Eberspachers and Biodiesel

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Is there sufficient capacity to  supply HVO (instead of red diesel it could be red HVO) to the inland  waterways and coastal marine  markets without competing with land for food crops and if so what would be the estimated cost of the fuel per litre compared to red diesel?

 

But in the short-term (30 years ?) the Government has announced that boaters can continue to use Red diesel (gas-oil) exactly as previously.

[Sarah HeleneUK]

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But in the short-term (30 years ?) the Government has announced that boaters can continue to use Red diesel (gas-oil) exactly as previously.

The issue there for those of us who want to cross the channel ( I own a yacht on the lumpy water ) is the EU rules not all;owing red diesel of any kind to be used on recreational craft. They'd been trying to stop the UK from using it for years. The last few years quite a few yachties have been fined in Belgium and Holland for having red in their tanks and reserves. France till now never bothered to check anything, but that will change for sure now we are a 3rd nation.

[Momac]

47 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But in the short-term (30 years ?) the Government has announced that boaters can continue to use Red diesel (gas-oil) exactly as previously.

Wouldn't it be good to use  a fuel that is more environmentally friendly ?   

[Alan de Enfield]

49 minutes ago, Sarah HeleneUK said:

The issue there for those of us who want to cross the channel ( I own a yacht on the lumpy water ) is the EU rules not all;owing red diesel of any kind to be used on recreational craft. They'd been trying to stop the UK from using it for years. The last few years quite a few yachties have been fined in Belgium and Holland for having red in their tanks and reserves. France till now never bothered to check anything, but that will change for sure now we are a 3rd nation.

 

I know I am in the same position (see pic of my Cat, coming into our mooring in Hull, and in Croatia)

This forum is about the UK canals so whilst the EU rules are important to some of us, they do not apply for the vast majority on the forum.

 

All you / we need to do is to use White diesel  for a week or so before making the trip, or, alternatively, as we use such small amounts anyway, just pay the slight increase in price and use white all the time.

 

 

France have (previously) said arrival with 'some' red is allowed but retain all your receipts to show that you have paid full tax whilst in EU waters.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Sarah HeleneUK]

37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I know I am in the same position (see pic of my Cat, coming into our mooring in Hull, and in Croatia)

This forum is about the UK canals so whilst the EU rules are important to some of us, they do not apply for the vast majority on the forum.

 

All you / we need to do is to use White diesel  for a week or so before making the trip, or, alternatively, as we use such small amounts anyway, just pay the slight increase in price and use white all the time.

 

 

France have (previously) said arrival with 'some' red is allowed but retain all your receipts to show that you have paid full tax whilst in EU waters.

 

 

Hi Alan,

 

Yes I appreciate this is an inland waterways forum, but the post came up in a google search, so I joined to get info. I've since discovered that some "Harvest Fuel" garages now have HVO on their forecourts. I'm quite happy to drive 50 miles each way to fill a years worth of 25L  jerry cans.

 

Yes I've been using Esso "retail" white diesel for about 18 months, but the FEME is now causing some issues I think with my Eberspacher, it's getting noisier and the exhaust is dirtier than with red diesel. Yes I've been keeping receipts and until we cross again this year I want to see first hand how the French are going to be towards us, the last thing we need is any hassle going into "a port of entry" like Le Havre or Cherbourg. Of course we do pay tax on the "traction" % part of our red diesel fuel anyway as liesure (non commercial) craft, but eliminating red from my boat completely reduces any possibility of challenges.

 

Regards, Sarah.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Sarah HeleneUK said:

Yes I've been using Esso "retail" white diesel for about 18 months, but the FEME is now causing some issues I think with my Eberspacher, it's getting noisier and the exhaust is dirtier than with red diesel. Yes I've been keeping receipts and until we cross again this year I want to see first hand how the French are going to be towards us, the last thing we need is any hassle going into "a port of entry" like Le Havre or Cherbourg. Of course we do pay tax on the "traction" % part of our red diesel fuel anyway as liesure (non commercial) craft, but eliminating red from my boat completely reduces any possibility of challenges.

 

Good luck for the future, its not going to be made easy for us as a 3rd country, but as you say, hopefully very little difference as some countries have always been problematic with Red diesel, but that was resolved thanks to the RYA when the fines were put on hold.

 

One wonders how the EU will view rebated price HVO ?

I guess that Full Duty paid HVO (from a garage will be OK if you have eveidence) 

Do you get around into the Med ? (problems there with discharging Grey water - let alone Black water)

 

Looking forward to a good 'season'. Our boat is over in Wales and we are not even allowed to cross the border at the moment. We have the crane booked for 29th April so hoping that restriction will be lifted on the 12th so we can get some work done before lifting back in.

 

Stay safe.

[Sarah HeleneUK]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Good luck for the future, its not going to be made easy for us as a 3rd country, but as you say, hopefully very little difference as some countries have always been problematic with Red diesel, but that was resolved thanks to the RYA when the fines were put on hold.

 

One wonders how the EU will view rebated price HVO ?

I guess that Full Duty paid HVO (from a garage will be OK if you have eveidence) 

Do you get around into the Med ? (problems there with discharging Grey water - let alone Black water)

 

Looking forward to a good 'season'. Our boat is over in Wales and we are not even allowed to cross the border at the moment. We have the crane booked for 29th April so hoping that restriction will be lifted on the 12th so we can get some work done before lifting back in.

 

Stay safe.

Well as you say, we use very little diesel anyway so don't mind paying extra to please the authorities. We've done St Vaast pontoon to pontoon (74 miles through the water) in under 12 hours and less than an hours engine running ( maybe 2 litres ).

 

I've not ventured further than Belfast ( where I bought my boat ) but intend to when I retire in 2 years or so. I've been to Gosport every month to fulfill insurance requirements under essential checks and maintenance, especially keeping the tank topped up with the heater burning a litre a day.

 

Well good luck with the weather for your planned maintence, then warm fair winds aft of the beam for the season ahead.

[Up-Side-Down]

3 hours ago, MartynG said:

Is there sufficient capacity to  supply HVO (instead of red diesel it could be red HVO) to the inland  waterways and coastal marine  markets without competing with land for food crops and if so what would be the estimated cost of the fuel per litre compared to red diesel?

Currently yes. All feedstock used in HVO manufacture undergoes a robust certification process to ensure that it is not from land that should be used for the production of food crops. However, demand is such that EU and similar 'local' sources of feedstock are proving insufficient and I understand that waste vegetable oil and animal fats are started to be imported from China. Consequently the origin (and therefore certification) is going to be a lot harder to monitor.

 

The Low Carbon Fuels Unit of DfT have projections for supply and demand of organic feedstock looking at all sectors of demand for biofuels and have started to consult with the different sectors as to where to encourage (and therefore to incentivise) the uses of organic and inorganic biofuels. Currently they are suggesting that there should be no subsidy for Domestic Maritime on organic biofuel use as they feel that inorganic biofuels are more appropriate. In other words organic biofuels should be retained for aviation, road, NRMM (non-road mobile machinery) etc.. IWA; CBOA and RYA are putting up a case for a sub-sector of Domestic Maritime (inland commercial; inland leisure; coastal commercial and coastal leisure) which should be treated separately by attracting subsidy to give price parity of HVO with mineral diesel. Many will spot the similarities with the red diesel saga here, so right now it's a case of 'watch this space'.

[Up-Side-Down]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But in the short-term (30 years ?) the Government has announced that boaters can continue to use Red diesel (gas-oil) exactly as previously.

Given its green credentials, its red HVO we're looking to encourage rather than its 100% carbon cousin, mineral diesel. As storage problems with B7 (soon to be B10) increase so again it's a case of making HVO widely available on inland and coastal waterways at a price comparable with mineral diesel. Currently it's about £0.10 dearer and availability is poor.

Just now, Up-Side-Down said:

Currently yes. All feedstock used in HVO manufacture undergoes a robust certification process to ensure that it is not from land that should be used for the production of food crops. However, demand is such that EU and similar 'local' sources of feedstock are proving insufficient and I understand that waste vegetable oil and animal fats are started to be imported from China. Consequently the origin (and therefore certification) is going to be a lot harder to monitor.

 

The Low Carbon Fuels Unit of DfT have projections for supply and demand of organic feedstock looking at all sectors of demand for biofuels and have started to consult with the different sectors as to where to encourage (and therefore to incentivise) the uses of organic and inorganic biofuels. Currently they are suggesting that there should be no subsidy for Domestic Maritime on organic biofuel use as they feel that inorganic biofuels are more appropriate. In other words organic biofuels should be retained for aviation, road, NRMM (non-road mobile machinery) etc.. IWA; CBOA and RYA are putting up a case for a sub-sector of Domestic Maritime (inland commercial; inland leisure; coastal commercial and coastal leisure) which should be treated separately by attracting subsidy to give price parity of HVO with mineral diesel. Many will spot the similarities with the red diesel saga here, so right now it's a case of 'watch this space'.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Given its green credentials, its red HVO we're looking to encourage rather than its 100% carbon cousin, mineral diesel. As storage problems with B7 (soon to be B10) increase so again it's a case of making HVO widely available on inland and coastal waterways at a price comparable with mineral diesel. Currently it's about £0.10 dearer and availability is poor.

 

 

 

I have no argument that it is greener than dino-juice, just the fact that the option to use 'gas-oil' remains.

 

I currently have 1000 litres in my tank at home and 2500 litres in the boat so at the current rate of boat usage it'll be a while before I need to refuel anyway.

 

A 10p per litre premium adds up to quite a bit when filling up with 2000 litres.

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Sarah HeleneUK said:

Hi Alan,

 

Yes I appreciate this is an inland waterways forum, but the post came up in a google search, so I joined to get info. I've since discovered that some "Harvest Fuel" garages now have HVO on their forecourts. I'm quite happy to drive 50 miles each way to fill a years worth of 25L  jerry cans.

 

Yes I've been using Esso "retail" white diesel for about 18 months, but the FEME is now causing some issues I think with my Eberspacher, it's getting noisier and the exhaust is dirtier than with red diesel. Yes I've been keeping receipts and until we cross again this year I want to see first hand how the French are going to be towards us, the last thing we need is any hassle going into "a port of entry" like Le Havre or Cherbourg. Of course we do pay tax on the "traction" % part of our red diesel fuel anyway as liesure (non commercial) craft, but eliminating red from my boat completely reduces any possibility of challenges.

 

Regards, Sarah.

I

 

I thought that read and white diesel were now generally the same fuel - only the marker dye differentiates.

[Up-Side-Down]

2 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I thought that read and white diesel were now generally the same fuel - only the marker dye differentiates.

Indeed!

[Up-Side-Down]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I have no argument that it is greener than dino-juice, just the fact that the option to use 'gas-oil' remains.

 

I currently have 1000 litres in my tank at home and 2500 litres in the boat so at the current rate of boat usage it'll be a while before I need to refuel anyway.

 

A 10p per litre premium adds up to quite a bit when filling up with 2000 litres.

I can't see any reason to legislate against gas oil (or indeed MGO) for the foreseeable future. My only concern is to see some financial support for HVO through the existing RTFO/RTFC system which is a very well trodden route in the aviation, road transport and NRMM sectors so there is price parity. For the time being, I then see it as a matter of personal choice and up to a commercial decision for stockists such as boatyards and the like. HVO is 100% miscible so there are no problems with 'mix and match'. CRT and other AINA members are looking at it seriously as the interim solution within their Position Paper for Sustainable Boating but Joe Public price and availability is undoubtedly the key. Hopefully, people will come to realise that a) there is a price to be paid for attaining a zero carbon future and b) it's worth paying!

[Mike Todd]

On 23/11/2020 at 10:00, Tony Brooks said:

Remember the test house they used was not exactly independent re the products tested. Not saying the test were deliberately biased but I felt the comparison of emulsifies with biocides using fixed time periods could well have produced a bias to the biocides as far as killing bug was concerned. I don't see how two different types of products that should be used and perform in different ways can be properly compared with the same test procedure. Still, its the best we have to date.

But the usage environment (a typical boater's life - whatever that is) the tests should seek to rep0licate that without any prior knowledge of how the additives work. After all, the boater is only concerned with the effect not the mechanism.

[Tony Brooks]

56 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But the usage environment (a typical boater's life - whatever that is) the tests should seek to rep0licate that without any prior knowledge of how the additives work. After all, the boater is only concerned with the effect not the mechanism.

 

Indeed, the tests should but they did not. As I remember the report they simply counted in the fuel microbes after a set time and very short set time compared with the fuel in a boat tank. Any test should be done in accordance with the manufacturer's usage instructions and from what I could see they did not.  This produced, in my view, a bias in favour of the biocides that are short term bug killers and the emulsifiers that are long term bug killers. It's the same as someone ignoring instructions to apply x amount of additive at every refill and pouring it all in at once and finding it had minimal effect. You don't refill a diesel with petrol and expect the engine to work for long so you need to know what type of fuel the car needs. It's similar with fuel additives, for best effect you need to follow the instructions and try to understand how they work.

[cjeam]

11 hours ago, Sarah HeleneUK said:

I've since discovered that some "Harvest Fuel" garages now have HVO on their forecourts. I'm quite happy to drive 50 miles each way to fill a years worth of 25L  jerry cans.

Fascinating to see an active thread on this issue today!!  
I’m having a look around today because I have just filled up my car with HVO. HVO that I got by ordering a 200litre barrel from New Era fuels. Previously all suppliers have been unable to supply it in non-bulk amounts and I don’t exactly have a 1000 litre fuel tank in my garden, however recently calling revealed a few are now doing barrels.  
I will be simultaneously excited and annoyed if it transpires that Harvest fuels do have it on forecourts! But I’ve been completely unable to find that out before. If it turns out they don’t, I’m quite happy to sell you enough to fill some 25l jerry cans Sarah!  
 

It’s good to hear that the government are thinking about the provision of HVO or biofuels as part of the RFTO. I know in European countries HVO has been available at some forecourts for a while. I would imagine that inland waterways are one of the areas HVO could be a solution indefinitely for certain applications and heritage uses, rather than just a transitional fuel before electric vehicles as it may be on the roads.  

[Sarah HeleneUK]

Can I ask a rude question, how much did your 200 litre barrel cost, I've not found any commercial supplier offer that little, most have said 1000 litres minimum, Crown said they might do 500.

[Momac]

18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A 10p per litre premium adds up to quite a bit when filling up with 2000 litres.

£200

But if that 2000 litres takes 2 years to consume its £100 per year .  Could be worth paying.

But is it 10p per litre  extra ? I  expect it would be more than that .

[Alan de Enfield]

57 minutes ago, MartynG said:

£200

But if that 2000 litres takes 2 years to consume its £100 per year .  Could be worth paying.

But is it 10p per litre  extra ? I  expect it would be more than that .

 

At 10 litres per hour (1500rpm) it is only 200 hours use.

Speed up a bit and 20 litres an hour (1800rpm) is consumed.

 

That could be as little as a month, if we ever get back to normality

 

I would also be pleasently surprised if the price differential was as low as 10p

[Up-Side-Down]

10 hours ago, Sarah HeleneUK said:

Can I ask a rude question, how much did your 200 litre barrel cost, I've not found any commercial supplier offer that little, most have said 1000 litres minimum, Crown said they might do 500.

From my dealings with Crown I understand that they will send out 205 litre drums. Speak to Ryan Abreu 07585 792918 and say 'the guy from IWA sent you'.

[Momac]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

At 10 litres per hour (1500rpm) it is only 200 hours use.

Speed up a bit and 20 litres an hour (1800rpm) is consumed.

 

That could be as little as a month, if we ever get back to normality

 

I would also be pleasently surprised if the price differential was as low as 10p

I do about 100 engine hrs a year on average . Last year was exceptionally low hours as it probably was for many  - only bought 200 litres of diesel . Typically for us  its a  mix of mostly slow river speed and some fast cruising and comes to a little under 1000 litres consumed .  

I am used to paying around £1 , last year £1.11 per litre for red at the 60/40 split.

If it was £1.30 per litre for HVO it would  be worth trying. Possibly cleaner burning  and could get better mpg - who knows. 

But I am not much in favour of lugging cans of fuel to the boat nor transferring fuel from 200 litre drums.

 

On the coast I can't imagine a change to HVO in a hurry but I would like to be proven wrong.

 

 

[cjeam]

On 09/04/2021 at 00:25, Sarah HeleneUK said:

Can I ask a rude question, how much did your 200 litre barrel cost, I've not found any commercial supplier offer that little, most have said 1000 litres minimum, Crown said they might do 500.

Not rude at all   
It was expensive. For a 200 litre barrel including delivery it was £328. Which is £1.64 a litre. The delivery fee was £40, and I’m not sure how that would vary if you ordered multiple barrels or could instead get it in bulk. The fuel itself was £288 or £1.44 a litre. I don’t mind paying £1.44 a litre to drive my car on it, £1.64 is rather painful. 
This is for on-road “white” stuff. They also quoted me for off-road “red” and that was £198, 99p a litre. (I assume plus £40 delivery again.) 
And New Era do it, I believe also Speedy Fuels phoned me offering some in barrels coincidentally on the day my delivery arrived too. As above on Crown’s website it suggests they do barrels now but I didn’t phone them.  
 

There is also a company called “fuel box” who sell off-road red HVO in 20 litres boxes, intended for equipment on building sites and stuff, they might be able to get you on-road white HVO in those containers too, but I imagine that would be even more expensive. Eg one of their stockists, Express Gases in Bournemouth, are charging £34 for the 20 litre red off-road one! So I’d call them directly.  

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, cjeam said:

They also quoted me for off-road “red” and that was £198, 99p a litre. (I assume plus £40 delivery again.) 

 

 

Hopefully a misplaced 'point' in the numbers ?

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Hopefully a misplaced 'point' in the numbers ?

 

No, £198 for 200 litres, which is 99p per litre.

[Momac]

I see Shell are providing  HVO to commercial customers but with  different mix proportions of HVO to ordinary diesel but also an option  including 100% HVO. 

So dinosaur diesel and HVO can be mixed.