Sparks from exhaust and ticking noise from BMC 1.5 engine

[Tracy D'arth]

8 hours ago, Mikepunn said:

Hi tony, I thought the compressions to be too low, the rings have definitely been overhauled so maybe it is just a case of bedding them into the cylinder walls. At the rate the boat moves and the fact the engine is never really put through its paces I worry it will take a few years.

 

One thing I noticed is the engine block is gold and the fuel injection pump is blue so assume a second hand pump has been installed at some point. Looking at it carefully it doesn't look like its been messed with recently and the scribe marks do line up.

 

I will get my son to download and print the manual for me as soon as possible as computers and phones are not my strong point.

 

The 1st thing I'm going to try tomorrow is a fuel system cleaner directly into the fuel filter and give it a good high dose, unless anyone can think of a reason not to? There doesn't appear to be a return on the fuel system back to the tank, it terminates at the big fuel filter. If that fails i will try the pump thing, move it around by 1degree (hit and miss) and see if it gets any better.

 

Oh another thing tony, is there an easy way of inspecting the skew gears or is it a case of stripping the engine down to look? At the moment I'm kind of worried about removing the fuel injection pump because apparently the tool to realign the pump doesn't seem to be available any more.

 

 

The sparks I believe to be the caked on crap from inside the exhaust igniting when the engines warmed up as it did it again today, in fact it didn't stop for some 15 minutes and a few passers by stopped to enjoy the show and others looked to be diving for cover.

 

To be honest I was shocked to find no damage to the cylinder bores or the pistons. I was expecting everything to be a right mess with bits of rings everywhere after the chuff noise started but surprisingly it looks fine, even the cross hatching is visible on the cylinder walls.

 

 

If it starts promptly and the bores still have honing marks it sounds OK, just run it hard, diesels love working hard.

 

I have had engines with silencers chucking clinkers out and it is usually due to injector dribble. Once you get that set of real BMC injectors reset it should diminish with use.

A new set of injector washers will be required when you refit them.

[Tony Brooks]

If there is no return all the way to the tank you are asking for air locking and the engine stopping. The return on a 1.5 usually runs from injector leak off to the engine fuel filter top and from there back to the tank. There is a 0.5mm hole in the banjo bolt on the filter top specifically for leaking fuel and any air building up in the filter back to the tank.

 

If you take the pump off there is nothing that can alter the timing as long as you realign the scribe mark to the pointer when refitting. The tool is necessary to take the backlash out of the pump drive after work that could affect it like new timing chain etc. so you can set the pointer. Once done then until the camshaft drive or pump drive wears the pointer shoudl be correct. The pump drive has a master spline so as long as you don't pull the skew gear shaft so you can put it back in the wrong position tooth wise it has to go back correctly apart from lining up the scribe line.

 

Many mechanics nowadays get the engine running and twist the pump in the mounting slots until it sounds right and delivers sufficient power without excess smoke. That may be your only option if you suspect pump timing. Not too sure how that is done with six steel pipes connected to it though.

 

With the engine in situ there is no easy way to view the skew gear. Maybe remove the pump and jamb something into the female drive splines and check the back lash. There will be a small amount if all is well but not much. Never done it myself so can't say how much.

 

Maybe worth trying twisting the pump a little once you get overhauled injectors into it if they don't cure the smoke etc.

 

From a previous post you made re injectors - They are not Bosch injectors as such, all the injection equipment is CAV but shenanigans around German company patents related to the wars means CAV may well have been manufacturing to Bosch designs but the pump has to be pure CAV.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[Tracy D'arth]

The colour of smoke once the engine is well warmed up may guide you on the pump timing.

White smoke is unburnt fuel due to injection being too late, retarded.  Not to be confused with steam from a cold engine, internal water leak, or fresh water cooling overheating.

Black smoke off load is too far advanced.

Black smoke under heavy load, difficult to achieve for long on a canal boat, is normal as it is due to overloading of the engine holding the revs down whilst the injection is at maximum. This will also occur when opening the throttle suddenly.

 

Most BMCs of this vintage will emit some light dark smoke when idling.

[Mikepunn]

Hi all, got back to the boat today after spending some time looking after my father. I think I have to finally admit that the engine is a lemon, to be honest I don't think I want to spend any more on it and might next month purchase a new engine.

 

The engines still smoking and misfiring with a strong smell of diesel. Black smoke when under load. I was going to attempt to play with the fuel pump but looking at the bottom bolt position I will have to manufacture a spanner to get at it and being honest I just can't really be bothered.

 

I just remembered something that happened to me in my Mondeo st tdci, I stupidly drove the car through a flooded ford, the water was higher then usual but as I was late to an important meeting I decided to risk it and drive through. As I got to the opposite side the engine stopped (flooding the boot) i believe the car hydrolocked (water in intake) I decided to pull the glow plugs at the side of the road and turn it over blasting the water from the cylinders, reassembled and started.

 

The car started fine so off I went, felt low on power while blasting the throttle. I then noticed clouds of white smoke from the exhaust while under throttle. Thinking I had damaged the injectors I swapped and coded another set I had but still the same. I didn't bother investigating further as I needed a car for work so I purchased another.

 

I believe that the water had bent a couple of conrods and the piston was not making a full stroke thus the incomplete combustion = white/grey smoke smelling of diesel. 

 

Anyway ill get to the point.

I did notice when I removed the head on the BMC that there was a lot of black oily residue on the cylinder wall (that I wiped off),  right where the compression ring finished its stroke. What im thinking is could the previous owner have used to much assembly lube or something along those lines and hydrolocked the engine causing the con-rods to bend ? Or could it possibly be the fuel pump.

 

I'm hoping someone tries to convince me to try and repair it but if you all think I'm wasting my time I'll drop something else in.

 

I just want to say a big thank you to everyone and its been great knowing there's people out there that will spend their own time advising strangers. Keep up the good work, maybe one day I can contribute something.

 

Ps. I forgot to say that a diesel mechanic friend of mine up in kendal tested the injectors and said that they are fine. I don't know what he did to test them, never asked.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Mikepunn

[Tony Brooks]

thanks for the feedback.

 

Do you have a DTI you could mount on the  block face to compare the face to piston crown distance on each cylinder at TDC. I can't see hydro-locking would bend all the con-rods equally so it might give a clue.

[Chewbacka]

20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

thanks for the feedback.

 

Do you have a DTI you could mount on the  block face to compare the face to piston crown distance on each cylinder at TDC. I can't see hydro-locking would bend all the con-rods equally so it might give a clue.

Wouldn’t a compression tester be easer as bent rods would reduce the compression?

 

[Tony Brooks]

58 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Wouldn’t a compression tester be easer as bent rods would reduce the compression?

 

He has already posted the compressions and in my view they are low and one lower than the rest but as far as i can gather he thinks they will do.

[Mad Harold]

I think you have already contributed to the forum with your tale of your engine.

If you really think your engine has handed in it's dinner pail,then you have little choice except replace it.

Perhaps a shiny new Beta would fit the bill.

It'll cost of course,but a small consolation is that it will enhance the value of your boat.

Happy Christmas.

[Tracy D'arth]

19 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

I think you have already contributed to the forum with your tale of your engine.

If you really think your engine has handed in it's dinner pail,then you have little choice except replace it.

Perhaps a shiny new Beta would fit the bill.

It'll cost of course,but a small consolation is that it will enhance the value of your boat.

Happy Christmas.

A Canaline will drop right in with a bit of spacer under the mounts, everything is in the same place as on a 15D BMC.

[David Mack]

On 05/12/2020 at 02:40, Mikepunn said:

 

 

The engine is direct water cooled, it takes the water from the canal and dumps it back into the canal,

Just a word of warning. 

I had a BMC 1.5 with direct cooling. It all worked fine, but one of the thin pressed steel core plugs rusted through (which wouldn't have happened with closed circuit cooling). A small amount of water running into the bilge would not have been a problem if the jet of water from the core plug had not impinged directly on the dipstick. Result was that some of the water ran down the dipstick into the sump and the oil turned to mayonnaise.

Replacing the core plug turned out to be very easy. But it took at least 2 oil changes to get rid of the mayonnaise.

[Alan de Enfield]

Don't know if this is of any use ?

 

BMC 1500 Diesel Engine Dismantled/Painted | in Norwich, Norfolk | Gumtree

 

£150 - just a couple of parts could cost that.

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Don't know if this is of any use ?

 

BMC 1500 Diesel Engine Dismantled/Painted | in Norwich, Norfolk | Gumtree

 

£150 - just a couple of parts could cost that.

Cam followers and push rods mixed up (bad practice) and no injectors as far as I can see. No shot of the top of the bores so wonder about the ridge and if its deliberate. Let the buyer beware - very, very much beware.

 

 

[Mikepunn]

On 17/12/2020 at 20:15, David Mack said:

Just a word of warning. 

I had a BMC 1.5 with direct cooling. It all worked fine, but one of the thin pressed steel core plugs rusted through (which wouldn't have happened with closed circuit cooling). A small amount of water running into the bilge would not have been a problem if the jet of water from the core plug had not impinged directly on the dipstick. Result was that some of the water ran down the dipstick into the sump and the oil turned to mayonnaise.

Replacing the core plug turned out to be very easy. But it took at least 2 oil changes to get rid of the mayonnaise.

He he funny that is, I looked at mine yesterday because i noticed water dripping when i was checked the oil and the exact same one was found to be leaking on mine, it was only a slight pin hole but while i was cleaning the thing for a closer look i managed to poke a larger hole (for a temporary fix i've used epoxy resin) It looks like its flimsy copper or brass on my one though, luckily it doesn't seem to have contaminated the oil. What a coincidence hey 

 

On 17/12/2020 at 13:36, Tony Brooks said:

thanks for the feedback.

 

Do you have a DTI you could mount on the  block face to compare the face to piston crown distance on each cylinder at TDC. I can't see hydro-locking would bend all the con-rods equally so it might give a clue.

 

Hi tony, no I don't have a DTI gauge, it's a very good idea mind you, it saves removing the sump, oil pump and rods. Ill definitely be investing in one.

 

The only bit I have avoided up till now is touching the fuel pump.

 

I noticed that the fuel pump that's fitted to my engine has no washers behind the nuts, it looks like the nuts have been done up so tight they have damaged the metal. I would have thought washers are required to stop the pump from moving or damaging the pump, giving the nuts more surface area to grab.

I'll take a picture later today if I can get to the boat and upload it.

 

Is it just the injection pump that's adjustable or is it possible to move the backing plate thing with the arrow on as well ? It looks like it would come off as two bits and was just wondering if the plate is designed the same as the pump.

I only ask this as the line matches up perfectly to the arrow.

 

How accurate would the injection pump timing remain if say a 30 year old timing chain (possibly stretched) was replaced with a new one ? Would the pump have to be adjusted as well ? I'm just blowing brain cells thinking so much about it I think.

 

On 17/12/2020 at 15:47, Tracy D'arth said:

A Canaline will drop right in with a bit of spacer under the mounts, everything is in the same place as on a 15D BMC.

Hi Tracy, I've had a look at the engine, its a canaline 38 I think. Looks the part but at £5500 I think I'll have to put my tools to the test and sort the one out that's already fitted. I'd consider it if they would come and fit it as well.

 

Maybe I could add it to my list to Santa clause, never know I might get lucky.?

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Don't know if this is of any use ?

 

BMC 1500 Diesel Engine Dismantled/Painted | in Norwich, Norfolk | Gumtree

 

£150 - just a couple of parts could cost that

 

Hi Alan, thanks for that. I think I'll call later today about the engine, I could over Christmas take it to my fathers house and rebuild it in his garage, would give me something to do.

 

As tony said its a shame you can't see the cylinders. I think I watched a YouTube video of a bloke stripping this engine and was going to rebuild it himself, I think it was "taking a look inside a BMC 1.5" I believe he was given the engine for free. The engine was very low on compression I think, not surprised looking at the pistons and rings (they look stuck)

 

Again thanks everyone 

[Tony Brooks]

No DTI then clean the piston crowns and use a straight edge and feelers. The 1.5 does not normally have liners so there should be no liner protrusion.

 

Washers on injector pump - yes there should be flat and spring washers under the nuts but its not that unusual to find they have been dropped over the years. Same goes for the lift pump.

 

The large triangular "plate" the pump mounts against. I can't remember any locating dowels or dowel studs but the three studs go right through it into the block so in reality it can't move.

 

The degree of slack in the WHOLE timing line  (chain & skew gears) does vary over time and that is why the special tool was used to set the pointer by taking the backlash out of the driveline. As you don't have one all you can do is get it running and adjust the pump by ear. Just don't alter the pointer until you are sure you have got it running as well as you can. That way you can always set the pump back to the pointer. I would point out that I think you did say that you have checked the timing chain, tensioner & skew gears.

 

Edited to add: Using ether a DTI or straight edge and feelers you should work out how to deal with the ineffective crank angle to get true TDC. I think you have the gearbox in place so I think I would mark the front pulley to show where the piston stops moving and the starts moving again and set it half way between the two marks to get as near as dam it TDC..

Edited December 19, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[Mikepunn]

Hi all, well had some drama with the boat again. I decided to take it on a full throttle run down to Wolverhampton to see if it would sort itself out on sunday. I got just past caggies yard and could smell diesel from the engine room, not strong so had a look, could see nothing so carried on then all of a sudden it lost power.

 

I went and checked the engine and the high pressure pipe from the injector at the alternator side had popped off so I took the nut off to find the olive inside.

 

I noticed that the nuts cracked and looks like its been like this for some time.

 

 

Could this be causing the smoking issue? a crack in that nut would cause the injector to dribble and not spray, I believe it might not be the only one that's cracked but I'm away from the boat at the moment. Also could it have been the cause of the low compression on the one cylinder due to the diesel washing the oil from the cylinder ?

 

Does anyone know where I can purchase the nuts and olives ? I believe the thread size is 12mm and the olives are 6mm 

 

Cheers mike 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Mikepunn
Spelling mistake

[Tony Brooks]

Olives on those pipes are not typical. The "olive" is usually a form of "flare" made out of an don the end of the pipe.Remember you get many pressurised pulses of around 2000 psi per minute that are trying to push the pipe out of the olive.

 

My advice is to take the pipes to your local fuel injection specialist and have new ones made up. Unless you have suitable thick wall steel pipe bending tools it may be better to see if they can bend them for you. Otherwise I fear you may have to buy from ASAP or Calcutt.

[ditchcrawler]

30 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Olives on those pipes are not typical. The "olive" is usually a form of "flare" made out of an don the end of the pipe.Remember you get many pressurised pulses of around 2000 psi per minute that are trying to push the pipe out of the olive.

 

My advice is to take the pipes to your local fuel injection specialist and have new ones made up. Unless you have suitable thick wall steel pipe bending tools it may be better to see if they can bend them for you. Otherwise I fear you may have to buy from ASAP or Calcutt.

£20 a piece

 https://calcuttboatsshop.com/epages/c3a6cb0f-3e0f-4132-9636-974f7502e04d.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/c3a6cb0f-3e0f-4132-9636-974f7502e04d/Products/A3JAM2623

[Man 'o Kent]

I would not expect on an engine of that age that the threads would be metric. I owned a BMC car of about that vintage and all the threads, as far as I remember, were of the American Unified thread form, (60 degree flank angle), with A/F sized hexagon spanner sizes. The caveat here is that the injector pump and associated components were "bought in" parts and not of "in house" manufacture so it is essential to make sure what you are dealing with, Unified, Imperial or Metric. The O/D of a thread is a good guide but cannot be entirely relied on, thread forms can be modified for manufacturing convenience and wear, age and mistreatment can all have an effect. Often more reliable is the pitch of the thread at issue although even here  previous abuse can muddy the water.

 

As Tony Brooks says these pipes normally have formed ends which require the use of special forming tools. This means that the nuts are made captive on the pipe. Were it me and despite the  cost I'd be seeing if I could not buy a new set of ready made pipes for this engine or if that is not possible locate somewhere that can make up a new set using the existing pipes as a pattern.

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Injector pipes with olives on the ends is another bodge job on this engine.

[David Mack]

A few years back one of the high pressure injection pipes on Fulbourne's 1930s National engine failed - the pipe fractured right across just above the injector nut. We were in Berkhamstead at the time. Asked around a couple of local garages and someone directed us to Diesel Fuel Injection Services of Watford. Phoned him up. Yes he could fix it the same day. Got the train to Watford Junction and bus to near his workshop and handed him the broken pipe. He was just about to go for lunch, so asked me to come back in a couple of hours.

The Ebury Way footpath (ex railway line) runs past his premises, so I walked along the line to the canal, then along the towpath to Batchworth, had a cup of tea and returned. When I got back, not only had he made up a new pipe, bent to the same shape as the original, but he had formed a new flare on the end of the original pipe so we had a spare, albeit 1/4 inch shorter, which apparently affects the timing. Great service and reasonably priced!

[Tony Brooks]

Re the "olives". Some pipes have a loose collar on the pipe between the nut and "olive", I don't recall seeing them on 1.5s but if yours do its because the nuts do not have a tapered hole to push on the "olive".

 

If you do manage to find an olive for the pipe I think it would need silver soldering in place. I would not rely upon compression and friction onto the steel pipe.

 

 

[jacko264]

Any updates I’m curious on this one