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*CRT enforcement of 14-day rule post lockdown and Tier 3 areas*


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11 hours ago, Athy said:

What were these people doing?

NB 'Arrested' does not necessarily imply 'charged' or 'fined'. Esp if helping a celeb or pop star to celebrate a birthday . . .

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I've no idea Athy, but I can guess they are the same type who demonstrated bywalking en mass to demonstrate against wearing masks in shops.

The answer is to put them all in a warehouse, and leave them for four weeks to fester, those  that get the disease and need the NHS will be given a respirator, and a body bag.

They will all have to vive their benefit payments back to the taxpayer, if they don't accept one pety rule, they are not entitled to any benefits

Those that don't die will be tagged and sent home, 24 hour curfew until the rest of the Uk is vacinated.

 

Nice to see such liberal, thoughtful views being expressed on a boating forum where no-one necessarily has to depend on anyone else!

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2 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

NB 'Arrested' does not necessarily imply 'charged' or 'fined'. Esp if helping a celeb or pop star to celebrate a birthday . . .

I can find no record of a NB called "Arrested", the nearest being :

 

Ah!Rested Built in 1995 - Length : 3.1 metres ( 10 feet 2 inches ) - Beam : 1.4 metres ( 4 feet 7 inches )
Powered by an Outboard Petrol engine with a power of 2 HP. Registered with Environment Authority - Anglian Region number G160168 as an Unknown Cam Tariff Upto 5m 4hp Or Less.  ( Last updated on Saturday 16th July 2016 )

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13 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

CRTs head now revolving the full 360 degrees in less than an hour, from the Foxton locks stoppage:

 

 

 

It says more about the impenetrability of the ever-changing 'rules' - aka 'guidance'

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

I can find no record of a NB called "Arrested", the nearest being :

 

Ah!Rested Built in 1995 - Length : 3.1 metres ( 10 feet 2 inches ) - Beam : 1.4 metres ( 4 feet 7 inches )
Powered by an Outboard Petrol engine with a power of 2 HP. Registered with Environment Authority - Anglian Region number G160168 as an Unknown Cam Tariff Upto 5m 4hp Or Less.  ( Last updated on Saturday 16th July 2016 )

I thought that Nb was the abbreviation for narrowboat.

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As usual, CRT are making themselves look remote, uncaring and foolish. 

 

The guidance for Tier 3 says; "avoid travelling outside of your area, including for overnight stays other than where necessary".  This is not outside of your tier, but outside of your area.  Area is not defined, but in the circumstances, it makes sense to define it in a similar way to "place" from the 1995 Waterways Act.  This means that anyone in Tier 3, in order to comply with the continuous cruising guidelines, will have to breach the covid guidelines. 

 

What's more important to CRT?  Enforcing a poxy waterways act (which allows longer stays where it's reasonable), or keeping your customers safe from a deadly pandemic? 

 

Remember what the act says:

 

"the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances."

 

If it's not reasonable to stay put right now, then when the hell is it??

Edited by doratheexplorer
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8 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

It says more about the impenetrability of the ever-changing 'rules' - aka 'guidance'

I thought that Nb was the abbreviation for narrowboat.

But N.B. is the abbreviation for Note Bene

nota bene
 
N.B. An abbreviation for the Latin phrase nota bene, meaning “note well.” It is used to emphasize an important point.
 
 
 
Edit to add :
I note that the blog for the steam vessel Emily-Anne is prefixed with SNB (steam narrow boat ?).
Edited by Alan de Enfield
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9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

As usual, CRT are making themselves look remote, uncaring and foolish. 

 

The guidance for Tier 3 says; "avoid travelling outside of your area, including for overnight stays other than where necessary".  This is not outside of your tier, but outside of your area.  Area is not defined, but in the circumstances, it makes sense to define it in a similar way to "place" from the 1995 Waterways Act. 

 

I disagree.  I read the area as being the tier area you are in, not a CRT defined area.

 

What they are saying is if you are near Chorley in Lancashire (a tier 3 area) do not travel into Wigan (also a tier 3 area) or Blackburn with Darwen (also a tier 3 area) but keep cruising in the Lancashire area.

 

I think they are asking us to stay in the same area the tiers are defined as, which varies around the country, and not move into other areas even if they are in the same tier.

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6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I disagree.  I read the area as being the tier area you are in, not a CRT defined area.

 

What they are saying is if you are near Chorley in Lancashire (a tier 3 area) do not travel into Wigan (also a tier 3 area) or Blackburn with Darwen (also a tier 3 area) but keep cruising in the Lancashire area.

 

I think they are asking us to stay in the same area the tiers are defined as, which varies around the country, and not move into other areas even if they are in the same tier.

 

And, crossing the border into Wales is totally banned, illegal and expensive if you are noticed.

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9 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I disagree.  I read the area as being the tier area you are in, not a CRT defined area.

 

What they are saying is if you are near Chorley in Lancashire (a tier 3 area) do not travel into Wigan (also a tier 3 area) or Blackburn with Darwen (also a tier 3 area) but keep cruising in the Lancashire area.

 

I think they are asking us to stay in the same area the tiers are defined as, which varies around the country, and not move into other areas even if they are in the same tier.

You "think". Pity our lords and masters can't be bothered to define such an obvious thing.

 

I can't decide if CRT is a victim off, or party to, the conspiracy to make the rules so opaque and ever-changing that no-one can possibly obey them, thus transfering blame from  the government to the people for subsequent events.

 

MP.

 

 

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I’m don’t normally question our C&RT lords and masters but the sentence “Of course, we'll be asking boaters
to use common sense”, what an earth does this mean? I asked a friend and they said it was an old phrase that stopped being used many years ago ????

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Another problem I can see with this is how few people know where county boundaries are and when canals cross them? Often there isn't a sign (actually the only one I can recall is on the Staffs &Worcs). I had no idea until recently that a short bit of the Oxford canal at Aynho wharf is in Northants. And the Llangollen crosses into Wales again briefly at Bettisfield. County boundaries arent even that clear on OS maps, just a faint black dashed line.

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2 minutes ago, Dave123 said:

Another problem I can see with this is how few people know where county boundaries are and when canals cross them? Often there isn't a sign (actually the only one I can recall is on the Staffs &Worcs). I had no idea until recently that a short bit of the Oxford canal at Aynho wharf is in Northants. And the Llangollen crosses into Wales again briefly at Bettisfield. County boundaries arent even that clear on OS maps, just a faint black dashed line.

Not that it maters much but the border between Yorkshire and Lancashire is marked on the Leeds/Liverpool canal.

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52 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I disagree.  I read the area as being the tier area you are in, not a CRT defined area.

 

What they are saying is if you are near Chorley in Lancashire (a tier 3 area) do not travel into Wigan (also a tier 3 area) or Blackburn with Darwen (also a tier 3 area) but keep cruising in the Lancashire area.

 

I think they are asking us to stay in the same area the tiers are defined as, which varies around the country, and not move into other areas even if they are in the same tier.

No way.  They could have easily used the word tier.  They didn't.  They used the word area to minimise travelling.  Your interpretation is just bizarre because few people will know where their 'tier area' ends.  I'm in tier 3 right now.  The local authority in this area is Sandwell.  More widely I am in the West Midlands combined authority area.  I have no idea which of these is my 'tier area'.  And I have no need to know.  All I need to know is that I'm in tier 3, which means I don't travel unless it's for one of the prescribed reasons.  Following CRTs 14 day rule is definitely not one of those.

32 minutes ago, Dave123 said:

Another problem I can see with this is how few people know where county boundaries are and when canals cross them? Often there isn't a sign (actually the only one I can recall is on the Staffs &Worcs). I had no idea until recently that a short bit of the Oxford canal at Aynho wharf is in Northants. And the Llangollen crosses into Wales again briefly at Bettisfield. County boundaries arent even that clear on OS maps, just a faint black dashed line.

Which is another reason why this so called 'common sense' which CRT are expecting us to use, doesn't extend to themselves.  The common sense thing would be to suspend the 14 day rule for everyone within tier 3.  At this time of year, who even cares?  Maybe CRT are just worried about people demanding refunds for winter mooring permits, assuming anyone still bothers with them?

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1 hour ago, MoominPapa said:

You "think". Pity our lords and masters can't be bothered to define such an obvious thing.

 

I can't decide if CRT is a victim off, or party to, the conspiracy to make the rules so opaque and ever-changing that no-one can possibly obey them, thus transfering blame from  the government to the people for subsequent events.

 

I'd say victim of. 

 

CRT can't overrule the government, so have to interpret the guidance as best they can, and they seem to have been quite on the ball with updating us following government guidance.

 

There are occasionally crossed wires between their twitter comments and their website, but I think that's down to individuals making things up on twitter!

 

 

16 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

No way.  They could have easily used the word tier.  They didn't.  They used the word area to minimise travelling.  Your interpretation is just bizarre because few people will know where their 'tier area' ends.  I'm in tier 3 right now.  The local authority in this area is Sandwell.  More widely I am in the West Midlands combined authority area.  I have no idea which of these is my 'tier area'.  And I have no need to know.  All I need to know is that I'm in tier 3, which means I don't travel unless it's for one of the prescribed reasons.  Following CRTs 14 day rule is definitely not one of those.

 

I think you are confused about what a tier is.  You personally can't be in tier 3, only an area can.

 

Areas - as defined by the government, not by CRT - are placed into tiers.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/full-list-of-local-restriction-tiers-by-area

 

You are in Sandwell, which on the current list is in the "Birmingham, Dudley, Sandwell, Walsall and Wolverhampton" area. 

 

If I remember correctly this covers your entire preferred cruising area, so the guidance to stay in the area isn't affecting you at all.  What seems to be the problem?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I'd say victim of. 

 

CRT can't overrule the government, so have to interpret the guidance as best they can, and they seem to have been quite on the ball with updating us following government guidance.

 

There are occasionally crossed wires between their twitter comments and their website, but I think that's down to individuals making things up on twitter!

 

 

 

I think you are confused about what a tier is.  You personally can't be in tier 3, only an area can.

 

Areas - as defined by the government, not by CRT - are placed into tiers.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/full-list-of-local-restriction-tiers-by-area

 

You are in Sandwell, which on the current list is in the "Birmingham, Dudley, Sandwell, Walsall and Wolverhampton" area. 

 

If I remember correctly this covers your entire preferred cruising area, so the guidance to stay in the area isn't affecting you at all.  What seems to be the problem?

 

 

It is very confusing and so much is not defined so you don’t really know if you are doing wrong.  
 

I think if you look at the legislation you can say the you are in a tier, as based on where you live that tier applies to you irrespective of where you are.  A example being if you are in tier 2 and you travel to a tier 1 area, say Devon to Cornwall, then you as a tier 2 person have to stick to the tier 2 rules irrespective of now being in a tier 1 area.  His is hard for places like pub if they are expected to enforce this.

 

closer to home for me, we are only half a mile from tier 2 (Worcestershire), so will the pubs there be checking ID, Ai don’t know, certainly the pubs in Wales are currently doing that.
 

I have decided that I will go and check on the boat, as there seems to be nothing in the legislation that limits travelling at all, so at least I can’t get done for it.  I will need to go from Solihull to Warwickshire and back to Solihull, both in tier 3.  So if you say the guidance is about changing tiers, then I and not doing that.  However if you interpret it as local authority area, then I am going against the guidance.

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Area is not clearly defined in spite of the various interpretations suggested on here. Considering the number of barristers and solicitors in parliament and the lords it is pretty poor lawmaking.

It is also advice only so non enforcible.

 

 

 

Edited by PaulD
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9 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I'd say victim of. 

 

CRT can't overrule the government, so have to interpret the guidance as best they can, and they seem to have been quite on the ball with updating us following government guidance.

 

There are occasionally crossed wires between their twitter comments and their website, but I think that's down to individuals making things up on twitter!

 

 

 

I think you are confused about what a tier is.  You personally can't be in tier 3, only an area can.

 

Areas - as defined by the government, not by CRT - are placed into tiers.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/full-list-of-local-restriction-tiers-by-area

 

You are in Sandwell, which on the current list is in the "Birmingham, Dudley, Sandwell, Walsall and Wolverhampton" area. 

 

If I remember correctly this covers your entire preferred cruising area, so the guidance to stay in the area isn't affecting you at all.  What seems to be the problem?

 

 

It doesn't come close to my preferred cruising area.  Typically I cruise between Sharpness in the S.W., Naptonish in the S.E., Nantwichish in the N.W. and Burton in the N.E.  In a typical year I will, at some point go a bit further.  This year I made a foray to Chester (my first try at single-handing Beeston lock), and another to Whaley Bridge/ Bugsworth, although my cruising has been reduced in months this year, because I didn't go anywhere until June.  I tend to alternate with years heading vaguely north with years heading vaguely south.

 

Thanks for the link though, it's the first time I've seen that.  Not seen any previous reference to it by the government or anyone else.  It still doesn't change the fact that your interpretation is bizarre since there's no reliable way of telling when you cross into a new area.  The obvious interpretation is the one I gave.  The word 'area' in the guidance is deliberately kept vague because the encouragement is to not travel, but without enshrining it in law.  As is our government's way. 

 

But back to the point about the CRTY guidance.  Even if you're right, the guidance for cc'ers is highly likely to lead to boaters not complying with government guidance.  As I've already said, the common sense approach would be to suspend the 14 day rule.  In fact, I'd advocate suspending it for the whole network for the avoidance of doubt amongst boaters.

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I've not decided what to do now, I thought I'd move in the direction the boat is pointing, turn right, stop at next Lock, re-assess, but if I follow the Rules to the letter, I need to go to a winding hole, back track to the next place, which is disease Riven Retford, I'm not even considering that level of risk after spending the last year keeping away from high risk activities.

I've found a remote place, and I'm going to stay here 'till I am convinced my next place will be as safe.  

 I expect the CRT enforcement officer to use common sense, and btw I'm not being ironic

Edited by LadyG
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1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I've not decided what to do now, I thought I'd move in the direction the boat is pointing, turn right, stop at next Lock, re-assess, but if I follow the Rules to the letter, I need to go to a winding hole, back track to the next place, which is disease Riven Retford, I'm not even contemplating that.

I've found a remote place, and I'm going to stay here 'till I am convinced my next place will be as safe.  

 I expect the CRT enforcement officer to use comon sense, and btw I'm not being ironic

I'd do the same.  If CRT tried to move me on in the current circumstances, I'd love to see them actually take formal action.  I just cannot see CRT attempting to enforce the 14 day rule at the moment.  They're pretty hands off in winter on a normal year, so why would the try anything this year.  Then again, CRT never cease to amaze me with some of their decision making.

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4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I'd do the same.  If CRT tried to move me on in the current circumstances, I'd love to see them actually take formal action.  I just cannot see CRT attempting to enforce the 14 day rule at the moment.  They're pretty hands off in winter on a normal year, so why would the try anything this year.  Then again, CRT never cease to amaze me with some of their decision making.

I don't know the CRT well enough to comment, but it looks like a very old fashioned organisation, the kind where meetings are frequent and open ended, and anyone bringing up 'Any Other Business" is a rebel without a cause.

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50 minutes ago, PaulD said:

Area is not clearly defined in spite of the various interpretations suggested on here. Considering the number of barristers and solicitors in parliament and the lords it is pretty poor lawmaking.

It is also advice only so non enforcible.

As it's only advice, it doesn't matter that it's not defined, because it just doesn't matter. Anyway, barristers and solicitors love woolly laws, that's how they get rich.

The trick at the moment is to do one's best to stay alive and healthy until vaccinated, and that's all. Poncing about the canal in a tin box on one's own isn't going to hurt anyone, nor is staying out of everyone else's way. As I suspect most of CRT's staff are laid off, who's going to care what any of us do apart from us?

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29 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

As it's only advice, it doesn't matter that it's not defined, because it just doesn't matter. Anyway, barristers and solicitors love woolly laws, that's how they get rich.

The trick at the moment is to do one's best to stay alive and healthy until vaccinated, and that's all. Poncing about the canal in a tin box on one's own isn't going to hurt anyone, nor is staying out of everyone else's way. As I suspect most of CRT's staff are laid off, who's going to care what any of us do apart from us?

Very well put.

As they say in Yorkshire, "use tha nowse lad"

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I can find no record of a NB called "Arrested", the nearest being :

 

Ah!Rested Built in 1995 - Length : 3.1 metres ( 10 feet 2 inches ) - Beam : 1.4 metres ( 4 feet 7 inches )
Powered by an Outboard Petrol engine with a power of 2 HP. Registered with Environment Authority - Anglian Region number G160168 as an Unknown Cam Tariff Upto 5m 4hp Or Less.  ( Last updated on Saturday 16th July 2016 )

 

4 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

 

I thought that Nb was the abbreviation for narrowboat.

Ah!Rested is a particularly narrow narrowboat.

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