Sparks from exhaust and ticking noise from BMC 1.5 engine

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

It's interesting about the oil feed. 

 

My engines seem to be mid 80s with not a lot of hours (less than 2000 according to the clocks). Units could be older than the clocks and only one of them has tappet problems.  

 

I've so far had three tappet screws out on the one engine which were all nackered. I mean completely nackered. Showing signs the ball heads not being adequately hardened. 

 

Ok so it could be oil feed but it could also just be soft tappet screws. 

 

One of the screws:

It will take someone with a bigger brain than mine (good luck with that) to explain a reason for this other than poor hardening in the original part. 

 

ETA bearing in mind the correct part is this item and I definitely don't think the engines have had any hard work.

 

Apart from getting the pedestal in the wrong place when BMC rocker bearings or the shaft under them wear it can get so bad that the oil flow leaks out of the bearings and can't get down the drilling in the rocker so it can't drip onto the push rod cup.

I have also known the drilling down the rocker block up. The later pressed & fabricated sheet metal ones seem worse in this respect (if they were ever fitted to the diesels)

 

Have you run it with the cover off so you can see what is going on? If you do have oil dripping into the pushrod cup then lack of hardening is all it can be.

[magnetman]

12 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Apart from getting the pedestal in the wrong place when BMC rocker bearings or the shaft under them wear it can get so bad that the oil flow leaks out of the bearings and can't get down the drilling in the rocker so it can't drip onto the push rod cup.

I have also known the drilling down the rocker block up. The later pressed & fabricated sheet metal ones seem worse in this respect (if they were ever fitted to the diesels)

 

Have you run it with the cover off so you can see what is going on? If you do have oil dripping into the pushrod cup then lack of hardening is all it can be.

To be honest the oil feed isn't very good on the rockers. Probably needs looking at. 

 

Would poor oiling knock out the ball ends on the tappet screws? I suppose it could be that rather than / and possibly a hardening problem. 

 

I'll have a look at the head nuts see if they have been disturbed ie if head gasket has been replaced / possibly on backwards as discussed above. 

 

Sorry to the OP for hijacking this thread but it seems possible we have similar issues. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

To be honest the oil feed isn't very good on the rockers. Probably needs looking at. 

 

Would poor oiling knock out the ball ends on the tappet screws? I suppose it could be that rather than / and possibly a hardening problem. 

 

I'll have a look at the head nuts see if they have been disturbed ie if head gasket has been replaced / possibly on backwards as discussed above. 

 

Sorry to the OP for hijacking this thread but it seems possible we have similar issues. 

 

 

If the gasket is on incorrectly then you will have no oil to the rockers so if there is some oil it won't be that.

 

Run the engine with the cover off and look at how much oil leaks from between the rocker and shaft, if its trickling then its too much.

 

Yes, no lubrication will wear the cups, screws or both. After all they push at half engine speed with a high loading because they need to open the valves PDQ. However i would expect squeaks.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[Tracy D'arth]

Dry tappet screws will squeak. Slightly oil misted ones will not. poorly hardened parts will wear no matter what oil they get, they are very heavily loaded when running.

 

The wear in the cups and ball ends will show what the problem is.

If the cups in the ends of the pushrods are OK it is quite probable that the tappet screws are non original parts of poor manufacture. This has been discussed elsewhere, there appears to be a supplier of junk screws, thought to originate in China and sold on eBay.

[bizzard]

If you think you have cheap foreign soft tappet screws they can be re- case hardened by puting them on your bbq's charcoal and heating to red. But don't get em mixed up with yer burgers and sausages or they'll bust yer teath. When heated to red the steels pores open up and allow the carbon to soak in.

[magnetman]

The cups look ok. There is sometimes some squeaking yes. 

 

Need to haul them all out and replace. 

 

The rocker arm shows signs of having been removed at some stage. 

 

I suspect someone did a top end overhaul on that engine and put in junk tappet screws. The ones I have bought are from the MGB Hive website which hopefully means they are good ones. 

I already replaced one quite a while ago but I think the others probably do need doing as well. 

 

At least an inspection. Off to the engine room now. 

 

[ditchcrawler]

57 minutes ago, bizzard said:

If you think you have cheap foreign soft tappet screws they can be re- case hardened by puting them on your bbq's charcoal and heating to red. But don't get em mixed up with yer burgers and sausages or they'll bust yer teath. When heated to red the steels pores open up and allow the carbon to soak in.

That's not quite how I did it at college but I guess the end result is the same, cherry red and in carbon.

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That's not quite how I did it at college but I guess the end result is the same, cherry red and in carbon.

Casenite?

[bizzard]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Casenite?

That's the stuff.

[Mikepunn]

Hi all, I removed the head this morning after compression testing to find the gasket has been fitted correctly so the oilways to the rockers hasn't been obstructed. I decided to turn it over to see if any oil came up but nothing at all, from past expeariance working on engines when removing the head I always had a blob of oil left on the gasket after removal from back flow from the rockers but this one seemed dry.

 

The results from the compression test were equal apart from the far right that was down by 30psi (thermostat side) so believe the issue to be the valves on that side.

 

All the tappet screws are fine, seem original to me with little to no wear so I dont think that is the issue in this case.

Is there anyway to test the oil pump without removal? I've been reading up about some sort of oil pressure relief valve. Does anyone know the location of said valve and would that stop oil flow to the cylinder head?

 

The cylinders seem to be in good condition, what I can see of them but seems like there could have been an issue at some point with Tue big end bearings as the cylinder with the low compression seems slightly oval to me (could just he my eyes playing tricks on me) 

 

Any helpful advice would be appreciated at this point because I am at a loss to the oil pressure problem. 

 

 

[bizzard]

3 minutes ago, Mikepunn said:

Hi all, I removed the head this morning after compression testing to find the gasket has been fitted correctly so the oilways to the rockers hasn't been obstructed. I decided to turn it over to see if any oil came up but nothing at all, from past expeariance working on engines when removing the head I always had a blob of oil left on the gasket after removal from back flow from the rockers but this one seemed dry.

 

The results from the compression test were equal apart from the far right that was down by 30psi (thermostat side) so believe the issue to be the valves on that side.

 

All the tappet screws are fine, seem original to me with little to no wear so I dont think that is the issue in this case.

Is there anyway to test the oil pump without removal? I've been reading up about some sort of oil pressure relief valve. Does anyone know the location of said valve and would that stop oil flow to the cylinder head?

 

The cylinders seem to be in good condition, what I can see of them but seems like there could have been an issue at some point with Tue big end bearings as the cylinder with the low compression seems slightly oval to me (could just he my eyes playing tricks on me) 

 

Any helpful advice would be appreciated at this point because I am at a loss to the oil pressure problem. 

 

 

You could remove the oil pressure switch and turn the engine over to see if oil pumps out of there as a rough guide.  Yes a stuck open relief valve will cause a considerable pressure loss, and quite common on those engines and other BMC engines. The relief valve is behind a large domed nut near the oil filter. It has a spring and the valve behind. Remove nut and spring. To remove the valve try turning the engine on the starter and pressure might blow it out, if not I have used a thick wooden dowel rod whittled down to tap into the hollow valve to pull it out. The wooden handle of a valve grinding tool is good for that.

[Mikepunn]

14 minutes ago, bizzard said:

You could remove the oil pressure switch and turn the engine over to see if oil pumps out of there as a rough guide.  Yes a stuck open relief valve will cause a considerable pressure loss, and quite common on those engines and other BMC engines. The relief valve is behind a large domed nut near the oil filter. It has a spring and the valve behind. Remove nut and spring. To remove the valve try turning the engine on the starter and pressure might blow it out, if not I have used a thick wooden dowel rod whittled down to tap into the hollow valve to pull it out. The wooden handle of a valve grinding tool is good for that.

Silly question but the engine seemed very loud to me. Since purchasing the boat I havnt really moved much (covid 19) so the engine hasn't been run for a long period of time. Is it possible to fit the oil pump incorrectly on this engine or is fitment fool proof ? Cheers 

 

Also my engine doesn't have an oil pressure switch just a lot of bolts so I'm at a loss as to the location

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Mikepunn
Missed something

[BWM]

I keep having a vision of the old Flash Gordon space ship when i read the title.

[Tracy D'arth]

Download the free manual from here     http://the-norfolk-broads.co.uk/downloads/bmc1500L-diesel-workshop-manual.pdf

 

You will need it.

If you can see bore ovality then either you have outstanding eyesight or the bore is massively oval, more than you could cope with.

[Mikepunn]

A little update, I removed the oil filter to turn the engine over to check for oil flow and found it to be completely dry, no oil at all in the filter. 

 

I called the bloke who I purchased the boat off and he seems to not want to know and claims to be busy at the moment (charming chap) but he did mention he only started it up after rebuilding the engine for 2 minutes but let slip that the oil pump was a pig to fit and seemed stiff after installation initially when turning over by hand.

 

The engine hasn't been rebuilt at all its just been overhauled as the pistons and valves seem original to me and rebuild implies everything is new in the engine.

 

Seems like it's a sump off job to me unless anyone can think of anything else that may be causing this issue. 

 

Thanks for all your suggestions so far 

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Sump off I'm afraid of what you will find. Your engine sounds like a coat of paint recon. It is surprising that it ran as long as it did. Oil pump runs off the cam via skew gears as does the injection pump. There is a jack shaft with slotted shaft drive to the pump spindle, they have been known to break the ends off.

 

If it is totally knackered, consider a new Canaline engine, with mounting spacers it is a straight swap. A better bet than an eBay second hand engine which may turn out to be an RCR / Key Diesels horror story. See the other posts on here as regards these "engines".

 

Be careful if you invert the engine with the head off, the cam followers will all fall out into the side chests and it is important that they run in the existing order on the cam to prevent rapid wear.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Tracy D'arth
added more text

[Chewbacka]

If the filter is dry and oil free, then it must either be the oil pump or there is no feed to the pump, maybe a blocked or missing suction pipe?

[bizzard]

The stiffness could be caused by renewing the piston rings without scraping the solid carbon from out of the ring grooves.

[Mikepunn]

Hi all update time, I managed to get the sump off in situ, a very tight squeeze but I managed it (Good job I'm slim) and as I was removing the oil pump I removed the 2 x 11mm nuts and then went to undo the 14mm bolts but to my surprise (well not really) they was extremely loose so loosened and removed pump by hand. I can not even describe the amount of sludged oil covered my hand. Not impressed with the previous owners attempt at anything really. And Tracy I wish he had painted it but even that I'm afraid he failed to do 

 

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Sump off I'm afraid of what you will find. Your engine sounds like a coat of paint recon. 

[Mikepunn]

I'm just worried now as to what the chuff sound from the inlet could be now, I've inspected the valves and all sit correctly. 

 

I'm lucky the bearings seem fine, no play in the pistons when rotating with my hand pushing down as the piston reaches the top of its travel and starts to move down.

 

Hopefully it all comes into place when refitting with no issues but I will be removing each valve and investigating with a fine tooth comb .

 

 

Would it be worth removing the piston with the low compression to see if there is any damage to the rings in that cylinder ?

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Mikepunn
Question

[Chewbacka]

2 minutes ago, Mikepunn said:

I'm just worried now as to what the chuff sound from the inlet could be now, I've inspected the valves and all sit correctly. 

 

I'm lucky the bearings seem fine, no play in the pistons when rotating with my hand pushing down as the piston reaches the top of its travel and starts to move down.

 

Hopefully it all comes into place when refitting with no issues but I will be removing each valve and investigating with a fine tooth comb 

 

 

Bottom of the engine (I think this is correct) is partly lubricated by oil splash so big ends, crank etc hopefully survived brief running, but the head will have run dry and most at risk of damage.  Things like rocker arms, valve guides, etc

[Mikepunn]

Also the engine started smoking before the problems started, as there was no oil supply to the cylinders I assume the smoke to be coming from poor quality injectors, they don't seem original to me, they don't appear to be the adjustable ones and seem to be sealed units. I think someone may have mentioned earlier on about this and the atomisation washers but looking at the cylinder head even if they was to blow through they would never reach the cylinders and get stuck in the spray gaps (if you know what I mean) There is an old set I found in the engine room, would it be worth swapping back to the originals and seeing what happens? There may be a possibility the previous owner was chasing an old problem and mistakenly replaced the injectors when there was nothing wrong 

7 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Bottom of the engine (I think this is correct) is partly lubricated by oil splash so big ends, crank etc hopefully survived brief running, but the head will have run dry and most at risk of damage.  Things like rocker arms, valve guides, etc

OK thanks, I'll just put it back together again and see what happens. I font see the point in a new head gasket as I may have to remove the head again 

[Tracy D'arth]

14 minutes ago, Mikepunn said:

I'm just worried now as to what the chuff sound from the inlet could be now, I've inspected the valves and all sit correctly. 

 

I'm lucky the bearings seem fine, no play in the pistons when rotating with my hand pushing down as the piston reaches the top of its travel and starts to move down.

 

Hopefully it all comes into place when refitting with no issues but I will be removing each valve and investigating with a fine tooth comb .

 

 

Would it be worth removing the piston with the low compression to see if there is any damage to the rings in that cylinder ?

 

 

Only if you have a ring compressor or hose clip to get it back in without breaking rings. Pouring  thin oil into the cylinder may give you some idea on the state of the rings  but it will still be a guess.

 

Is the oil pump drive still working? Check the skew gears at the top and the slotted drive on the jack shaft and pump spindle.

 

I would check the injector heat shields and renew all the copper washers too, shields are known to break up but the bits stay in the head combustion pocket, until you run it then they drop into the pistons!

 

Its possible that an inlet valve seized  and the piston hit it and bent it so it won't be sealing properly. If that is on the cylinder with lower compression then chances are that the rings are good and its a valve leaking.

Be very certain that the injectors are BMC ones, it is possible to fit Perkins injectors but they are longer and will break out the heat shields on the head

[Tony Brooks]

44 minutes ago, Mikepunn said:

Also the engine started smoking before the problems started, as there was no oil supply to the cylinders I assume the smoke to be coming from poor quality injectors, they don't seem original to me, they don't appear to be the adjustable ones and seem to be sealed units. I think someone may have mentioned earlier on about this and the atomisation washers but looking at the cylinder head even if they was to blow through they would never reach the cylinders and get stuck in the spray gaps (if you know what I mean) There is an old set I found in the engine room, would it be worth swapping back to the originals and seeing what happens? There may be a possibility the previous owner was chasing an old problem and mistakenly replaced the injectors when there was nothing wrong 

OK thanks, I'll just put it back together again and see what happens. I font see the point in a new head gasket as I may have to remove the head again 

 

The original intectors had a domed cap and lock nut on the adjuster screw but later ones had a slightly domed long hexagon cap and no lock washer. they may look to be non-adjustable but the  hexagon cap just unscrews to reveal the adjustment.

 

In fact I think both types have the same body.

 

Of far more importance is that the nozzles are the correct length and are in fact pintaux nozzles and not pintle ones that look very similar. How about posting a photo of an old and new injector placed "head to toe" with the end of one nozzle against the nozzle holder on the other so we can compare.

[Tracy D'arth]

Read and look at this carefully

 

https://www.mech4study.com/2017/03/types-of-nozzle-in-ic-engine.html

 

You should have pinteaux nozzles in a BMC 1.5D, no other.