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[IanD]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Yes I am sure about it the man inspecting my boat did not want to see an engine with electric motor attached to it. I know Beta's engine has big alternators attached but it's not as good as Finesse with its system which incidentally will be using secondhand Nissan leaf battery packs to reduce its price. One is a proper system the other isn't which is why serial hybrids will win

An interesting use of the word "proper system" in the same sentence as "secondhand battery packs" ?

 

There's nothing inherently "more proper" about either a serial or a parallel hybrid; they're both expensive half-way solutions between a diesel engine and pure electric to get over the (short-term) charging problem. Neither will ever make it big-time for this reason, exactly the same as cars. Arguing which is better is like two bald men fighting over a comb...

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

An interesting use of the word "proper system" in the same sentence as "secondhand battery packs" ?

 

There's nothing inherently "more proper" about either a serial or a parallel hybrid; they're both expensive half-way solutions between a diesel engine and pure electric to get over the (short-term) charging problem. Neither will ever make it big-time for this reason, exactly the same as cars. Arguing which is better is like two bald men fighting over a comb...

It's a good use of a battery pack it will have a 10 year warranty so clearly its going to be checked over and refurbished 

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

From the licence T&C's

 

Electric Motor 25% discount if the Boat has an electric motor as its sole means of propulsion.

 

If it can be run directly from an engine then the discount is not allowed, the discount is only gtranted if the engine is directly connected to the batteries and the batteries to the electric motor and the motor to the shaft.

 

Any connection between engine and shaft means the 'SOLE means of propulsion' is not electric.

However I'm sure this has been brought up before, and there was an opinion that if you have an on-board generator to provide the energy to propel the boat, then the electric motor is not the "sole means of propulsion".

 

And I can guarantee that if many serial hybrids were sold CART would change to rules to take this into account, the intention is clearly to give the discount to boats which only depend on electricity and don't generate diesel fumes ?

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It's a good use of a battery pack it will have a 10 year warranty so clearly its going to be checked over and refurbished 

I bet you it won't have a ten-year warranty because even the new ones don't have that. Or if they do, it won't be worth the paper it's printed on after Finesse go bust ?

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

Just now, IanD said:

However I'm sure this has been brought up before, and there was an opinion that if you have an on-board generator to provide the energy to propel the boat, then the electric motor is not the "sole means of propulsion".

 

And I can guarantee that if many serial hybrids were sold CART would change to rules to take this into account, the intention is clearly to give the discount to boats which only depend on electricity and don't generate diesel fumes ?

They all have solar as well why not it's free energy and clean, summer time most wont need the gennys 

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They all have solar as well why not it's free energy and clean, summer time most wont need the gennys 

<sigh> so long as you don't go cruising for long don't use much AC power or have a widebeam, like you.

 

The numbers (provided several times, but you keep ignoring them) clearly show that solar on a narrowboat in summer takes about 2 days to provide enough energy for a day's cruising.

 

If that fits your requirements in summer, fine. Anyone who wants to get any distance from A to B or cruise in winter or most hire boats, not so fine, they need a genny or charging stations.

 

Solar is always a great idea, but it can't usually provide all the power needed for propulsion, except in special cases like yours.

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

<sigh> so long as you don't go cruising for long don't use much AC power or have a widebeam, like you.

 

The numbers (provided several times, but you keep ignoring them) clearly show that solar on a narrowboat takes about 2 days to provide enough energy for a day's cruising.

 

If that fits your requirements in summer, fine. Anyone who wants to get any distance from A to B or cruise in winter or most hire boats, not so fine, they need a genny or charging stations.

Ian its not going to happen CRT will be overjoyed if boats disappear so it will be serial hybrids and plenty of solar, its easy to retrofit and works plus for most it will work just on solar in the summer.  You are a hirer I understand that, CRT don't care if hire companies disappear its been happening for years anyway. IWA are asking for PowerPoints anyway but cant see  it happening after all they don't supply diesel do they? It's our problem not theirs and it always will be

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Ian its not going to happen CRT will be overjoyed if boats disappear so it will be serial hybrids and plenty of solar, its easy to retrofit and works plus for most it will work just on solar in the summer.  You are a hirer I understand that, CRT don't care if hire companies disappear its been happening for years anyway. IWA are asking for PowerPoints anyway but cant see  it happening after all they don't supply diesel do they? It's our problem not theirs and it always will be

Peter, you can't have it both ways. One minute you're saying that all that's needed is solar (no genny), now you say it isn't. Make your mind up, which is it?

 

plus for most it will work just on solar -- only if by "most" you mean "me". For people who want to move more than half the time, solar only doesn't work even in summer. The numbers don't lie.

 

Hybrids (both kinds) are a complex expensive low-volume stop-gap just like they are for cars. The vast majority of boats now are low-cost diesels, the vast majority in the future will be low-cost all-electric, just like for cars and for exactly the same reasons.

 

Boat hire companies -- not just on the canals, remember -- provide a lot of holidays for people and are not a tiny business overall, it's doubtful that either CART or the government would be happy if they disappeared.

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Peter, you can't have it both ways. One minute you're saying that all that's needed is solar (no genny), now you say it isn't. Make your mind up, which is it?

 

plus for most it will work just on solar -- only if by "most" you mean "me". For people who want to move more than half the time, solar only doesn't work even in summer. The numbers don't lie.

 

Hybrids (both kinds) are a complex expensive low-volume stop-gap just like they are for cars. The vast majority of boats now are low-cost diesels, the vast majority in the future will be low-cost all-electric, just like for cars and for exactly the same reasons.

If that's the case then like me they will be solar with hookup at marina and given that serial hybrids are selling I suspect you are wrong 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

If that's the case then like me they will be solar with hookup at marina and given that serial hybrids are selling I suspect you are wrong 

How do you move the boat more than two day's travelling time without either a genny/hybrid or charging points? Solar only is fine in summer for people who don't move, look at the power numbers.

 

Oh sorry, just spotted the words "like you" -- of course everyone is ?

 

How many (expensive) serial hybrids have actually been sold?

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

19 minutes ago, IanD said:

How do you move the boat more than two day's travelling time without either a genny/hybrid or charging points? Solar only is fine in summer for people who don't move, look at the power numbers.

 

How many (expensive) serial hybrids have actually been sold?

It doesn't matter Ian, the world wont end if you cant move daily, I don't and know plenty that are the same, it's a leisure pastime and that's how most view it. You are a hireboater and view it differently no doubt if hire companies want to exist they will like the broads make their boats serial hybrids and extend their lives 

As I have said pre99 out of the next 10 boats from finesse are serial hybrids, they have already sold a number of them 

Edited November 18, 2020 by peterboat

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It doesn't matter Ian, the world wont end if you cant move daily, I don't and know plenty that are the same, it's a leisure pastime and that's how most view it. You are a hireboater and view it differently no doubt if hire companies want to exist they will like the broads make their boats serial hybrids and extend their lives 

You're assuming that everyone (including hirers) changes their boating habits to be the same as yours. Why do you think they will do that?

 

Imagine you're a hire company and you have 2 choices because pure diesels are now banned:

 

1. Parallel hybrid -- extra cost over diesel 10k

2. Serial hybrid -- extra cost over diesel 20k

 

[no dodgy secondhand cells or homebrew systems, this has to use solid commercial gear]

 

Both meet the rules, and allow part-electric silent cruising, and appear identical to the end customer, so you can only hire either out for the same fee.

 

Which one do you choose?

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

You're assuming that everyone (including hirers) changes their boating habits to be the same as yours. Why do you think they will do that?

 

Imagine you're a hire company and you have 2 choices because pure diesels are now banned:

 

1. Parallel hybrid -- extra cost over diesel 10k

2. Serial hybrid -- extra cost over diesel 20k

 

[no dodgy secondhand cells or homebrew systems, this has to use solid commercial gear]

 

Both meet the rules, and allow part-electric silent cruising, and appear identical to the end customer, so you can only hire either out for the same fee.

 

Which one do you choose?

Parallel hybrids are banned under the rules, also parallel hybrids are about 20k anyway have a look and that's with useless LAs batteries! They will like the broads boats go with serial hybrids its already happened 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It doesn't matter Ian, the world wont end if you cant move daily,

Correct the world won't end.

 

However hire boating will become a much less attractive proposition. No hire boater I know wants to spend time moored up for ages while the boat charges up.

 

Hire boaters pay to go boating, not mooring.

 

Combined with the conversion costs I can see the switch killing off large parts of the hire boat industry. Some of course may see that as a good thing, until they realise of course the lost business licence revenue will have to be made up from somewhere, and guess where that will be from.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Correct the world won't end.

 

However hire boating will become a much less attractive proposition. No hire boater I know wants to spend time moored up for ages while the boat charges up.

 

Hire boaters pay to go boating, not mooring.

 

Combined with the conversion costs I can see the switch killing off large parts of the hire boat industry. Some of course may see that as a good thing, until they realise of course the lost business licence revenue will have to be made up from somewhere, and guess where that will be from.

Peter doesn't care, he's not a hire boater ?

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Parallel hybrids are banned under the rules, also parallel hybrids are about 20k anyway have a look and that's with useless LAs batteries! They will like the broads boats go with serial hybrids its already happened 

The current hybrid position is neither logical or possibly legally correct, if push came to shove I'm pretty sure that with a series hybrid an electric motor will not be found to be "the sole means of propulsion" because (some of) the propulsion power comes from a diesel, just like a parallel hybrid. The only real difference is that one uses a shaft to transfer power from the diesel to the prop and the other uses generator/cable/motor; both can run without the diesel, and use it to provide energy that can't be obtained from other sources like solar.

 

When CART get their act together they'll make the rules the same for both kinds, because they both do the same job and have the same impact on the environment -- the 25% discount is clearly intended for electric-only boats with no diesel engine. My bet is that a serial hybrid will have the discount removed, because this makes them money and adding parallel hybrids to the discount will lose them money.

 

I don't know where you get your figures from. A complete parallel hybrid *system* is about 20k, a conventional diesel + big battery bank + inverter is about 10k, so the PH costs 10k extra which is what I said. A serial hybrid with genny and high-power motor (e.g. Fischer-Panda) costs at least 10k more than a parallel one. Figures are based on actual costs from commercial suppliers.

 

You say flooded 2V LA batteries are useless, but there are parallel hybrids out there that have used them successfully for getting on for ten years -- and remind me again, how much does a new 40kWh LiFePO4 bank (800Ah/50V) cost?

 

Maybe narrowboats will go with serial hybrids in the short term, maybe not, I'll believe it when I see it because nobody knows yet. What is much more certain is that one way or another boats will go the same way as cars for exactly the same reasons, with hybrids being an expensive short-term gap-bridger for a few years until charging stations (marinas, boatyards...) are widespread and all-electric+solar takes over.

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

30 minutes ago, IanD said:

The current hybrid position is neither logical or possibly legally correct, if push came to shove I'm pretty sure that with a series hybrid an electric motor will not be found to be "the sole means of propulsion" because (some of) the propulsion power comes from a diesel, just like a parallel hybrid. The only real difference is that one uses a shaft to transfer power from the diesel to the prop and the other uses generator/cable/motor; both can run without the diesel, and use it to provide energy that can't be obtained from other sources like solar.

 

When CART get their act together they'll make the rules the same for both kinds, because they both do the same job and have the same impact on the environment -- the 25% discount is clearly intended for electric-only boats with no diesel engine. My bet is that a serial hybrid will have the discount removed, because this makes them money and adding parallel hybrids to the discount will lose them money.

 

I don't know where you get your figures from. A complete parallel hybrid *system* is about 20k, a conventional diesel + big battery bank + inverter is about 10k, so the PH costs 10k extra which is what I said. A serial hybrid with genny and high-power motor (e.g. Fischer-Panda) costs at least 10k more than a parallel one. Figures are based on actual costs from commercial suppliers.

 

You say flooded 2V LA batteries are useless, but there are parallel hybrids out there that have used them successfully for getting on for ten years -- and remind me again, how much does a new 40kWh LiFePO4 bank (800Ah/50V) cost?

 

Maybe narrowboats will go with serial hybrids in the short term, maybe not, I'll believe it when I see it because nobody knows yet. What is much more certain is that one way or another boats will go the same way as cars for exactly the same reasons, with hybrids being an expensive short-term gap-bridger for a few years until charging stations (marinas, boatyards...) are widespread and all-electric+solar takes over.

Ian I didn't make the rules CRT did, the emissions for boats was a government thing.  I have googled the hybrid conversion and 20 - 22K is the figures coming up so I know that finesses system is a similar price it's  a no brainer its better by design and has a fully managed system with proper batteries ones that will accept 5kw charging

The broads boats went this way for a reason its better and is fully automatic. 

Lastly generator, it can run emissions equipment because it will run at 1500 rpm and so a  catalyst DPF system will work unlike on a parallel system as it will never get hot enough. If they want cleaner an LPG genny is even cleaner. 

As you say hybrids are just a put on however it could be a put on for years!

Lastly this system could run on hydrogen a parallel system cant just replace the genny with fuel cells job done, although for me it's far from ideal but the motor and control gear is already there

 

[BD3Bill]

6 hours ago, David Mack said:

And just how much of a fortune does it cost? The ad fails to mention the subject.

I’m glad you asked ! Buying a 25 litre can works out at £3 per litre FOR WHITE version of EcoPar. They do do a Red , but let’s please NOT go there already! ?

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Ian I didn't make the rules CRT did, the emissions for boats was a government thing.  I have googled the hybrid conversion and 20 - 22K is the figures coming up so I know that finesses system is a similar price it's  a no brainer its better by design and has a fully managed system with proper batteries ones that will accept 5kw charging

The broads boats went this way for a reason its better and is fully automatic. 

Lastly generator, it can run emissions equipment because it will run at 1500 rpm and so a  catalyst DPF system will work unlike on a parallel system as it will never get hot enough. If they want cleaner an LPG genny is even cleaner. 

As you say hybrids are just a put on however it could be a put on for years!

Lastly this system could run on hydrogen a parallel system cant just replace the genny with fuel cells job done, although for me it's far from ideal but the motor and control gear is already there

 

I can read the rules too; the first point is the debate about exactly what "sole means of propulsion" means in the rules today, the second is that the rules can/will change if the exception starts losing CART a lot of license revenue for series hybrids, which might or might not meet the letter of the law but certainly don't meet the spirit of the law.

 

A (possibly short-lived) 25% license discount is therefore not a good reason to choose a series hybrid over a parallel one -- of course there may be other more valid reasons to choose one way or the other, including purchase cost (but probably not fuel saving, which is swamped by installation cost).

 

I'd love to see a cost breakdown showing how Finesse can do a full series hybrid with a new lithium battery bank (and inverter/charger) and a quiet 1500rpm diesel generator for 20k, because I don't believe it -- the generator alone would use up a large chunk of this budget. Do you have actual numbers?

 

If you think electricity distribution to charging points on the canals is a problem, try looking at hydrogen distribution and storage ?

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

45 minutes ago, IanD said:

I can read the rules too; the first point is the debate about exactly what "sole means of propulsion" means in the rules today, the second is that the rules can/will change if the exception starts losing CART a lot of license revenue for series hybrids, which might or might not meet the letter of the law but certainly don't meet the spirit of the law.

 

A (possibly short-lived) 25% license discount is therefore not a good reason to choose a series hybrid over a parallel one -- of course there may be other more valid reasons to choose one way or the other, including purchase cost (but probably not fuel saving, which is swamped by installation cost).

 

I'd love to see a cost breakdown showing how Finesse can do a full series hybrid with a new lithium battery bank (and inverter/charger) and a quiet 1500rpm diesel generator for 20k, because I don't believe it -- the generator alone would use up a large chunk of this budget. Do you have actual numbers?

 

If you think electricity distribution to charging points on the canals is a problem, try looking at hydrogen distribution and storage ?

Quick Google found gennys at over 4k plus vat silent gennys not fisha panda but still kubota engine or perkins water cooled. Stripped of the crap not needed they will be cheaper as built in fuel tank not allowed. 

Lpg ones even cheaper but air cooled, however immersion would give you hot water.

Their is a BSS for LPG engines on boats my mates Frank and Tony had some LPG powered narrowboats for hire at Whaley bridge. 

If I see Riccy tomorrow I will get details of his plans, I know that they have plans for their own gennys but don't know how far on they are.

I am not a hydrogen fan but the government seems very keen on it for me its place is for electric generation where its been made by surplus electricity from wind turbines 

Edited November 18, 2020 by peterboat

[BD3Bill]

This really is a very interesting discussion.

Thank you very much to the contributors, who resisted cycles and dragonflies. 

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Quick Google found gennys at over 4k plus vat silent gennys not fisha panda but still kubota engine or perkins water cooled. Stripped of the crap not needed they will be cheaper as built in fuel tank not allowed. 

Lpg ones even cheaper but air cooled, however immersion would give you hot water.

Their is a BSS for LPG engines on boats my mates Frank and Tony had some LPG powered narrowboats for hire at Whaley bridge. 

If I see Riccy tomorrow I will get details of his plans, I know that they have plans for their own gennys but don't know how far on they are

I didn't ask how much you could get a cheap genny for on ebay any more than how much you can buy cheap B-grade lithium cells on it.

 

You claimed that Finesse could provide a "proper" new full series hybrid (meaning, including lithium battery bank, inverter/charger, and 1500rpm diesel generator, nothing secondhand) for about 20k, the same as a parallel hybrid like Hybrid Marine built from all-new commercial-grade components -- in other words, a level playing field comparison.

 

I said I didn't believe that was possible, especially given generator cost.

 

Put up or shut up ?

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

29 minutes ago, IanD said:

I didn't ask how much you could get a cheap genny for on ebay any more than how much you can buy cheap B-grade lithium cells on it.

 

You claimed that Finesse could provide a "proper" new full series hybrid (meaning, including lithium battery bank, inverter/charger, and 1500rpm diesel generator, nothing secondhand) for about 20k, the same as a parallel hybrid like Hybrid Marine built from all-new commercial-grade components -- in other words, a level playing field comparison.

 

I said I didn't believe that was possible, especially given generator cost.

 

Put up or shut up ?

Ian it's not off, ebay plenty of 10kva super silent gennys around kubota and perkins both big names in the engine business linze alternator also big name you have to get over that parallel hybrids are done for! Also you will have to wait until I have talked to Ricky he is a large business and maybe doesn't want his prices and plans splashed everywhere!

[IanD]

13 hours ago, peterboat said:

Ian it's not off, ebay plenty of 10kva super silent gennys around kubota and perkins both big names in the engine business linze alternator also big name you have to get over that parallel hybrids are done for! Also you will have to wait until I have talked to Ricky he is a large business and maybe doesn't want his prices and plans splashed everywhere!

So here's your (or Finesse's) challenge then : come up with a "proper" series hybrid which does the same job as the parallel hybrid as far as the user is concerned, for the same cost (approx 20k).

 

Since you keep mentioning boats at Crick it has to be built from new commercial-grade components, and has to use 50V to stay within the low voltage directive:

 

1. 30kW water-cooled motor -- same power at prop as a Beta 43, needed for Ribble Link/Trent etc (see electric boat thread)

2. 30kW motor controller (600A/50V)

3. new 40kWh (800Ah/50V) LiFePO4 battery (or matched grade A cells) from a reputable manufacturer/supplier

4. "proper" commercial BMS system -- protection, charge control, monitoring, balancing

5. 6kVA (minimum) quiet known-name 1500rpm diesel generator -- 6kW gives same charging time as parallel hybrid at 10kW, allowing for LA absorption time

6. If generator is 230Vac not 50Vdc, add a 230Vac==>120A/50VDC battery charger (or build this into the AC mains cost with a Victron Quattro 48/8000).

 

No cheating and using second-hand bits or ones from dodgy eBay sources, or shrinking the lithium (LA can't support 600A discharge current) battery pack (which only gives 90mins at full power even with the generator running, barely enough for the rivers mentioned), or using a lower power motor/controller (ditto).

 

By all means talk to Ricky, but I will still be amazed if he (or anyone else) can do all this for the same cost as a much simpler parallel hybrid. If he can then I'll agree with you that parallel hybrids are done for ?

 

P.S. The 25% license fee reduction -- even if it continues, which is unlikely -- is a red herring if this would take 50 years to pay back the higher cost of the serial hybrid...

[peterboat]

37 minutes ago, IanD said:

So here's your (or Finesse's) challenge then : come up with a "proper" series hybrid which does the same job as the parallel hybrid as far as the user is concerned, for the same cost (approx 20k).

 

Since you keep mentioning boats at Crick it has to be built from new commercial-grade components, and has to use 50V to stay within the low voltage directive:

 

1. 30kW water-cooled motor -- same power at prop as a Beta 43, needed for Ribble Link/Trent etc (see electric boat thread)

2. 30kW motor controller (600A/50V)

3. new 40kWh (800Ah/50V) LiFePO4 battery (or matched grade A cells) from a reputable manufacturer/supplier

4. "proper" commercial BMS system -- protection, charge control, monitoring, balancing

5. 6kVA (minimum) quiet known-name 1500rpm diesel generator -- 6kW gives same charging time as parallel hybrid at 10kW, allowing for LA absorption time

6. If generator is 230Vac not 50Vdc, add a 230Vac==>120A/50VDC battery charger (or build this into the AC mains cost with a Victron Quattro 48/8000).

 

No cheating and using second-hand bits or ones from dodgy eBay sources, or shrinking the lithium (LA can't support 600A discharge current) battery pack (which only gives 90mins at full power even with the generator running, barely enough for the rivers mentioned), or using a lower power motor/controller (ditto).

 

By all means talk to Ricky, but I will still be amazed if he (or anyone else) can do all this for the same cost as a much simpler parallel hybrid. If he can then I'll agree with you that parallel hybrids are done for ?

 

P.S. The 25% license fee reduction -- even if it continues, which is unlikely -- is a red herring if this would take 50 years to pay back the higher cost of the serial hybrid...

Ian a 15 Kw boat of theirs has done the trent an crossed the wash already, it doesn't matter what you think people are ordering these boats, parallel hybrids are dead because it requires ripping out all that expensive stuff to make it a real electric boat!

From 2025 will anybody spend the extra for something that doesn't comply? No is the answer, especially as it doesn't even get a license discount, I will speak to Ricky about his boats ,but remember unlike you he is in the boat business knows what he doing and decided that parallel hybrids are dead in the water because they don't really work (a bit like self charging hybrid cars) it seems to me you want to support old and past technology not the future 

As an aside the lynch motor which I have can create 10kw but the narrow boat cant hit that speed to do it so think again about your figures 

Edited November 19, 2020 by peterboat

[IanD]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

Ian a 15 Kw boat of theirs has done the trent an crossed the wash already, it doesn't matter what you think people are ordering these boats, parallel hybrids are dead because it requires ripping out all that expensive stuff to make it a real electric boat!

From 2025 will anybody spend the extra for something that doesn't comply? No is the answer, especially as it doesn't even get a license discount, I will speak to Ricky about his boats ,but remember unlike you he is in the boat business knows what he doing and decided that parallel hybrids are dead in the water because they don't really work (a bit like self charging hybrid cars) it seems to me you want to support old and past technology not the future 

As an aside the lynch motor which I have can create 10kw but the narrow boat cant hit that speed to do it so think again about your figures 

OK, so a reduced-power series hybrid can be cost-competitive with a higher-power (same as diesel) parallel hybrid. Imagine my surprise... ?

 

On this basis, why do typical 57 foot narrowboats have engines like the Beta43 recommended, and installed in so many boats? According to your reasoning a Beta 25 should be fine, that has the same maximum power at the prop as a 15kW motor. Funnily enough, this is only recommended for much smaller boats...

 

[and don't bring up the "we didn't need this much power in the old days" trope, 1 bhp or kW is the same size as it always was -- are you suggesting that every single modern narrowboat is over-engined? or that "electric has more low-speed torque" -- true, but totally irrelevant for a boat when you look at the prop power curve]

 

(10kW Lynch is another red herring, already been said many times that only about 3kW is needed on still canals, that's not when you need the power)

 

The situation is nothing like "self-charging cars" as I suspect you know very well, these are a tax fiddle to get a bit lower CO2 emissions in tests.

 

Either type of hybrid will comply with the rules from 2025, both are capable of zero-emission cruising, both need either solar/online charging or to run an onboard diesel to charge the batteries.

 

A good justification for a series hybrid could well be that in the far distant electric-only future all you do is remove the genset and you have an electric boat, with a parallel hybrid the engine needs removing. Whether now is the right time to buy one given the cost is another point, because right now all the components -- especially the batteries -- are expensive, so there's a big early-adopter penalty.

 

If you're really so bothered about cost (which you must be given that a small reduction in the license fee seems to be an obsession...) then the right thing to do is install a diesel now (not any kind of hybrid), and switch to all-electric (like you use now, but which won't work for many right now) in a few years when charging points exist and both the batteries and electrics are much cheaper, having had the cost driven down by cars.

 

I know you're a great fan of electric boats (as am I, for the future) but on this thread (and many others) you keep twisting the facts to make your case look better, ignoring inconvenient facts, and throwing up red herrings when challenged instead of answering difficult questions.

 

I'm not going to bother continuing arguing this with you, you're like an evangelist (or Donald Trump) who is so convinced they're right that they can't see anyone else's point of view and won't look at -- or distort -- the facts to suit their argument.

 

And before you accuse me of doing the same, facts is what every single one of my arguments are based on, and I'm always willing to change my mind if the facts change or new ones come to light which show I'm wrong. You're not ?

 

Bye.

Edited November 19, 2020 by IanD