bad for us, but also perhaps going to put off a prospective buyer in (for example) 5 years time.

 

We're looking to live on the boat for as long as we're happy, but we're in our twenties and have to take into account the resale value. We're not looking to make a profit, could accept a loss, but we can't afford to write off £15k.

For me, you have hit the nail on the head. Would you buy a boat that was overplated 4mm say 5 years previously?

 

Hallmark were never one of the best, cheap basic fitout, thin steel as you have found.

 

If you only intend to live on it say 5 years and can face selling it on for say £10K then its not so bad but I think you can do better, with either a fibreglass Highbridge cruiser or a 25 year old better builder boat that was 10-6-4 steel new and has some pitting down to 4.5mm that can be spot welded, paying around £15k with a good chance of getting your money back in 10 years if you look after it.

 

 

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

For me, you have hit the nail on the head. Would you buy a boat that was overplated 4mm say 5 years previously?

 

Heritage were never one of the best, cheap basic fitout, thin steel as you have found.

 

If you only intend to live on it say 5 years and can face selling it on for say £10K then its not so bad but I think you can do better, with either a fibreglass Highbridge cruiser or a 25 year old better builder boat that was 10-6-4 steel new and has some pitting down to 4.5mm that can be spot welded, paying around £15k with a good chance of getting your money back in 10 years if you look after it.

 

 

 

1.  Is there such a thing as a 45' Highbridge which is suitable for a couple to liveaboard?

 

2.  Your example of a 25 year old boat which only needs spot welding is likely to need in excess of £25k.  Have you seen the dross which is selling for £15k?

 

I'll say again, £15k for a solid, freshly overplated boat is an absolute steal right now.

 

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12 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

1.  Is there such a thing as a 45' Highbridge which is suitable for a couple to liveaboard?

 

2.  Your example of a 25 year old boat which only needs spot welding is likely to need in excess of £25k.  Have you seen the dross which is selling for £15k?

 

I'll say again, £15k for a solid, freshly overplated boat is an absolute steal right now.

 

No,the Highbridge is 32ft.

I have re-read post #27 and it has reinforced my opinion of overplating.

If of modest means,then one has to compromise on spending, (on just about everything,not just boats.)

Is there much difference living in a 30ft hallway to 45ft.? On a day to day basis,I would think not.The main disadvantage of the smaller boat is the less amount of junk that one can carry around with them.

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1 hour ago, Mad Harold said:

No,the Highbridge is 32ft.

I have re-read post #27 and it has reinforced my opinion of overplating.

If of modest means,then one has to compromise on spending, (on just about everything,not just boats.)

Is there much difference living in a 30ft hallway to 45ft.? On a day to day basis,I would think not.The main disadvantage of the smaller boat is the less amount of junk that one can carry around with them.

I would say there's a world of difference between those two lengths for a liveaboard.  45' is pretty much the shortest length I would consider, as it just about provides room for a kitchen, living room, bathroom and permanent bedroom.  With a 30' some kind of problematic compromise is needed.  Typically either the loss of the living room and lust a small chair next to the kitchen, or the loss of a fixed bed and having to make up a bed every day.  I would rule out either option for a liveaboard.  You would also have very little storage space, when you've got all your worldly goods with you.  I don't think non-liveaboards always really grasp what this means.  Most people don't want to get by with 2 pairs of knickers!!!

 

The OP has an opportunity to buy what sounds like a thoroughly decent boat for £15k.  As I keep saying, at that price and length you're usually looking at the worst of the project boats, needing a total strip out, refit AND replating.

 

This is the cheapest boat currently at Whilton:  https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/5193.aspx

 

It's just been reduced to £17,500 having been at £22k.  It's a Springer from the 80s with original hull thickness of 5mm.  It's 32', has no fixed bed, an extremely basic kitchen, cabin height is too low for most men to stand up in and in all probability will need overplating any time soon.  There isn't even anywhere to hang clothes.  I wouldn't go anywhere near it as anything other than a hobby boat.  If I lived on that I predict I'd turn to the bottle in a big way within a few months.  It's dismal.

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The problem with that is that there will still be a large % weight of the old steel remaining, add in the weight of the new 8mm base plate and you will be overloading the boat by approaching 150%, the stability and freeboard will be way, way out of kilter and the boat most likely to be unsafe.

 

Adding so much extra weight will have a fairly predicatble result.

 

Have a read of this accident report : "The boat sank within 10 seconds"

 

Port of London - River Thames (pla.co.uk)

 

 

I have seen that report referred to many times but of all the dozens of over plated boats that are out there its the only problem I have ever read of like that. I have read of poor workmanship, where water has got between the plating but thats down to who you get to do the work

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21 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Could one of the people saying walk away direct to OP to a £15k which would be a better choice?

There have been a number of suggestions - GRP is the obvious one.

There was a GRP 'Narrow Boat' sold recently on Ebay for (I think) £8k

 

Fully Serviced 4 Berth Inland Cruiser for Sale | Aquavista

 

Maybe the planned cruising grounds of the OP would allow him to have a 'wider' boat than a NB 

 

29ft 6in x 10ft, 4 Berth Steel Hull Inland Cruiser | Aquavista

 

There are number of Steel NB's available ~£15k

Condition of steel unknown but a survey would answer the question, and, if it is OK then its a lot less inconvenience than buying one that needs stripping out, replating and rebuilding.

 

40ft x 6ft 10in, 2 Berth Used Narrowboat for sale | Aquavista

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There have been a number of suggestions - GRP is the obvious one.

There was a GRP 'Narrow Boat' sold recently on Ebay for (I think) £8k

 

Fully Serviced 4 Berth Inland Cruiser for Sale | Aquavista

 

Maybe the planned cruising grounds of the OP would allow him to have a 'wider' boat than a NB 

 

29ft 6in x 10ft, 4 Berth Steel Hull Inland Cruiser | Aquavista

 

There are number of Steel NB's available ~£15k

Condition of steel unknown but a survey would answer the question, and, if it is OK then its a lot less inconvenience than buying one that needs stripping out, replating and rebuilding.

 

40ft x 6ft 10in, 2 Berth Used Narrowboat for sale | Aquavista

 

 

 

 

Flying Horse with it's original steel thickness 10 6 4 could be worth taking a risk and having a survey.

The buyer might just be lucky.

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31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There have been a number of suggestions - GRP is the obvious one.

There was a GRP 'Narrow Boat' sold recently on Ebay for (I think) £8k

 

Fully Serviced 4 Berth Inland Cruiser for Sale | Aquavista

 

Maybe the planned cruising grounds of the OP would allow him to have a 'wider' boat than a NB 

 

29ft 6in x 10ft, 4 Berth Steel Hull Inland Cruiser | Aquavista

 

There are number of Steel NB's available ~£15k

Condition of steel unknown but a survey would answer the question, and, if it is OK then its a lot less inconvenience than buying one that needs stripping out, replating and rebuilding.

 

40ft x 6ft 10in, 2 Berth Used Narrowboat for sale | Aquavista

 

 

 

 

Only one narrowboat there .  The first is utterly unsuitable for a couple as a liveaboard.  The second is not what they're looking for, suitable really only for rivers, is clearly being sold as a project.  The third is outside of their budget even before paying for the survey.  It's also clearly being sold as a project.  It has no fixed bed or solid fuel stove.  It looks to be a wreck.  The chance of there being a sound hull under there is next to nothing.

 

This is my point, why buy some old knacker where you don't know what the score is, for more money than a bigger, tidy boat with brand new overplating and you've been able to oversee the work?

 

 

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is a boat which has been completely stripped out for refitting and the owner has given up about a quarter of the way through.  Utterly unsuitable to live on without spending thousands, and it's already over budget.  It doesn't even have a kitchen or toilet!!!!  It's 40 years old and smaller than 45'

 

All you're doing here is proving my point, that the £15k boat in front of the OP looks like a great deal.

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10 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

In normal circumstances a 30 year old boat would not pit in excess of 5mm.

 

Just to give a representative example for the benefit of the thread: my boat is about to turn 30 and has just yesterday had a survey for insurance purposes. The majority of the steel has lost, overall, a couple of tenths of a millimetre or less, and there's little pitting but up to a maximum depth of 2mm. I suspect that might be at the better end of 30 year old hulls, but it's not normal for steel to turn to cheese in that timeframe.

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When my boat was 23 years old there was no pitting anywhere that was greater than 1mm, but just over a year later when the insurance company demanded a new survey there were thousands of pits up to 5.5mm deep which is bad news on 6mm steel. Their cause is still unexplained. We had the boat overplated by an extremely good company and are totally confident in its ability to outlast us. It now sits about 1.5" lower in the water (IIRC) which has improved its handling - but this meant we had to have the floors of our gas lockers (at the stern) raised to keep them above the waterline.

 

As we had recently had a new engine fitted and also a repaint and several other repairs, costing about £25k in total which we wanted to make use of, plus we love our boat, we didn't think twice about having the overplating done at a cost of about £7k. Overall though, it is sobering to contemplate that because of the difficulty in selling an overplated boat (even when the plating is of the highest quality) on a boat that was valued at £50k just 5 years ago we have since spent £32k to end up with a boat that is now valued at £46k.

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