Conversion

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

No most batteries are owned RenaultNissan tried it and it has now been closed down, you will be  going against people who buy the whole car to convert classic cars to electric

Speaking of which.

 

By co incidence happened to stumble across this today on YouTube.

 

 

 

[peterboat]

17 minutes ago, Jerra said:

IIRC that is what one forumite has used for his electric wide beam.

I have Jerra just the motor and it has to be the drive motor, the rest I sourced from all over the place, I recon it has cost me 3.5K for everything less 2.5k back when I sold the engine.  Labour however has been all mine and a lot of hours were spent doing it

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

I have Jerra just the motor and it has to be the drive motor, the rest I sourced from all over the place, I recon it has cost me 3.5K for everything less 2.5k back when I sold the engine.  Labour however has been all mine and a lot of hours were spent doing it

Thanks I just couldn't be certain a) it was you and b) that it was fair to name you incase you didn't want  to be in the discussion.

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Speaking of which.

 

By co incidence happened to stumble across this today on YouTube.

 

 

 

Eurojag up your end of the woods is buying all the crashed Jag I paces it can they have a market for the batteries and running gear they can get hold of

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Thanks I just couldn't be certain a) it was you and b) that it was fair to name you incase you didn't want  to be in the discussion.

 

Whilst that is both polite and considerate, the odds of Peter not joining in on an electric boating discussion are lower that those on him staying off the Brexit thread

 

He's probably the greatest evangelist on both forums for electric boats, and more importantly has already put his money where his mouth is!

[IanD]

43 minutes ago, peterboat said:

However for licensing they are a diesel, Beta are going the electric route already, Finesse the same, I suspect the Parallel  hybrid will go the way of the betamax recorder.

I agree, hybrids (parallel or serial) are a stopgap until there's enough charging infrastructure to go all-electric, assuming this happens in our lifetimes.

 

In the meantime they provide a solution which can use charging points if/when/where they exist and can gradually move away from using any diesel, all-electric isn't feasible (for most people) today due to the lack of these.

 

If you're going to have a hybrid, right now a parallel one makes much more sense for a narrowboat than a serial one.

 

The only exception is if you really think that all-electric will become feasible in the near future, with widespread availability of charging stations. In this case you could build a series hybrid now, and then later on remove the diesel generator. But if you're never going to remove it then a parallel hybrid still makes more sense for a narrowboat.

Edited November 17, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Whilst that is both polite and considerate, the odds of Peter not joining in on an electric boating discussion are lower that those on him staying off the Brexit thread

 

He's probably the greatest evangelist on both forums for electric boats, and more importantly has already put his money where his mouth is!

All true mate, my electric Tuk Tuk recovery truck is forever at your disposal ?

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

I agree, hybrids (parallel or serial) are a stopgap until there's enough charging infrastructure to go all-electric, assuming this happens in our lifetimes.

 

In the meantime they provide a solution which can use charging points if/when/where they exist and can gradually move away from using any diesel, all-electric isn't feasible (for most people) today due to the lack of these.

 

If you're going to have a hybrid, right now a parallel one makes much more sense than a serial one.

 

The only exception is if you really think that all-electric will become feasible in the near future, with widespread availability of charging stations. In this case you could build a series hybrid now, and then later on remove the diesel generator. But if you're never going to remove it then a parallel hybrid still makes more sense for a narrowboat.

I agree, hybrids (parallel or serial) are a stopgap until there's enough charging infrastructure to go all-electric, assuming this happens in our lifetimes.

 

In the meantime they provide a solution which can use charging points if/when/where they exist and can gradually move away from using any diesel, all-electric isn't feasible (for most people) today due to the lack of these.

 

If you're going to have a hybrid, right now a parallel one makes much more sense than a serial one.

 

The only exception is if you really think that all-electric will become feasible in the near future, with widespread availability of charging stations. In this case you could build a series hybrid now, and then later on remove the diesel generator. But if you're never going to remove it then a parallel hybrid still makes more sense for a narrowboat.

I agree, hybrids (parallel or serial) are a stopgap until there's enough charging infrastructure to go all-electric, assuming this happens in our lifetimes.

 

In the meantime they provide a solution which can use charging points if/when/where they exist and can gradually move away from using any diesel, all-electric isn't feasible (for most people) today due to the lack of these.

 

If you're going to have a hybrid, right now a parallel one makes much more sense than a serial one.

 

The only exception is if you really think that all-electric will become feasible in the near future, with widespread availability of charging stations. In this case you could build a series hybrid now, and then later on remove the diesel generator. But if you're never going to remove it then a parallel hybrid still makes more sense for a narrowboat.

I honestly think that once Beta or was it Barrus Shire start with electric drive, parallel hybrids will be history. As well as Finesse other boat builders are going that way, it really is from my point of view and I have experienced both 

[BD3Bill]

https://aaoil.co.uk/brands/ecopar/

In the meantime I’ll be changing to this to save my sordid old lungs.

Costs a fortune, but at only 100 to 200 hrs running engine p.a. I have the budget for it. 

*that will get a reaction “ hides .... popcorn...... ?

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I honestly think that once Beta or was it Barrus Shire start with electric drive, parallel hybrids will be history. As well as Finesse other boat builders are going that way, it really is from my point of view and I have experienced both 

 

I think we just need something like the Tesla Powerwall to get marine certified.

 

13.5 kWh of juicy lithium goodness in a fit and forget box, and you can daisychain 10 of them together.  For comparison, the standard narrowboat 4 x 110Ah lead acid lesiure battery bank has 2.6 kWh usable.

 

Obviously they still need charging ...

 

 

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I think we just need something like the Tesla Powerwall to get marine certified.

 

13.5 kWh of juicy lithium goodness in a fit and forget box, and you can daisychain 10 of them together.  For comparison, the standard narrowboat 4 x 110Ah lead acid lesiure battery bank has 2.6 kWh usable.

 

Obviously they still need charging ...

 

 

I have 36kwhs of drive batteries and 9.5kwhs of domestic batteries all LifePo4s ?

[dmr]

1 hour ago, BD3Bill said:

Open to discussion, the Montgomery Canal has charging points already, I personally see the future Authority’s for Canals and Rivers getting grants to install, but then I am a very optimistic chap..... and so is my wife.... but she isn’t a chap... obviously.

I think I read somewhere that CRT have said they won't put charging points in, but I expect if somebody else puts up they money they would be happy. Some hire companies might take the lead in getting grants to do this, plus a few enterprising boatyards and marinas. They have talked a lot about doing it in London but thats to stop liveaboards making smoke rather than for propulsion.

 

................Dave

[Guest]

I see that rather sensibly that the ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles being brought forward five years to 2030 only refers to 'wholly' powered by such means.

 

Certain hybrids will still be allowed.

 

BBC News - Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54981425

 

New cars and vans powered wholly by petrol and diesel will not be sold in the UK from 2030, prime minister Boris Johnson has said.

 

But some hybrids would still be allowed, Mr Johnson confirmed

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[peterboat]

8 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

I see that rather sensibly that the ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles being brought forward five years to 2030 only refers to 'wholly' powered by such means.

 

Certain hybrids will still be allowed.

 

BBC News - Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54981425

 

New cars and vans powered wholly by petrol and diesel will not be sold in the UK from 2030, prime minister Boris Johnson has said.

 

But some hybrids would still be allowed, Mr Johnson confirmed

 

 

PHEV? Wont be the imitation ones from Toyota/Ford etc self charging hybrids as no fuel means no go

[David Mack]

14 hours ago, BD3Bill said:

https://aaoil.co.uk/brands/ecopar/

In the meantime I’ll be changing to this to save my sordid old lungs.

Costs a fortune, but at only 100 to 200 hrs running engine p.a. I have the budget for it. 

*that will get a reaction “ hides .... popcorn...... ?

And just how much of a fortune does it cost? The ad fails to mention the subject.

[IanD]

15 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I think we just need something like the Tesla Powerwall to get marine certified.

 

13.5 kWh of juicy lithium goodness in a fit and forget box, and you can daisychain 10 of them together.  For comparison, the standard narrowboat 4 x 110Ah lead acid lesiure battery bank has 2.6 kWh usable.

 

Obviously they still need charging ...

 

 

All fine, but have you read the specs and seen the pricing? 13.5kWh but only 5kW continuous output, so you'd need 4 to support a 20kW motor which is about the smallest you could use for an all-electric narrowboat. At 8 grand each that's 32 grand for the Powerwalls. Adding on a 20kW motor and 230Vac drive controller, you're looking at about 40 grand... ?

 

[yes I know prices will come down, I'm just injecting a dose of reality here...]

15 hours ago, peterboat said:

I honestly think that once Beta or was it Barrus Shire start with electric drive, parallel hybrids will be history. As well as Finesse other boat builders are going that way, it really is from my point of view and I have experienced both 

It doesn't matter who does electric drives, even if they work for you (for the reasons we've discussed at tedious length many times) they're not suitable for many/most narrowboats (and probably all hire boats) until the charging network is sorted out -- same applies to the Powerwall.

 

I'm sure that Beta or others will be happy to provide an all-electric solution once this happens, and then all hybrids will be history -- just like with cars ?

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

All fine, but have you read the specs and seen the pricing? 13.5kWh but only 5kW continuous output, so you'd need 4 to support a 20kW motor which is about the smallest you could use for an all-electric narrowboat. At 8 grand each that's 32 grand for the Powerwalls. Adding on a 20kW motor and 230Vac drive controller, you're looking at about 40 grand... ?

 

[yes I know prices will come down, I'm just injecting a dose of reality here...]

It doesn't matter who does electric drives, even if they work for you (for the reasons we've discussed at tedious length many times) they're not suitable for many/most narrowboats (and probably all hire boats) until the charging network is sorted out -- same applies to the Powerwall.

 

I'm sure that Beta or others will be happy to provide an all-electric solution once this happens, and then all hybrids will be history -- just like with cars ?

 

 

Ian the parallel hybrids are to expensive for the gain and you have to drag the gearbox internals around, you cant use the motor as a generator whilst stood which is why the uptake has been small that and the 2 volt LAs offered in the conversions. The winds have changed at Crick it was serial hybrids that were displayed last time with lots of solar its the way forward for the moment in 9 years time or maybe even earlier that will change

[Guest]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

PHEV? Wont be the imitation ones from Toyota/Ford etc self charging hybrids as no fuel means no go

Quite probably. That is why it says 'some' I guess.

 

It is however a sensible move IMHO. 

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Quite probably. That is why it says 'some' I guess.

 

It is however a sensible move IMHO. 

I have seen the full blurb its PHEV and thats until 2035

[IanD]

29 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Ian the parallel hybrids are to expensive for the gain and you have to drag the gearbox internals around, you cant use the motor as a generator whilst stood which is why the uptake has been small that and the 2 volt LAs offered in the conversions. The winds have changed at Crick it was serial hybrids that were displayed last time with lots of solar its the way forward for the moment in 9 years time or maybe even earlier that will change

I'm aware that serial hybrids are being promoted/displayed, but given the wallet-melting cost, how many have actually been sold?

 

I agree that the parallel hybrids are also expensive (but much cheaper than serial ones!), but I'm not sure what "gain" you think they're being bought for -- it certainly isn't money saving since the installation cost dwarfs any possible fuel saving over lifetime. Most people seem to be buying them for the "silent cruising" advantages, only having to run the engine maybe one hour to do three hours cruising, and no noise in locks and whenever else this is desirable. Both types of hybrid can provide this equally well.

 

The cost adder for a parallel hybrid over a "high-electric-use" boat (big alternators/battery bank/inverter/charger) which more and more people are looking for is also not that big. The reason for 2V flooded LA in the parallel hybrids is that the cost of a similar effective capacity new LiFePO4 battery bank (for a commercial builder who can't use cheap secondhand cells and a homebrewed BMS with no support, like you did) is still prohibitive, but is dropping year by year.

 

I also don't understand your "can't use the motor as a generator when stood" comment; you can but charging is only at about 3.5kW (same as a TP, and could easily be increased to >5kW) as opposed to 10kW when on the move.

 

I'm not saying that hybrids right now have any big advantages apart from the silent cruising, and the ability in future to be charged from shore when a network exists. But if you want silent cruising and are going to buy one now a parallel hybrid still makes more sense for most people unless you really do have money to burn, and put enough value on the long-term advantage that a serial hybrid can go all-electric in the future by removing the genset. Neither really makes sense today (apart from silent cruising) without a charging network, which is why there aren't many out there -- you've got to be willing to pay a *lot* of money for silent cruising, and even more with new LiFePO4.

 

Lots of solar is obviously A Good Thing but narrowboats need some other charging source until a network is established, unless you only cruise for short hours and not at all in winter.

 

(and please don't repeat for the hundredth time that all-solar works for you on your wideboat, we know that but it clearly can't for most narrowboats)

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have seen the full blurb its PHEV and thats until 2035

My personal view remains that banning PHEV's at any point before the range of fully electric cars is significantly extended in mass market affordable stuff (not the Tesla of this world) AND charging can be done quickly AND conveniently is folly.

 

They are a brilliant solution. As I've posted previously we have a family member who has a Mitsi PHEV and the vast majority of his journeys are short enough to be completed fully electric. I don't think hes put fuel in it now since March bar the time he came up to visit it us from Wiltshire in between lock downs.

 

Obviously if this is achieved by 2035 then fine, ban the sale of them.

[peterboat]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'm aware that serial hybrids are being promoted/displayed, but given the wallet-melting cost, how many have actually been sold?

 

I agree that the parallel hybrids are also expensive (but much cheaper than serial ones!), but I'm not sure what "gain" you think they're being bought for -- it certainly isn't money saving since the installation cost dwarfs any possible fuel saving over lifetime. Most people seem to be buying them for the "silent cruising" advantages, only having to run the engine maybe one hour to do three hours cruising, and no noise in locks and whenever else this is desirable. Both types of hybrid can provide this equally well.

 

The cost adder for a parallel hybrid over a "high-electric-use" boat (big alternators/battery bank/inverter/charger) which more and more people are looking for is also not that big. The reason for 2V flooded LA in the parallel hybrids is that the cost of a similar effective capacity new LiFePO4 battery bank (for a commercial builder who can't use cheap secondhand cells and a homebrewed BMS with no support, like you did) is still prohibitive, but is dropping year by year.

 

I also don't understand your "can't use the motor as a generator when stood" comment; you can but charging is only at about 3.5kW (same as a TP, and could easily be increased to >5kW) as opposed to 10kW when on the move.

 

I'm not saying that hybrids right now have any big advantages apart from the silent cruising, and the ability in future to be charged from shore when a network exists. But if you want silent cruising and are going to buy one now a parallel hybrid still makes more sense for most people unless you really do have money to burn, and put enough value on the long-term advantage that a serial hybrid can go all-electric in the future by removing the genset. Neither really makes sense today (apart from silent cruising) without a charging network, which is why there aren't many out there -- you've got to be willing to pay a *lot* of money for silent cruising, and even more with new LiFePO4.

 

Lots of solar is obviously A Good Thing but narrowboats need some other charging source until a network is established, unless you only cruise for short hours and not at all in winter.

 

(and please don't repeat for the hundredth time that all-solar works for you on your wideboat, we know that but it clearly can't for most narrowboats)

Ian the motor fits at the prop shaft end of the gearbox so operates whilst gearbox is in neutral so when engine is running in gear it charges the batteries so when stood in neutral so no electric from the motor.

Anyway let's see but all of the boats displayed at Crick last time were serial hybrids with plenty of solar so maybe the industry has already decided? It also gets the 25% license rebate which parallel doesn't 

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Ian the motor fits at the prop shaft end of the gearbox so operates whilst gearbox is in neutral so when engine is running in gear it charges the batteries so when stood in neutral so no electric from the motor.

Anyway let's see but all of the boats displayed at Crick last time were serial hybrids with plenty of solar so maybe the industry has already decided? It also gets the 25% license rebate which parallel doesn't 

Yes that's where the motor is. At the other end of the engine are two 24V alternators for charging out of gear, 60A as standard but 100A can be fitted. Suggest you read the data sheet ?

 

"The industry" could well be displaying serial hybrids because they're new/sexy/shiny and they can sell them at a high price/margin into a new exciting market; Hybrid Marine pretty much have the narrowboat parallel hybrid market sewn up so there's no point in anyone else promoting an existing system. Call me cynical, but in the end it's all about the money, and lots of expensive ideas have been promoted at Crick over the years which never took off. Solar is an absolute no-brainer.

 

If serial hybrids get a 25% license rebate but parallel don't there's something wrong with the system; both can travel on electric power alone, both have an onboard diesel for providing power. Are you sure about this?

Edited November 18, 2020 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes that's where the motor is. At the other end of the engine are two 24V alternators, 60A as standard but 100A can be fitted. Suggest you read the data sheet ?

 

If serial hybrids get a rebate but parallel don't there's something wrong; both can travel on electric power alone, both have an onboard diesel. Are you sure about this?

From the licence T&C's

 

Electric Motor 25% discount if the Boat has an electric motor as its sole means of propulsion.

 

If it can be run directly from an engine then the discount is not allowed, the discount is only gtranted if the engine is directly connected to the batteries and the batteries to the electric motor and the motor to the shaft.

 

Any connection between engine and shaft means the 'SOLE means of propulsion' is not electric.

[peterboat]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes that's where the motor is. At the other end of the engine are two 24V alternators, 60A as standard but 100A can be fitted. Suggest you read the data sheet ?

 

If serial hybrids get a rebate but parallel don't there's something wrong; both can travel on electric power alone, both have an onboard diesel. Are you sure about this?

Yes I am sure about it the man inspecting my boat did not want to see an engine with electric motor attached to it. Remember 25% of a widebeam license in discount is a big chunk of money. I know Beta's engine has big alternators attached but it's not as good as Finesse with its system which incidentally will be using secondhand Nissan leaf battery packs to reduce its price. One is a proper system the other isn't which is why serial hybrids will win

Edited November 18, 2020 by peterboat