Lumpy water living

[tehmarks]

1 hour ago, MoominPapa said:

Our  cap'n did seem to spend an awful lot of dosh on rigging and sails and antifouling and watermakers and satphones and servicing winches and overnights in marinas and liferafts and lifejackets that set off alarms when you fell in and charts, etc etc etc.

I obviously can't speak for sailing specifically, but I view one-off expenses and long-lifetime items differently to annual running and maintenance costs. I don't mind big headline costs if you can amortise the cost over a reasonable period — which sails, standing rigging and technology would hopefully fall into. Living on boats is expensive regardless — we all know this — but I'm not convinced that lumpy water boats cost more than ditch-crawling boats when it comes down to the regular maintenance and running costs.
 

Like with climbing — people see how much protection and ropes cost, and deduce that climbing is a really expensive hobby only open to those who have a lot of disposable income. My 'rack' (set of protection) cost probably about £800 — but the life expectancy of most gear is in the region of ten years if you don't lose it beforehand, and it was accrued gradually over quite a few years as I needed it and could afford it. The bare minimum will set you back maybe £300, give or take, rope included. Ropes can be expensive too —£100-200 for 50-60m — but the average person will easily get five years out of a rope, and you can easily get out with an indoor-oriented 30m rope that will set you back £50 and be indestructible. The biggest expense is probably actually shoes, and you go through shoes at the same rate regardless of whether you climb on rock or only indoors. Beyond that, once you have the gear it's just the cost of getting places to use it.

 

38 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

...you don't NEED anything different to an inland boat - except a definate need for an anchor and a lifejacket.

You need a watertight hull, a reliable engine and somewhere to cook and sleep.

 

...

 

You can do it on a £10k boat or a £1m boat.

Couldn't agree more. I'm quite a frugal and minimalistic person by nature. I've never felt a need for creature comforts or excess space, and I've lived or slept in some pretty alternative settings in my relatively short lifetime. In a lorry trailer converted into four rooms with a touring circus, in my tent for long periods of time, bivying on glaciers in the mountains, etc. In some respects, that's why boats appeal to me to begin with.

Edited November 17, 2020 by tehmarks

[mrsmelly]

Sea sickness is an unknown to many who havnt been there. I found when racing the 36 foot nicholson I used to take over the channel that in a swell I could get a bit queezy but for instance in the arctic circle in winter in a hurricane force ( fantastic ) on the ship in my avatar I was not unwell at all even though unless you have been there you simply cannot comprehend how rough it was. Some blokes used to be sea sick every time they left harbour poor sods.

Edited November 17, 2020 by mrsmelly

[Alan de Enfield]

This is a 1904 ex-open lifeboat that was converted to a sailing boat just afetr WW1.

It is immaculate and will be coming up for sale next year.

 

 

[bizzard]

27 minutes ago, LadyG said:

He did,but he knew what he was doing, read up all the old books, starting with Slocum, his boat Spray lives on today, a classic design. see Emerald Steel on youtube, they build their own boat and set off to sail the world, things have changed, but one thing that has not is safety and comfort, common sense. Your g'friend is not going to br converted, particularly as you are no Tom Cuncliffe.

Sir Francis Chichesters boat Gypsy Moth 1V is still on display in permanent dry dock next to rhe Cutty Sark in Greenwich.  Named after his bi plane a De Havilland Moth. I think it was which had the Gypsy 4 engine, fore runner of the De-Havilland Tiger Moth. I can't remember the whole story of his exploits in it or on it, but he did attempt to fly it around the world I believe. A stint from Australia to New Zealand hampered the attempt when attempting to land on St Johns island midway point when his undercarriage caught on some telegraugh cables stretched across between two cliff's which sent him plumeting to the ground. He survived that and spent months and months repairing the plane with local help  an eventually flew on and reached New Zealand. I can't remember the rest of the story, I'll have to find and read his book again.

[bizzard]

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is a 1904 ex-open lifeboat that was converted to a sailing boat just afetr WW1.

It is immaculate and will be coming up for sale next year.

 

 

That would sail horribly on any point upwind unless they fitted decent big bilge keels or a nice big retractable centre plate, otherwise it would sail faster sideways than forwards.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, bizzard said:

That would sail horribly on any point upwind unless they fitted decent big bilge keels or a nice big retractable centre plate, otherwise it would sail faster sideways than forwards.

She has Bilge keels (you can just see them in this 'zoomed in' picture as she is on the hard behind us.

 

She has sailed around much of the UK and Ireland and they seem to get on very well with her.

 

 

 

 

[tehmarks]

@Alan de Enfield: that is a beautiful (and very individual) boat!

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, tehmarks said:

@Alan de Enfield: that is a beautiful (and very individual) boat!

He is an absolute perfectionist, you wouldn't know it was wooden, you can occasionally see the planks if the sunlight hits is correctly. The deck was made from the decking recovered off the Mersey Ferry and the rear deck is as smooth and shiney as glass.

He has the full history of it as a 'rowed life boat'.

[sailor0500]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is a 1904 ex-open lifeboat that was converted to a sailing boat just afetr WW1.

It is immaculate and will be coming up for sale next year.

 

 

Where is she lying?  Price range please.

[Ray T]

Me, I didn't even entertain skippering a yacht until I had my Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate of Competence beneath my belt.

 

Have a good look at the experience required for the various level of qualifications.

https://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/Pages/hub.aspx

 

By following the RYA curriculum you get both knowledge and experience.

 

Remember unlike a narrowboat if things get iffy when in mid channel it is no good saying I don't like this I'm pulling in to make a cup of tea.

At least with a narrow boat you put your glass of wine on the slide it stays there unlike an offshore yacht where it immediately leaps overboard. 

 

May I suggest you try skippered cruises before you take a leap of buying a yacht. e.g.

 

https://www.yachtforce.co.uk/all-in-skippered-charter-holidays-2020/

 

https://www.yacht-charter.co.uk/charter/skippered-charter/

Edited November 17, 2020 by Ray T

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, sailor0500 said:

Where is she lying?  Price range please.

No idea on price, he only said when were were having the lift out that he was going to let her go next year and concentratre on his other boats.

 

Currently North Wales coast nr Caernarfon on the hard, will be lifted back in around 'Easter' time.

[sailor0500]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No idea on price, he only said when were were having the lift out that he was going to let her go next year and concentratre on his other boats.

 

Currently North Wales coast nr Caernarfon on the hard, will be lifted back in around 'Easter' time.

Is that Dickies or Scott Metcalfs or Dinas boatyard/ 20 years since I lived aboard on the Menai Straits.

[tehmarks]

7 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Remember unlike a narrowboat if things get iffy when in mid channel it is no good saying I don't like this I'm pulling in to make a cup of tea.

Somewhat the same with an aeroplane (or halfway up the side of a pointy lump of granite in the Alps in a storm) — though in the aeroplane (and on the mountain in the storm) you truly are alone. It's a concept I'm familiar and comfortable with, and not having suicidal tendencies, I don't plan on getting ahead of myself or my lack of experience too soon! But one needs to start somewhere with their grand ambitions...

 

?

[bizzard]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

She has Bilge keels (you can just see them in this 'zoomed in' picture as she is on the hard behind us.

 

She has sailed around much of the UK and Ireland and they seem to get on very well with her.

 

 

 

 

Ah yes I see them thanks, not original, the lifeboat would have had just thin shallow long ones, just to damp a bit of rolling with cut out handholds in case it capsized, like coach roof handholds upside down  It's certainly a beautiful conversion though.  I converted one, an ex P&O wooden one, 30ft long. hot branded on a rib was ''To save 86 blives'' I set out on a voyage from Leigh-On-Sea in it, away across the entrance of Benfleet creek and promptly ran aground on Canvey point because the rudder fell off,  we went to the pub instead and drank lager, all they seem to sell on Canvey. I cobbled up a jury rudder out of an old plank I found in a dyke to get us back to Leigh. I didn't covert it to sail though. I stuck a Chrysler Crown petrol TVO engine in it.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, sailor0500 said:

Is that Dickies or Scott Metcalfs or Dinas boatyard/ 20 years since I lived aboard on the Menai Straits.

Y Felinheli. Porth Dinorwic

 

 

We are there as well in the old slate loading dock.

 

 

[sailor0500]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Y Felinheli. Porth Dinorwic

 

 

We are there as well in the old slate loading dock.

 

 

Thanks. I know it well. Would be an interesting boat to look at.

[Mad Harold]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Sir Francis Chichesters boat Gypsy Moth 1V is still on display in permanent dry dock next to rhe Cutty Sark in Greenwich.  Named after his bi plane a De Havilland Moth. I think it was which had the Gypsy 4 engine, fore runner of the De-Havilland Tiger Moth. I can't remember the whole story of his exploits in it or on it, but he did attempt to fly it around the world I believe. A stint from Australia to New Zealand hampered the attempt when attempting to land on St Johns island midway point when his undercarriage caught on some telegraugh cables stretched across between two cliff's which sent him plumeting to the ground. He survived that and spent months and months repairing the plane with local help  an eventually flew on and reached New Zealand. I can't remember the rest of the story, I'll have to find and read his book again.

I read his book many years ago.Two house moves and it has been lost somewhere.If memory serves,it was called "The Lonely Sea and Sky"

His aeroplane was a Gypsy Moth,the forerunner of the Tiger Moth.The Gypsy Moth had the upright four inline De Haviland engine,the later Tiger Moth had the inverted 130 hp Gypsy Major engine.I once owned an Auster AOP 6 with the 145hp Gypsy Major engine.Seven gallons of fuel per hour and two pints of oil.Expensive to run,but a lovely old engine and a wonderful aeroplane to fly,except the Auster is a sod to land neatly.

If I remember correctly,he flew into wires when taking off from Japan.

As a one time pilot,I found my hair standing on end reading some of his exploits,especially flying so low over the sea to enable him to take a sextant reading and having sea spray in his face.

Doing that in a lightweight aircraft low down,controlling the aircraft and using a sextant at the same time takes supreme skill.He set off on his flying trip shortly after he learned to fly,but he became a skilled pilot very quickly!

All this before his sailing records.

He really was a one off.

[bizzard]

34 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

I read his book many years ago.Two house moves and it has been lost somewhere.If memory serves,it was called "The Lonely Sea and Sky"

His aeroplane was a Gypsy Moth,the forerunner of the Tiger Moth.The Gypsy Moth had the upright four inline De Haviland engine,the later Tiger Moth had the inverted 130 hp Gypsy Major engine.I once owned an Auster AOP 6 with the 145hp Gypsy Major engine.Seven gallons of fuel per hour and two pints of oil.Expensive to run,but a lovely old engine and a wonderful aeroplane to fly,except the Auster is a sod to land neatly.

If I remember correctly,he flew into wires when taking off from Japan.

As a one time pilot,I found my hair standing on end reading some of his exploits,especially flying so low over the sea to enable him to take a sextant reading and having sea spray in his face.

Doing that in a lightweight aircraft low down,controlling the aircraft and using a sextant at the same time takes supreme skill.He set off on his flying trip shortly after he learned to fly,but he became a skilled pilot very quickly!

All this before his sailing records.

He really was a one off.

Yes, that was the book, 2/3rds of it was about his flying exploits the second third was about his Gypsy Moth 1V voyage around the world. Just remembered the island between Australia and New Zealand where he catapulted off the telegraph cables was Lord Howe island.  Yes the Gypsy 6 engine two of which also went into the De-Haviland Dragon Rapide 8 seater  bi plane. Years ago I went up on joy flights in one from Lands End airport Cornwall.    Chich was a cartographer by trade, in partnership with someone but abandoned him and bu--gered of to fly around the world in the pretence that he was mapping it, but I don't think he did.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by bizzard

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mad Harold said:

I once owned an Auster AOP 6 with the 145hp Gypsy Major engine.Seven gallons of fuel per hour and two pints of oil.Expensive to run,but a lovely old engine and a wonderful aeroplane to fly,except the Auster is a sod to land neatly.

Indeed the Auster was not the easiset and a slightly heavy landing resulted in the 'bungee' snapping.

Here is ours after a slightly heavy landing (note that the Port side wheel has collapsed and is on a trailer)

 

 

1977 with an old 'instamatic' camera.

 

 

[bizzard]

When a kid I built an Auster from a Keil Kraft balsa wood kit, elastic band powered, although the instructions with such propulsion called it, ''Rubber Duration''. My first trial flight was doomed as I in my excitment wound the propellor and the rubber band the wrong way, as in great glee I tossed it into the air and it promptly flew backwards and struck me in the face, it didn't land nicely either.

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, tehmarks said:

Rigged sensibly, would it be feasible for said fit young person to learn to and cope with single-handing a ~36-40’ yacht, or do I need to be thinking shorter?

An experienced sailor could handle a 40' yacht single handed on long passages if it is set up properly, but 40' is big if things go wrong. We've sailed from Scotland to the med (in a 40 footer) and lived there for  3 years and saw many single handers in our travels. 30' is an ideal size for single handing but then long passages in a 30' can be uncomfortable - and we decided never to do the Scotland east coast to west round the top (via Orkney) in anything less than 35' after a number of trips on smaller boats. If you are thinking of taking a boat down to the med, then I would be going as big as possible but if single handing then not as big as 40'. That leave 35' to be the ideal.

Costs will be expensive if crusing the med and stopping in marinas. I can remember being asked for £120 for night on Scilly in peak season (in Medina IIRC).....and that was 12 years ago!

I'd be aiming to get a Yachtmaster before you think about heading to the med.

My advice...join a local sailing club and go racing. You will very quickly learn how to sail a boat and that should get you crewing on longer trips. ......then buy your own boat. Its bloodly cold living on a grp cruiser in the UK......far warmer on a sewer tube with a nice stove.

 

[sailor0500]

I cruised and lived abourd my last yacht for 15 years betweem W Coast of Scotland and La Rochelle in France, always single handed.. I found 33ft was an ideal size single handed if you really want to sail and not motor sail as so many do now. Only used the engine for entering port but had to keep out of marinas as I was sailing on a budget of £4000 a year. If you want to sail cheaply you must learn to use your anchor and only sail between anchorages. It can be done but is not easy and most single handers I know are marina hoppers.

Before that I lived on and singlehanded my Twister 28 around the Scottish and Irish coasts for three years. A bit small but a good sea boat. You just have to learn minimalist sailing.

Don't worry about te RYA thing. Find a good skipper to crew for, and get experience. Also try and get a copy of Annie Hills book " Voyaging on a small income." She inspired me and made me realize that real cruising is still possible.

Edited November 17, 2020 by sailor0500

[Alan de Enfield]

43 minutes ago, sailor0500 said:

If you want to sail cheaply you must learn to use your anchor and only sail between anchorages.

Living on the hook can be done but it is nice to pop into a marina once in a while and have a shower, meal, chat and refuel and top off the water.

It'll be about £25 -£35 per night (for our 38 foot Catamaran) and some of the marina faciities are excellent.

The Marina in Plymouth we 'pop into' has a full bathroom (shower, bath toilet and basin') for each visting boat, a nice restaurant on site, chandlery and engineering services. You can of course go a few miles out of Plymouth to (say) Rame Head and drop the hook (subject to weather and wind direction) for a few days.

We had a Summer based on the Swinging moorings at Torpoint which was great as a simple call on the VHF and the water taxi (covered in your mooring fee) came and picked you up and took you back to the boat "on demand"

 

Having dogs (now just the one) does restrict the use of swinging moorings / anchorage, but you just have to get used to taking them ashore 3 or 4 times  a day in the dinghy.

 

We are looking at possibly moving the Cat up the West coast and maybe having next Summer around Anglesey and taking a swinging mooring in the Menai as a 'base'. Its only about 12 hours over to Ireland or the IoM so the cruising options are good.

 

Whilst we had the Cruiser in Holyhead (before the big storm) it was only 2 1/2 hours at 25 knots to Ireland or IoM and we used to keep going and cruising up around the West coast of Scotland, around Mull, Oban etc.

 

The Cat (38 foot x 23 foot beam) at Wells Next the Sea (Norfolk coast)

 

 

 

 

 

And the visitors mooring at Salcome - right in the middle of the 'motorway' with ferries crossing in front and behind and boats passing either side going in and out of the estuary.

 

 

 

 

And the visitors mooring at Spurn Point (Humber estuary) alongside the lifeboat. Watching all the Big RoRos and Tankers going past (there are two other 'big boats' going behind the RoRo)

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Richard10002]

8 minutes ago, sailor0500 said:

Don't worry about te RYA thing. 

I think I said this only a day or so ago, but it bears repeating:

 

I have been involved in sailing/boating since before I could walk, or so I am told. I reached the dizzy heights of 3rd Officer with a merchant shipping line, and have sailed as a hobby since my late teens, mostly around Wales, and across the Irish Sea until 2006.

 

In 2006 I bought my own boat, (Moody 44), and did the RYA Inland Waterways Helmsmans Course to give my wife some idea on calm water. I also did the RYA Diesel Engine Course. Then I sailed it to Lagos, Portugal, where I stayed for a while, and did the RYA Yachtmaster Prep. Course and exam, in 2007. I think I put 12,000 miles on the Yachtmaster questionnaire, with several thousand as skipper, (could have been more in both cases?). Then went on to Malta in late 2007, and back to Glasson Dock in 2009.

 

In the 2 RYA boating courses I learned tons of stuff that I definitely didn't know, and which would have been extremely useful had I done them at the earliest opportunity, (30 years earlier  ). Ditto the engine course. We don't get to turn the clock back those 30 years  

 

So I have the opposite view to you. Do the whole RYA thing as soon as possible. You might learn to get by on other peoples boats, or with experienced friends on your own boat, but there is nothing quite like the speed and structure of the RYA courses.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Do the whole RYA thing as soon as possible. You might learn to get by on other peoples boats, or with experienced friends on your own boat, but there is nothing quite like the speed and structure of the RYA courses.

I'd liken it to a 'pal' teaching you to drive and passing on all his bad habits, shortcuts and dangerous practices. The professional Driving instructor will teach you the correct and safe way of doing things in a structured manner, and, none of this, "O I forget to mention the other day when we were practicing .........................."