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BD3Bill

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Long time no post. 

So I read with interest that by 2050 All boats must by zero emissions.

I am 54. With that in mind as a live aboard, I could still be around. With an old boat worth very little just when a nest egg might be handy.

I like future proof. Conversions won’t get cheaper. 

 

So my question to the panel is.... could I use my BD3 engine to power a big KW/Kva genset ? Electric motor for propulsion, big battery bank obvs.  

 

Doubtless charging stations will miraculously appear all along the moorings and towing paths..... or not. 

Who knows how battery technology will develop in the next 30 years. Elton Mush , or whatever his stupid name is, will have used the worlds supply of Lithium shortly. 

Am I on the right track here or do we think generation of ones own electricity will be outlawed too? 

 

Discuss....😁

Edited by BD3Bill

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If you are going to generate lots of  electricity I would do it at 440V 3 phase and drive an electric motor through a Variable Frequency drive.  Well established industrial route with lots of kit about.  You could also have an all electric boat, if you can make the genny quiet enough.

  I would want to  fit a 3 phase input battery charger,  to be driven by the generator.  Again industrial kit is available.

The battery would drive the motor through a 3 phase inverter drive. There is industrial kit about  but you would need to pick the battery voltage to match the inverters DC section or you  adapt the drive controls from an EV.

Plus as much solar as I could get on, and a shore power charger for when I could get mains.

N

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I too have similar ideas, but being a little older I was not actually worrying about the 2050 proposals.

I would like to have boat with a Travel Power or similar generator set up, but then I thought why not go further and have Hybrid.

Working in Taipei, almost all taxis are hybrid here and they even have Teslas as taxis too, so electric propulsion of some form or other is very viable.

 

Having a diesel Generator , big bank of batteries, loads of solar and an electric motor will not solve the 2050 zero emission issues but it would go a long way to killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

 

So far I have only pushed the idea round on a bit of paper, thinking about having the soundproofed Generator offset to one side and the battery bank on the other with the propulsion motor obviously in the middle.

What size of Generator, what size electric motor and what voltage, how many AH batteries?

I am thinking 15 Kw Genny, 15 Kw prop motor and 60 Volts and around 1000 AH, but I am sure there are others who have better ideas.

 

Then looking at all these hybrid cars and thinking of 'Elton Mush' I thought...what happens to the batteries out of the crashed cars, are they a viable source of power?

Is there a way of getting hold of them, managing and charging them for a NB propulsion and storage system maybe.

 

Thinking, and then wondering about the conversion costs and the magic controllers it would all need.

 

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18 minutes ago, BEngo said:

If you are going to generate lots of  electricity I would do it at 440V 3 phase and drive an electric motor through a Variable Frequency drive.  Well established industrial route with lots of kit about.  You could also have an all electric boat, if you can make the genny quiet enough.

  I would want to  fit a 3 phase input battery charger,  to be driven by the generator.  Again industrial kit is available.

The battery would drive the motor through a 3 phase inverter drive. There is industrial kit about  but you would need to pick the battery voltage to match the inverters DC section or you  adapt the drive controls from an EV.

Plus as much solar as I could get on, and a shore power charger for when I could get mains.

N

What you're describing is a series hybrid, where you need a diesel engine and a generator and a motor all rated at the highest bhp/kW needed to be able to sustain power on things like an upriver cruise, all of which is a bulky and very expensive solution -- especially the electrical systems.

 

For boats -- and narrowboats in particular -- the consensus is that a parallel hybrid is a better solution since you only need one motor/generator rated at a fraction (typically about a quarter) of the diesel power, and one which is smaller, much cheaper and easier to fit into a narrowboat. The battery bank and inverter can provide all the onboard AC power needed.

 

Here's one analysis, admittedly from a company which has successfully installed many narrowboat hybrid systems (there's a clue there), but others have reached similar conclusions.

 

https://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/index.php/hybrid-info/which-hybrid-is-best

 

Series hybrids have been proposed and even tried out on narrowboats (e.g. Fischer-Panda) but have not been either common or successful.

 

There might be a clue here... 😉

Edited by IanD
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Thats not really in the spirit of the law so might be outlawed, but it would be good, run the engine hard for a short time to charge the batteries. How expensive will diesel become?

But really there are bigger issues here, you could still easily still be boating at 70 which is 2035, will we even have a canal system? We likely will but it will be declining. CRT will not install electricity infrastructure so boating will start to decline as people decide its no longer worth investing in a brand new boat. With boating declining CRT will decide its not worth spending so much on maintaining the canals, the cyclists will take over. The only question is will the water remain for its wildlife and aesthetic appeal, or will it be tarmaced over to make bigger cycleways.

 

The canal next to me is now likely closed all winter as a small failure can not be fixed for some reason, but CRT are putting a lot of effort into the towpath, specifically removing items that cause inconvenience (slowing down) to cyclists.

 

..................Dave

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For the last 3 years smaller canals in France have struggled with low water or just closed for months. Same in Belgium, even the Rhine has been low. That is probably climate change, last year we suffered in plus 40 deg heat on the boat for day after day. That is going to be the problem.

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5 minutes ago, dmr said:

CRT will decide its not worth spending so much on maintaining the canals, the cyclists will take over.

 

By golly you've solved it!  Install unpowered Travelator / conveyor belts along the towpath with an alternator in the end rollers, then let the lycra louts pedal as fast as they want ... :D 

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6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

By golly you've solved it!  Install unpowered Travelator / conveyor belts along the towpath with an alternator in the end rollers, then let the lycra louts pedal as fast as they want ... :D 

Or, drain canal, install powered Travelator / conveyor belts  (one going each way) along the canal bed, power travelator by whatever means is acceptable.

 

May be difficult for fat boats as they may find half the boat is going forwards and half going backwards.

 

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I'll keep saying this, CRT do not want boats on the canals. If they could get rid of boats without having to worry (do crt worry about anything?) about the 15,000 or so people who live on the canals they would do it tomorrow IMO. I'm off the canals now but was only ever a liesure boater. I look after someone else's boat and I get the use of that occasionally but she pays. I had an enjoyable 10 years but I'm so so glad that I am in bricks and mortar.

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I do know that a company briefly investigated very small wind turbines at the side of the road to generate power from the airflow from passing traffic, I think a system to power motorway traffic cone lights was produced. Some cyclists do go very fast so maybe a scheme like that would work.

 

I suspect a lot of cyclists, especially up North, are cycling to keep fit and get stronger, surely pulling boats along on a rope would be a welcome challenge for them?

 

..................Dave

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

I suspect a lot of cyclists, especially up North, are cycling to keep fit and get stronger, surely pulling boats along on a rope would be a welcome challenge for them?

 

You'd need to work the Rochdale locks faster than I can if you've got a 20mph 2 wheeled 'oss tied to the boat.

 

Tell 'em it's a triathlon variant - cycle to pull the boat, run to do the locks and if they sulk they'll be swimming :D

 

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5 hours ago, BD3Bill said:

 

So my question to the panel is.... could I use my BD3 engine to power a big KW/Kva genset ? Electric motor for propulsion, big battery bank obvs.  

 

Doubtless charging stations will miraculously appear all along the moorings and towing paths..... or not. 

Who knows how battery technology will develop in the next 30 years. Elton Mush , or whatever his stupid name is, will have used the worlds supply of Lithium shortly. 

 

I've recently got a Tesla. Wonderful car. Cheap to run. 4 secs to 60mph. Never a problem pulling out into the outside lane of a motorway. Very very easy to find charging stations on long runs.

My plan is when it gets a bit older is to crane it on to the roof of our bote and connect the batteries up to the engine and sort out a way of diverting the drive to propel it forward. Shouldnt be too difficult.

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5 hours ago, MarkH2159 said:

I too have similar ideas, but being a little older I was not actually worrying about the 2050 proposals.

I would like to have boat with a Travel Power or similar generator set up, but then I thought why not go further and have Hybrid.

Working in Taipei, almost all taxis are hybrid here and they even have Teslas as taxis too, so electric propulsion of some form or other is very viable.

 

Having a diesel Generator , big bank of batteries, loads of solar and an electric motor will not solve the 2050 zero emission issues but it would go a long way to killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

 

So far I have only pushed the idea round on a bit of paper, thinking about having the soundproofed Generator offset to one side and the battery bank on the other with the propulsion motor obviously in the middle.

What size of Generator, what size electric motor and what voltage, how many AH batteries?

I am thinking 15 Kw Genny, 15 Kw prop motor and 60 Volts and around 1000 AH, but I am sure there are others who have better ideas.

 

Then looking at all these hybrid cars and thinking of 'Elton Mush' I thought...what happens to the batteries out of the crashed cars, are they a viable source of power?

Is there a way of getting hold of them, managing and charging them for a NB propulsion and storage system maybe.

 

Thinking, and then wondering about the conversion costs and the magic controllers it would all need.

 

There are a few hydraulic drive boats with a remote offset engine so you are only swapping the hydraulics with electrics, which if well done are maybe more efficient.

 

I agree you need a 15kW motor, but i would say 30kW, lots of people say a much smaller electric motor is ok/you only need a few kW for cruising, but its just not true, there are many cases where a LOT of power is needed.

 

There is already a company taking batteries out of crashed/scrapped electric cars and doing systems to convert classic cars to electric power. I think a LOT of amp-hours of batteries would be needed.

 

.................Dave.

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4 hours ago, pete.i said:

I'll keep saying this, CRT do not want boats on the canals. If they could get rid of boats without having to worry (do crt worry about anything?) about the 15,000 or so people who live on the canals they would do it tomorrow IMO. I'm off the canals now but was only ever a liesure boater. I look after someone else's boat and I get the use of that occasionally but she pays. I had an enjoyable 10 years but I'm so so glad that I am in bricks and mortar.

Whist my chances of being around in 2050 are about as good as Trump winning the 2020 election. (that's the cleaned up version) I very much doubt if canals will exist in anything approaching the present form. Reducing depths can be countered to a degree by reducing draught, propulsion by adopting electricity but what about locks and many bridgeholes.. No, canals by 2050 will be the domain of floating linear villages, fisherman and cyclists.   

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21 minutes ago, Slim said:

Whist my chances of being around in 2050 are about as good as Trump winning the 2020 election. (that's the cleaned up version) I very much doubt if canals will exist in anything approaching the present form. Reducing depths can be countered to a degree by reducing draught, propulsion by adopting electricity but what about locks and many bridgeholes.. No, canals by 2050 will be the domain of floating linear villages, fisherman and cyclists.   

........and just one working lock in a shed called a waterways museum 

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23 minutes ago, Slim said:

Whist my chances of being around in 2050 are about as good as Trump winning the 2020 election. (that's the cleaned up version) I very much doubt if canals will exist in anything approaching the present form. Reducing depths can be countered to a degree by reducing draught, propulsion by adopting electricity but what about locks and many bridgeholes.. No, canals by 2050 will be the domain of floating linear villages, fisherman and cyclists.   

In my experiences depth of the waterways is one of the thing that has improved over the last 50 years. It is important infrastucture like lock maintenance which has deteriorated.

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9 hours ago, PhilR said:

In my experiences depth of the waterways is one of the thing that has improved over the last 50 years. It is important infrastucture like lock maintenance which has deteriorated.

History is history. The last 50 years, whilst relevant to today has little bearing on the next 30. 

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31 minutes ago, Slim said:

History is history. The last 50 years, whilst relevant to today has little bearing on the next 30. 

 

"Previous results are no guarantee of future performance"

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10 hours ago, PhilR said:

In my experiences depth of the waterways is one of the thing that has improved over the last 50 years. 

Not on the Chesterfield, which is acclaimed as a wildlife canal, this last week I've seen a robin, a flock of redwing a few rooks, and a family of swans, so nothing very spectacular. Since mooring up the water level has dropped (lack of maintenance), I'm  pretty much aground at the moment, it's very much unplanned maintenance, wait 'til it's broke, and patch it, or not.

Personally I'm working through an eight year plan due to my current age, that will take me to the year 2026, I will re-assesss the situation then, though obviously looking around meantime. My circumstances have changed significantly in the last twenty years, there are no gaurantees, but I anticipate things will not improve much for the liveaboard. Once retired, one is essentially on a fixed income, unable to avoid the slings and arrows. Fifteen thousand voters have absolutely no clout, just ask the folks who are directly negatively affected by the HS2. 

Edited by LadyG

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16 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Not on the Chesterfield, which is acclaimed as a wildlife canal, this last week I've seen a robin, a flock of redwing a few rooks, and a family of swans, so nothing very spectacular.

Just because wildlife is mentioned it doesn't have to be spectacular or even noticeable.  Insects, spiders, plants (variety of/rarity) amphibians etc etc aren't noticeable or spectacular but are very definitely wildlife.   The sheer biodiversity may be enough to get a place "labelled".

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Employed some years ago using industrial components, the following was employed for an all-electric boat:

Diesel generator 22kVA, acoustic enclosure, 230 Volt 3 phase, delta, operating at constant speed, keel cooling and enclosure exhaust provide the necessary heat dump.

Inverter drive 18.5 kW, 230 Volt, 3 phase, speed control and direction via a small throttle lever.

Motor, 6 pole, 3phase delta connected. Prop shaft coupling through flexi coupling, no gearbox required, providing a stepless speed range from zero to 1000rpm or greater.

Surplus power available for cooking, washing machine, dryer, microwave, and ancillary loads.

To bring this system to date for a ‘hybrid’ solution, would require batteries connected to the inverter drive, providing a Voltage operating ‘window’ of 180 to 260 Volts, qty 22 lithium ion cells, at some cost, with a suitable 3 phase charging system. The operating window between batteries and the inverter drive could be optimized with a DC/ DC system. A system of solar power would complete the package, to include a robust shore supply.

The lower operating voltage would provide a system without the hazard of having 400 volts 3 phase, and all galley components would be standard domestic.

Whilst deviating from the original question, this provided a working system which may help in principal, with anyone planning a diesel electric boat.

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11 hours ago, dmr said:

There are a few hydraulic drive boats with a remote offset engine so you are only swapping the hydraulics with electrics, which if well done are maybe more efficient.

 

I agree you need a 15kW motor, but i would say 30kW, lots of people say a much smaller electric motor is ok/you only need a few kW for cruising, but its just not true, there are many cases where a LOT of power is needed.

 

There is already a company taking batteries out of crashed/scrapped electric cars and doing systems to convert classic cars to electric power. I think a LOT of amp-hours of batteries would be needed.

 

.................Dave.

Agreed Dave, hydraulic is possible but I just like the idea of having a bit of near silent propulsion and also using any input from Solar to get along for a bit for free.

Diesel electric has been the way in most other forms of transport, except cars for some reason.

Trains and many buses work very efficiently on it so why not a D/E Narrow boat?

 

I am not so keen on the hybrid set up that keeps the same old diesel and adds an electric motor to the shaft but it may prove to be the least costly route to take.

 

So the alternative could be with a Diesel Generator around 12 to 15 KW a charging system and a decent set of batteries that I can get at 48V and say 800 to 1000 AH

I think that the way to go is to get Lynch to show what is available and hopefully provide the kit for a DIY fit - https://lynchmotors.co.uk/

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Tractor said:

Employed some years ago using industrial components, the following was employed for an all-electric boat:

Diesel generator 22kVA, acoustic enclosure, 230 Volt 3 phase, delta, operating at constant speed, keel cooling and enclosure exhaust provide the necessary heat dump.

Inverter drive 18.5 kW, 230 Volt, 3 phase, speed control and direction via a small throttle lever.

Motor, 6 pole, 3phase delta connected. Prop shaft coupling through flexi coupling, no gearbox required, providing a stepless speed range from zero to 1000rpm or greater.

Surplus power available for cooking, washing machine, dryer, microwave, and ancillary loads.

To bring this system to date for a ‘hybrid’ solution, would require batteries connected to the inverter drive, providing a Voltage operating ‘window’ of 180 to 260 Volts, qty 22 lithium ion cells, at some cost, with a suitable 3 phase charging system. The operating window between batteries and the inverter drive could be optimized with a DC/ DC system. A system of solar power would complete the package, to include a robust shore supply.

The lower operating voltage would provide a system without the hazard of having 400 volts 3 phase, and all galley components would be standard domestic.

Whilst deviating from the original question, this provided a working system which may help in principal, with anyone planning a diesel electric boat.

This is missing the whole point is that "diesel-electric" (a series hybrid) doesn't make sense for narrowboats, a parallel hybrid is a much cheaper and more efficient solution that meets all the requirements. Read this, it's from a commercial hybrid supplier but the data is sound and supported by other sources:

 

https://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/index.php/hybrid-info/which-hybrid-is-best

 

This is precisely why there are plenty of parallel hybrid narrowboats out there and few (or no commercial? Fischer-Panda tried and failed...) series ones.

10 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

Agreed Dave, hydraulic is possible but I just like the idea of having a bit of near silent propulsion and also using any input from Solar to get along for a bit for free.

Diesel electric has been the way in most other forms of transport, except cars for some reason.

Trains and many buses work very efficiently on it so why not a D/E Narrow boat?

 

I am not so keen on the hybrid set up that keeps the same old diesel and adds an electric motor to the shaft but it may prove to be the least costly route to take.

 

So the alternative could be with a Diesel Generator around 12 to 15 KW a charging system and a decent set of batteries that I can get at 48V and say 800 to 1000 AH

I think that the way to go is to get Lynch to show what is available and hopefully provide the kit for a DIY fit - https://lynchmotors.co.uk/

 

 

Diesel-electric works on trains for very different reasons (the need for very high starting torque and full engine power at any wheel speed) which are not relevant to boats. It doesn't work in cars because it's heavy and far more expensive than the alternatives.

 

If you're going to have a diesel engine to power a generator then it might as well also be able to turn the prop -- also only needs one lower-power motor/generator not two expensive ones. And you have redundancy. And lots of other reasons -- see the above comparison.

Edited by IanD

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34 minutes ago, Tractor said:

Employed some years ago using industrial components, the following was employed for an all-electric boat:

Diesel generator 22kVA, acoustic enclosure, 230 Volt 3 phase, delta, operating at constant speed, keel cooling and enclosure exhaust provide the necessary heat dump.

Inverter drive 18.5 kW, 230 Volt, 3 phase, speed control and direction via a small throttle lever.

Motor, 6 pole, 3phase delta connected. Prop shaft coupling through flexi coupling, no gearbox required, providing a stepless speed range from zero to 1000rpm or greater.

Surplus power available for cooking, washing machine, dryer, microwave, and ancillary loads.

To bring this system to date for a ‘hybrid’ solution, would require batteries connected to the inverter drive, providing a Voltage operating ‘window’ of 180 to 260 Volts, qty 22 lithium ion cells, at some cost, with a suitable 3 phase charging system. The operating window between batteries and the inverter drive could be optimized with a DC/ DC system. A system of solar power would complete the package, to include a robust shore supply.

The lower operating voltage would provide a system without the hazard of having 400 volts 3 phase, and all galley components would be standard domestic.

Whilst deviating from the original question, this provided a working system which may help in principal, with anyone planning a diesel electric boat.

 

But where will you obtain the diesel from and what price will it be ?

 

From 2030 there will be no new Diesel or petrol cars manufactured, and from 2035 there will be no new diesel or petrol powered boats built.

As 'old vehicles and boats' die and are replaced by other means of propulsion the demand for petroleum products will be such that they will possibly becaome unavailable except in 'niche areas'.

 

Going into a shop with painted out windows,

Whispas ............Pssst, mate, got any diesel ? 

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