Lumpy water living

[sailor0500]

7 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I think I said this only a day or so ago, but it bears repeating:

 

I have been involved in sailing/boating since before I could walk, or so I am told. I reached the dizzy heights of 3rd Officer with a merchant shipping line, and have sailed as a hobby since my late teens, mostly around Wales, and across the Irish Sea until 2006.

 

In 2006 I bought my own boat, (Moody 44), and did the RYA Inland Waterways Helmsmans Course to give my wife some idea on calm water. I also did the RYA Diesel Engine Course. Then I sailed it to Lagos, Portugal, where I stayed for a while, and did the RYA Yachtmaster Prep. Course and exam, in 2007. I think I put 12,000 miles on the Yachtmaster questionnaire, with several thousand as skipper, (could have been more in both cases?). Then went on to Malta in late 2007, and back to Glasson Dock in 2009.

 

In the 2 RYA boating courses I learned tons of stuff that I definitely didn't know, and which would have been extremely useful had I done them at the earliest opportunity, (30 years earlier  ). Ditto the engine course. We don't get to turn the clock back those 30 years  

 

So I have the opposite view to you. Do the whole RYA thing as soon as possible. You might learn to get by on other peoples boats, or with experienced friends on your own boat, but there is nothing quite like the speed and structure of the RYA courses.

 

 

I too have a lifetimes experience, having sailed for almost 60 years and have held a Yachtmaster Cert for most of that time. My point about the RYA thing is that many people get the impression that they can't sail without it, and many others think if they have one they know it all when in my opinion it,s only a starting point.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, sailor0500 said:

and many others think if they have one they know it all when in my opinion it,s only a starting point.

I can agree with that.

Learn the theory, but practical knowledge & experience only comes with time.

 

You can build experience on top of having no qualifications, but by starting with (say) a little 10 footer and an outboard or a 'mirror dinghy' and build up slowly in both size, type and distance covered - there is no way on eath that I would suggest that someone with only UK canal experince buy a 35 foot sail boat, or cruiser and head off singlehanded down the busiest waterway in the world**, across the bay of Biscay and round into the Med.

 

** Most maritime traffic between the Atlantic Ocean and the North Sea and Baltic Sea passes through the Strait of Dover, rather than taking the longer and more dangerous route around the north of Scotland. The strait is the busiest international seaway in the world, used by over 400 commercial vessels daily.

[Richard10002]

32 minutes ago, sailor0500 said:

I too have a lifetimes experience, having sailed for almost 60 years and have held a Yachtmaster Cert for most of that time. My point about the RYA thing is that many people get the impression that they can't sail without it,

You and I are prime examples of how wrong that is

32 minutes ago, sailor0500 said:

and many others think if they have one they know it all when in my opinion it's only a starting point.

Agreed... but good to get your starting point in at the start. I was merely suggesting that, with hindsight, I wish I had.

[blackrose]

16 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

 

 

2) Lumpy water boating is much more expensive than inland boating. Marina moorings are more expensive. Boats are more expensive. Bits for boats are more expensive, maintenance in more expensive, and you can't skimp on it.

 

 

A friend of mine living on a motor/sailing boat on the Rhone tells me he often meets people coming up from the Med complaining about how expensive the coastal marinas are. I expect the OP may come to this realisation too and end up back on the inland waterways, just in a different country. Mind you, without wishing to open another can of worms, that was my retirement plan but brexit has thrown all that into doubt. Not the difficulty of taking the boat over as much as potentially having no rights to live in the EU.

[LadyG]

20 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

Can't say anything useful me being a muddy ditchcrawler,but I can see where you are coming from.The thought of sailing  anywhere without CRT stoppages is very appealing.The boat you have linked to looks gorgeous.

I would guess though that the reality of sea cruising will most likely be rather different to what one dreams.

As for single handing,didn't Francis Chichester sail around the world single handed when he was old and sick?

 

There are plenty of stoppages out sailing salty waters, most notably for the singlehander or with an inexperienced crew, the weather, and the tide. I sailed tound the Mull of Kintyre on a regular basis singlehanded, but only when forecast winds were F3 or less, it's the nearest one gets to Tierra del Fuego in the British Isles. 

The two  or three boats shown, the first is a money pit, being an old wooden boat of little provenance, the Fisher wallows like a plastic bath tub in bad wearher, and the rowing lifeboat is a conversion, for the enthusiast only. Wooden boats really need to spend winter in a covered boatshed while the crew spend every weekend stripping down the varnish, paint, engine , rudder. Every few years are spent caulking with a nice set of vintage caulking irons' after replacing rotten plank, or even worse, knees or ribs.

Berthing in Largs marina is £450 per metre per annum, not cheap, but it's a cracking marina in a cracking location.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by LadyG

[Murflynn]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

  Every few years are spent caulking with a nice set of vintage caulking irons' after replacing rotten plank, or even worse, knees or ribs.

 

old salty sailors never die - they just replace their rotting knees and ribs on a regular basis.  

[LadyG]

8 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

You and I are prime examples of how wrong that is

Agreed... but good to get your starting point in at the start. I was merely suggesting that, with hindsight, I wish I had.

I disagree, after about twenty years sailing on other peoples boats, mostly racing with a bit of cruising in the Hebrides, I bought a blue water 30 ft , with twin forestays instead of furling, and with reefing at the mast, I managed fine singlehanded, just needs careful planning, and a good boat.

I considered I was sufficiently competant to sit the Yachtmaster  but I felt the examiner was out to prove a point, that there were far too many passes in Scotland, it did not go well, he stood on the transom, holding on to the backstay, something I would not allow crew to do,  he wanted me to drill a hole in the hull for some reason, related to fire in the engine, he asked me to go to deep water anchorage, where we found a  Navy ship with divers down, I know better than to mess about with these guys and I withdrew.

Aparently I was too cautious!

Undeterred, I went on a  Sunsail Yachtmaster prep course, where I learned that most of the crew had little sailing experience, one did not even understand deviation etc. I was by far the most experienced, I didn't learn much new apart from how to moor up in Cowes. We all passed, in spite of nearly ending up in Ryde High Street, and one nearly lost the man overboard fender (on the prep course, admittedly). I felt it devalued my qualification. I don't remember my Coastal Skipper, but I thought the others were about that level, apart from the one who was not even day skipper imho. I have some idea that we only need to know one knot, or was that one some other course, I don't know, but these things are basic safety, and it does not take more than a few evenings to learn a few knots.

Edited November 18, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

A friend of mine living on a motor/sailing boat on the Rhone tells me he often meets people coming up from the Med complaining about how expensive the coastal marinas are.

The Med marinas can be very expensive, its a case of supply & demand and the demand for 'fully equipped berths' in 'millionaires marinas' in 'warmer weather locations is high and the prices follow.

 

The OP was talking about (eventually) living on the hook, (which is not charged) or on a swinging mooring which is £1000's cheaper than a marina berth.

 

In the UK marina mooring prices do vary, unsurprisingly the South coast tend to be in the £3k-£4k (and even higher) bracket, Further North will be in the £2k -£3k area.

In 2019 I was paying just over £2000 for my BWML mooring on the River Trent, and paying for a C&RT licence and BSSC which is not required on the Sea, so a further saving.

 

Daily vistor rates are not  dissimilar on the coast as to the Inland waterways.

 

Plymouth (a big well equipped marina) is around £25 per night.

York Marina is £27.50 per night

Mercia is £13 per night

BWML is £15 per night

 

Obviously on the canals you would rarely go into a marina for the night and just moor up on the bank-side. No charge.

Exactly the same as on a sea-boat, you anchor up. No charge.

 

Coastal boating doesn't have to be expensive.

11 minutes ago, LadyG said:

...   he wanted me to drill a hole in the hull for some reason, related to fire in the engine,

Its amazing how many people are 'out to get you', it seems a feature of your life.

 

Presumably with all of your subsequent experience and passing the yachtmaster you now know why ?

 

(It is fairly obvious).

Edited November 18, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[LadyG]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The Med marinas can be very expensive, its a case of supply & demand and the demand for 'fully equipped berths' in 'millionaires marinas' in 'warmer weather locations is high and the prices follow.

 

The OP was talking about (eventually) living on the hook, (which is not charged) or on a swinging mooring which is £1000's cheaper than a marina berth.

 

In the UK marina mooring prices do vary, unsurprisingly the South coast tend to be in the £3k-£4k (and even higher) bracket, Further North will be in the £2k -£3k area.

In 2019 I was paying just over £2000 for my BWML mooring on the River Trent, and paying for a C&RT licence and BSSC which is not required on the Sea, so a further saving.

 

Daily vistor rates are not  dissimilar on the coast as to the Inland waterways.

 

Plymouth (a big well equipped marina) is around £25 per night.

York Marina is £27.50 per night

Mercia is £13 per night

BWML is £15 per night

 

Obviously on the canals you would rarely go into a marina for the night and just moor up on the bank-side. No charge.

Exactly the same as on a sea-boat, you anchor up. No charge.

 

Coastal boating doesn't have to be expensive.

Its amazing how many people are 'out to get you', it seems a feature of your life.

 

Presumably with all of your subsequent experience and passing the yachtmaster you now know why ?

 

(It is fairly obvious).

Tell me, oh wise one...., in fact, I 'll just put you on my ignore list.

Edited November 18, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Tell me, oh wise one....

You must have a 'spy-hole' to fire an extinguisher thru, or as a visual inspection in the event of an engine fire.

If you have a engine fire the last thing you should ever do is lift the deck boards and feed it with oxygen.

 

Since the RCD I think it has been a madatory fitting in new boats - certainly the Cat has a 'plastic bung' in each cabin back wall which are the engine room bulkheads.

 

Boats capable of over a 'certain speed'  (CBA to look but think its 15knts) also require automatic engine room extinguishers.

[LadyG]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You must have a 'spy-hole' to fire an extinguisher thru, or as a visual inspection in the event of an engine fire.

If you have a engine fire the last thing you should ever do is lift the deck boards and feed it with oxygen.

 

Since the RCD I think it has been a madatory fitting in new boats - certainly the Cat has a 'plastic bung' in each cabin back wall which are the engine room bulkheads.

 

Boats capable of over a 'certain speed'  (CBA to look but think its 15knts) also require automatic engine room extinguishers.

But not a good idea to put the spy hole though the hull below the waterline, so it could not have been that, it was related to the sea cocks as far as I recal, I lagged the pipes with a material used by North Sea fire fighters, in order that the hose would not melt and allow ingress of water, I still can't remember his argument. Btw the second Examiner could not understand why I got failed first time around, I inadvertantly let on that this was my second attempt!

 

I had a hole (to allow access to the sea cock, such a hole, plus an automatic fire extinguisher in the engine space. Being singlehand at sea one needs to have belt and braces.

I don't have this on my narrowboat, I think an engine fire inland, even on a river, is survivable, even if catastrophic for the boat.

Edited November 18, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

..........he wanted me to drill a hole in the hull for some reason, related to fire in the engine,

 

40 minutes ago, LadyG said:

...........so it could not have been that, it was related to the sea cocks as far as I recal,

 

When discussing things it is better to try & be consistant, otherwise it starts to look a bit 

[Murflynn]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Tell me, oh wise one...., in fact, I 'll just put you on my ignore list.

Alan, you should be flattered.  Join the club. 

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

Alan, you should be flattered.  Join the club. 

 

The problem is that doing that doesn't stop newbies, who know no better, taking the crap as being gospel "she has 42 years sailing experience, she must know what she is talking about"

[sailor0500]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

There are plenty of stoppages out sailing salty waters, most notably for the singlehander or with an inexperienced crew, the weather, and the tide. I sailed tound the Mull of Kintyre on a regular basis singlehanded, but only when forecast winds were F3 or less, it's the nearest one gets to Tierra del Fuego in the British Isles. 

The two  or three boats shown, the first is a money pit, being an old wooden boat of little provenance, the Fisher wallows like a plastic bath tub in bad wearher, and the rowing lifeboat is a conversion, for the enthusiast only. Wooden boats really need to spend winter in a covered boatshed while the crew spend every weekend stripping down the varnish, paint, engine , rudder. Every few years are spent caulking with a nice set of vintage caulking irons' after replacing rotten plank, or even worse, knees or ribs.

Berthing in Largs marina is £450 per metre per annum, not cheap, but it's a cracking marina in a cracking location.

 

But all boatbulding materials have disadvantages. Have you priced Osmosis treatment recently? And the fact that your boat can be out of commision for a year or more to get the moisture levels down. I did a full Osmosis treatment myself on my last yacht including relaminating with bi-axial cloth and waiting for the moisture readings to drop when you want to go sailing is a nightmare. With a good wooden boat maintainance is ongoing and much of the work can take place in the winter months.

As for the Mull of Kintyre the trick is to stay close inshore. And I mean very close inshore. If I remember the pilot correctly it says you need to be either a stones throw from the rocks or 5 miles offshore.

[tehmarks]

Thank you all for the advice so far — it's given me a lot to think about. A few more questions that have occurred to me:

• Motor sailers — I'd assumed that it would be difficult and/or unconventional to bring lines back in to the pilothouse in the same way you would bring them back to the cockpit. Is that true?
• Is the main reason for bringing lines back to the cockpit to avoid the risk of going forward on one's own, or are there boat-handling implications as well (ie one can't easily abandon the helm when alone to go forward)?
• Is it feasible to single-hand something other than a 'bog standard' Bermudan sloop, ie a ketch or yawl? Ditto with a gaff rig — does that make life any more difficult for the single-handed sailor? Ignoring the detail of familiarity and experience, and looking purely in the sense of appropriate boat choice on a long-term basis.

Just to clarify my mooring plans: I initially plan(ned) to find a deep water mooring somewhere around Devon. I haven't really looked into it in any detail beyond searching through some of the sailing forums for previous advice. I was hoping I could find a mooring somewhere like (as a complete example) Brixham or Salcombe Harbours, and keep a low profile if aboard for extended periods. The boat won't be permanently on the mooring and I won't always be aboard, which I guess would help somewhat. My hope for my Mediterranean adventure ambitions is to be on the hook for as much as humanly possible. I'm not a fan of marinas in general, and so I envisage only visiting them when necessary for supplies, water, logistics, etc. I would like to make the boat as self-sufficient as possible — large tanks, solar/wind, potentially a water-maker, etc. Again I haven't dived into the details in depth yet, but that is the hope. The Mediteranean adventure also won't be long-term, perhaps a year or two. The emphasis is on the climbing as much as the sailing (and I appreciate the difficulties that that will create with watch-keeping and needing someone aboard while at anchor).

 

One other thing is that I'm hoping that the next boat may be 'the' boat. I've lived in twelve different places and moved fifteen times in the last ten years, and I'd really like the next move to be longer-term. That's not an absolute, and I'm a very flexible person, but I would like a boat with the long-term future in mind, that will be able to cope with whatever future stupidity I fancy when I have much more experience (an ocean crossing, perhaps?)

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The problem is that doing that doesn't stop newbies, who know no better, taking the crap as being gospel "she has 42 years sailing experience, she must know what she is talking about"

Speaking very generally and aimed at no one particular person: one would hope that newbies may get a flavour of the character of those giving advice by their previous postings and the manner thereof, and weigh their advice accordingly.

Edited November 18, 2020 by tehmarks

[bizzard]

The lines you mention are called sheets Headsail sheets and mainsail sheets, They usually are all brought back to the cockpit, the halliards wouldn't usually be.  Ideally a gaff rigged boat is easier to handle than a Bermudan rig, even though two mainsail halliards are envolved easier to shorten sail in a blow or drop the whole lot down quickly in an emergency. Self acting gib sail is very handy for single handers.   The pic of this gaff rigged boat is old fashioned. You wouldn't really need the headsail on the bow sprit.  The mainsail is the thing.

Edited November 18, 2020 by bizzard

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Berthing in Largs marina is £450 per metre per annum, not cheap, but it's a cracking marina in a cracking location.

It is, we used quite extensively on our West Coast cruises.

 

We  also used Troon and Rhu, both nice and cheaper than Largs

 

Visiting the Submarines (where were were chased by soldiers in a 'rubber dinghy wearing black wetsuits, masks and holding machine guns)

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

When discussing things it is better to try & be consistant, otherwise it starts to look a bit 

Read my post, it clearly states hole in the hull. Please just get on with your own life and I'll get on with mine.

There is a no go zone round several areas on the Clyde, I think its on the paper charts, almanacs, and Notices to Mariners when exercises are being carried out.

They will chase off people who ignore the no go zones, and also folks who don't read the signs where they berth, the crew a wear a casual uniform on deck in harbour, but balaclavas, dark clothing, and shrouded machine guns on their RIBS. 

Someone is always on watch 24/7 on every RN vessel or support vessel as far as I can make out, they don't interfere with you if you don't interfere with them. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by LadyG

[Ray T]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Visiting the Submarines (where were were chased by soldiers in a 'rubber dinghy wearing black wetsuits, masks and holding machine guns)

 

As a side, a group of us were sailing a charter yacht out of Southampton water during the Trafalgar 200 celebrations, I was on the helm. 

Somewhere in the east channel we were approached by similar atired gentlemen in a rib. I was asked if I knew there was a exclusion zone in place as we were getting close to the boundary. 

I said the charter company had briefly said there was a zone but gave me no coordinates they said just keep clear. One of the occupants suggested I bare away now.

 

I idly asked what would happen if I didn't, the reply went something along the lines of, The boat will be impounded, You as skipper will face a £5,000 fine and 6 months in jail. The crew would also be fined £2,000 each.

 

I apologised and said I was a "Sunday Sailor" and smartley bore away.

As a parting shot the gent I was conversing with said "Your boat is nicely rigged though." 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fleet_Review_2005

 

http://www.britainsnavy.co.uk/Fleet Review/Trafalgar 200 Fleet Review.htm

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Ray T

[Murflynn]

58 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Read my post, it clearly states hole in the hull. Please just get on with your own life and I'll get on with mine.

There is a no go zone round several areas on the Clyde, I think its on the paper charts, almanacs, and Notices to Mariners when exercises are being carried out.

They will chase off people who ignore the no go zones, and also folks who don't read the signs where they berth, the crew a wear a casual uniform on deck in harbour, but balaclavas, dark clothing, and shrouded machine guns on their RIBS. 

Someone is always on watch 24/7 on every RN vessel or support vessel as far as I can make out, they don't interfere with you if you don't interfere with them. 

............  and when a submarine surfaces in the middle of the English Channel VERY close to your boat (there is or was a huge area marked "submarine exercise area" on the charts, which effectively meant travelling from Devon to Normandy could not be done without risk) because he can't see (through his periscope) a small wooden or GRP boat tossing about in the waves, it doesn't help that they have a 24/7 watch.  Several experienced yachtsmen in Dartmouth had exactly that experience.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

There is a no go zone round several areas on the Clyde, I think its on the paper charts, almanacs, and Notices to Mariners when exercises are being carried out.

They will chase off people who ignore the no go zones, and also folks who don't read the signs where they berth, the crew a wear a casual uniform on deck in harbour, but balaclavas, dark clothing, and shrouded machine guns on their RIBS. 

Someone is always on watch 24/7 on every RN vessel or support vessel as far as I can make out, they don't interfere with you if you don't interfere with them. 

This was not a Zonal infringement, this was a speeding 'problem'.

 

When asked where the speed limit was 'posted' they could not, they could not even tell me what the speed limit was supposed to be, or, what speed I was doing -  it was not marked on any NtoM's, in the almanac, on the charts, not marked on the entrance to the Loch - not marked anywhere.

At the end of the 'interview' they agreed that it was not an official speed limit but a 'local rule'.

 

I think really what they wanted to do was chase us up the loch, with us doing 25 knts and them doing 25.1 knots and just have a bit of fun.

Nothing ever came of it, but it certainly was heading towards brown trouser time with the threats they were making.

 

[bizzard]

Beware of hidden piles too. Lots about on inland waters and off beaches. I set sail once in my old Jack Holt Explorer in a bad squal; to rescue a couple of friends who'd capsized a Javelin in the Thames estuary off Southen pier. We weren't reefed down, very boisterous, big se too. We sailed up to them and shouted to them, I can only make one pass if you want to be taken off. We're ok they shouted back, we''ll sit it out hanging on to it until the wind drops, they both had wet suits on. We dashed past at high speed with a westerly gale behind us trying to edge in bit by bit back to the shore. We were blown towards Shoeburyness and coming closer to the shore hit something hard which shook all the nails up on our foredeck and the deck broke up. Me managed to beach it on a big wave. We had clobbered a hidden pile, a busted bit the end of a breakwater. The club I belonged to was the Halfway yacht club, I called it the Halfwit yacht club, members of which had been watching our progress through binoculars, coupled up a trailer and raced along the boulivard to help us out and bring our boat back to the boat club. When we got back the two chaps we hadn't rescued were sitting in the clubhouse, showered changed and drinking whiskey Macs and laughed at us, saying some big gin palace boat had towed then to shore, they had badly bent the Javelins mast though, that was the crews fault though, too heavy, hanging out on the trapeze in a strong gale.

 My other experience of a ''Hidden pile'' was on the Norfolk Broads in a hired traditional wooden sailing cruiser with which we hire a small gunter rigged sailing dinghy. We moored

 

overnight opposide the pub at Stokesby on the Bure, woke up next morning to find the dinghy sunk. It had come down on a sharp bit of hidden pile as the tide dropped a bit. We dragged it ashore and phoned the boat yard at Martham who brought out another dinghy for us. Very slow and methodical workers they were but got a move on when we bought them a pint each.

   Watch out for hidden piles or any signs of them being about, they're wicked things.