Sparks from exhaust and ticking noise from BMC 1.5 engine

[Mikepunn]

Hi all, new here. I recently purchased a boat with a 1.5 bmc. Apparently it had just been rebuilt. I bought the revs up as the boat was smoking and noticed a lot of sparks coming from the exhaust then all of a sudden a ticking noise from the engine like an exhaust manifold bolt had broken. 

I cut the engine straight away and checked the exhaust bolts and all seemed fine so lifted the oil filler cap and noticed there was little to no oil. I started the engine again and at low revs the exhaust was still sparking and checked the oil cap and there was no oil flow to the rocker.

Has the oil pump failed and is the engine now destroyed ? I'd like to ask your opinions as I'd rather buy a new engine then have a rebuild done but if its something simple it might be worth repairing as I've only just forked out a small fortune for the boat.

Why would sparks come from the exhaust ? Could it be the rings are causing this issue running against the cylinder walls without lubrication. Appreciate any help I can get.

Cheers mike 

[Tracy D'arth]

What does a broken manifold bolt sound like?

Is there oil in the sump?

 

Sounds bad, like there is a foreign body in a cylinder. Could be an injector heat shield broken up. If its broken ring/s the bore/s and piston/s will be a mess.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Tracy D'arth

[Tony Brooks]

Sounds horrible to me. Definitely check the oil level in the sump.

 

Would a head gasket upside down and back to font actually fit? If so it may well block the rocker oil feed.

 

Have known the wrong injectors fitted to a 1.5 that pushed the bottom of the heat shield out.

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Sounds horrible to me. Definitely check the oil level in the sump.

 

Would a head gasket upside down and back to font actually fit? If so it may well block the rocker oil feed.

 

Have known the wrong injectors fitted to a 1.5 that pushed the bottom of the heat shield out.

Don't think the gasket will go on wrong.

Fitting Perkins injectors will do as you say Tony. Unfortunately they look very similar to the unskilled,

[Bee]

Had something like that on a Fiat Daily diesel, broken ring.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mikepunn said:

Apparently it had just been rebuilt.

By a reputable company, or a DIYer ?

 

Is there any warranty from the seller, or the 'engine rebuilder' ?

 

Did you check the oil before starting ?

[Mikepunn]

15 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

What does a broken manifold bolt sound like?

Is there oil in the sump?

 

Sounds bad, like there is a foreign body in a cylinder. Could be an injector heat shield broken up. If its broken ring/s the bore/s and piston/s will be a mess.

Hi Tracy, it sounds like a lose injector chuff sound, after further investigation I've found the noise to be coming from the air intake possibly an inlet valve sticking open or worse.

The sump has plenty of oil in it so no problems there. The engine does not have an oil pressure gauge either so I'm unable to tell if there's an issue with oil pressure.

15 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Sounds horrible to me. Definitely check the oil level in the sump.

 

Would a head gasket upside down and back to font actually fit? If so it may well block the rocker oil feed.

 

Have known the wrong injectors fitted to a 1.5 that pushed the bottom of the heat shield out.

Hi tony, looking on eBay at head gaskets it seems the gasket can be put on incorrect blocking the oil ways as you say, one possibility as to why there is no oil to the rockers. 

Would a faulty oil pump have seized the engine quickly if there was no oil supply to any of the moving parts ? The engine still turns over but like I say the chugging noise is still present, I'm kind of reluctant to attempt to start it again.

14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

By a reputable company, or a DIYer ?

 

Is there any warranty from the seller, or the 'engine rebuilder' ?

 

Did you check the oil before starting ?

Apparently rebuilt the engine himself Alan and I bought the boat sold as seen so no warranty unfortunatly. 

Yes I checked the oil and its fine 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Mikepunn said:

Apparently rebuilt the engine himself Alan and I bought the boat sold as seen so no warranty unfortunatly. 

Yes I checked the oil and its fine 

Well, its was worth asking.

Good luck with it.

[Tony Brooks]

34 minutes ago, Mikepunn said:

Would a faulty oil pump have seized the engine quickly if there was no oil supply to any of the moving parts ? The engine still turns over but like I say the chugging noise is still present, I'm kind of reluctant to attempt to start it again.

 

If the oil pump had failed then I think you would have about one minute running before the big ends started knocking so from your symptoms I doubt its the oil pump.

 

36 minutes ago, Mikepunn said:

Hi Tracy, it sounds like a lose injector chuff sound, after further investigation I've found the noise to be coming from the air intake possibly an inlet valve sticking open or worse.

 

 

Have you had the rocker cover off to have a look & check the valve clearances?

[BWM]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If the oil pump had failed then I think you would have about one minute running before the big ends started knocking so from your symptoms I doubt its the oil pump.

 

 

Have you had the rocker cover off to have a look & check the valve clearances?

And also to check if any of the valves have dropped. 

[Tracy D'arth]

Sounds like first job is make sure there is oil pressure, does the light go out?

Check tappets and check that there are no valves sticking open at the same time. Inlet chuff could be stuck/bent valve, bits in the chamber.

Then head off would be my next move. All should be revealed.

After rebuilding dozens of BMC small diesels, I still cannot remember if it is possible to fit the gasket wrong, I would be surprised if it were, someone would have already done it.

[magnetman]

Could the sparks have just been bits of soot from a coked up engine which had been given some work to do? 

 

I've seen sparks out of the exhaust on a Russell Newbery I used to own. Engine is fine still running nothing wrong with it but after extended idling it coked up. 

 

On one of my current boats there are two BMC 1.5D engines. One of them makes a loud knocking noise from air intake. 

 

It seems to be related to loose tappets and specifically soft tappet screws which have no longer got ball ends on them.  I was able to adjust enough to lose the knocking but due to the shortened screws no room to put locking nuts on. 

 

So new screws are on order. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by magnetman

[Mikepunn]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Have you had the rocker cover off to have a look & check the valve clearances?

I took the rocker cover off earlier today and turned her over to see if there was any oil supply at all, was none. I'm just trying to get hold of a feeler gauge. Should be here in next 10 minutes.

 

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

4 hours ago, Mikepunn said:

 

If the oil pump had failed then I think you would have about one minute running before the big ends started knocking so from your symptoms I doubt its the oil pump.

I'm glad to hear that as it was running a lot longer then a minute, so I think I'll have to inspect the head gasket. Can I reuse the head gasket after removing or should I purchase a new one if I find its been fitted incorrectly

 

3 hours ago, BWM said:

And also to check if any of the valves have dropped

So I guess its head off then 

 

3 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Sounds like first job is make sure there is oil pressure, does the light go out?

Check tappets and check that there are no valves sticking open at the same time. Inlet chuff could be stuck/bent valve, bits in the chamber.

Then head off would be my next move. All should be revealed.

After rebuilding dozens of BMC small diesels, I still cannot remember if it is possible to fit the gasket wrong, I would be surprised if it were, someone would have already done it.

There is a thread on canal world of someone having the gasket fitted incorrectly and blocking the oil ways to the rocker resulting in excessive wear. 

 

The only light I have is a red light and I believe that to be something to do with the batteries. It does go out though so I might be mistaken

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Mikepunn
Spelling mistake

[Mikepunn]

30 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Could the sparks have just been bits of soot from a coked up engine which had been given some work to do? 

 

I've seen sparks out of the exhaust on a Russell Newbery I used to own. Engine is fine still running nothing wrong with it but after extended idling it coked up. 

 

On one of my current boats there are two BMC 1.5D engines. One of them makes a loud knocking noise from air intake. 

 

It seems to be related to loose tappets and specifically soft tappet screws which have no longer got ball ends on them.  I was able to adjust enough to lose the knocking but due to the shortened screws no room to put locking nuts on. 

 

So new screws are on order. 

 

 

 

 

I'm hoping it is just burning soot but it came at the same time the cuffing started from the inlet. I think that because there is no oil supply to the rockers its a head off job.

It may possibly be the tappets are knackered as there was no oil to the rockers so that's something to have a close look at when I take it apart.

 

Is it possible a bit of piston ring has snapped off and damaged a valve? I don't know if its possible but worth a look anyway. If there is any damage on the cylinder walls I think the engine might be scrapped and a new one purchased to replace it.

[Tony Brooks]

45 minutes ago, Mikepunn said:

 

I'm glad to hear that as it was running a lot longer then a minute, so I think I'll have to inspect the head gasket. Can I reuse the head gasket after removing or should I purchase a new one if I find its been fitted incorrectly

 

 

I would never reuse a head gasket, especially modern ones that are made of composite material. In the old days with copper asbestos some risked reusing after annealing but not worth the hassle if they leak.

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I would never reuse a head gasket, especially modern ones that are made of composite material. In the old days with copper asbestos some risked reusing after annealing but not worth the hassle if they leak.

Whilst I agree with Tony, I have on occasions when necessity ruled reused head gaskets that have not failed but have been removed for inspection.

I coat both sides with Blue Hylomar spray and have never had one fail.

I would not worry about the rockers if the valves have not seized in the guides. The tappet blocks that run on the cam have their own oil feed besides what runs down the pushrods.

[jacko264]

It could be a burnt damaged valve  if the engine timing is out you will be able to see when you remove the head I would never reuse a head gasket  for what they cost

graham

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, Mikepunn said:

I'm hoping it is just burning soot but it came at the same time the cuffing started from the inlet. I think that because there is no oil supply to the rockers its a head off job.

It may possibly be the tappets are knackered as there was no oil to the rockers so that's something to have a close look at when I take it apart.

 

Is it possible a bit of piston ring has snapped off and damaged a valve? I don't know if its possible but worth a look anyway. If there is any damage on the cylinder walls I think the engine might be scrapped and a new one purchased to replace it.

It's interesting about the oil feed. 

 

My engines seem to be mid 80s with not a lot of hours (less than 2000 according to the clocks). Units could be older than the clocks and only one of them has tappet problems.  

 

I've so far had three tappet screws out on the one engine which were all nackered. I mean completely nackered. Showing signs the ball heads not being adequately hardened. 

 

Ok so it could be oil feed but it could also just be soft tappet screws. 

 

One of the screws:

 

 

 

It will take someone with a bigger brain than mine (good luck with that) to explain a reason for this other than poor hardening in the original part. 

 

ETA bearing in mind the correct part is this item and I definitely don't think the engines have had any hard work.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by magnetman

[Man 'o Kent]

When you turned the engine over with the rocker cover off did you pay particular attention to the action of each of the rockers? Best chance you have of spotting a suspicious valve action without further stripping.

Before removing the head is there any chance of getting a compression test done on the cylinders?

A good result would imply there is little wrong with the rings, pistons,  bores & valve seating. 

 

As long as a broken ring stays in its groove little harm is likely to be done at least in the short term although compression will almost certainly suffer. If a broken ring "gets out" then you can wave goodbye to the piston and the bore.

If the boat hadn't been unused for a while then carbon & detritus in the exhaust could well have been shaken loose and ignited by the hot gasses. However black smoke would imply a bad injector atomization.

 

My old National once did a memorable impression of Vesuvius, some twit had let most of the water out of a long pound and I had to get through so it was a case of half water, half mud and full throttle, fire, brimstone and black smoke into a darkening sky, must have scared the wildlife somewhat.

 

[ditchcrawler]

A bit here on dry rockers https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/bmc-thornycroft-t90-1-5-no-oil-to-the-rockers-help.61966/

[Tracy D'arth]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

A bit here on dry rockers https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/bmc-thornycroft-t90-1-5-no-oil-to-the-rockers-help.61966/

Well found Sir.

 

So its possible to fit it wrong.

Good comment about having the rocker pillar in the right place.  I know you can't punch it through in situ as the holes in the block and head don't line up, there is a small horizontal gallery between.

[bizzard]

You might be able to check if the head gasket is around the wrong way by removing the rocker shaft and pedestals and beneath either the front or rear pedestal ''almost certainly the front one, I can't remember'' will be the oil feed hole to the rockers. Whichever end that pedestal is is where the corresponding hole in the block should be. If you poke a shapened thin rod down the oil feed hole in the head it should find the hole in the gasket and block. If it stops at about the depth of the head the gasket is very likely the wrong way round.  The sparks are almost certainly just soot in the exhaust system burning off. My Lister ST blows em out if I rev it up sharply when hot.

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, bizzard said:

If you poke a shapened thin rod down the oil feed hole in the head it should find the hole in the gasket and block. 

See my post 21, it won't line up I'm afraid.

[bizzard]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

See my post 21, it won't line up I'm afraid.

Yes, yes

 

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

See my post 21, it won't line up I'm afraid.

. I remember now, the oil hole in the gasket is elongated to account for that.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, bizzard said:

Yes, yes

 

. I remember now, the oil hole in the gasket is elongated to account for that.

We used to have a problem with that oil way offset on Volvo 2.4 petrol engines in 244s. They used to gum up completely and cut off the oil flow to the rockers. We used to tap the hole in the top of the head and fit a pipe so we could use compressed air to blow them clear. Sometimes it took an awful lot of pressure to clear them...................