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2 hours ago, Jerra said:

Just because wildlife is mentioned it doesn't have to be spectacular or even noticeable.  Insects, spiders, plants (variety of/rarity) amphibians etc etc aren't noticeable or spectacular but are very definitely wildlife.   The sheer biodiversity may be enough to get a place "labelled".

Agreed, there were lots of dragonfly in summer, and there is a rare weed, one among many. There are a few SSSI  I think. There is a lot of untapped potential, but it needs managed.

If you visit any RSPB site you will see how management encourages bio diverstiy big time.

I believe they are now one of the biggest landowners in the UK, they have charitable status similar to the CRT  but have a large membership, OK, most  of the popular reserves charge visitors if they are non members, a great incentive to folks to join, I think annual membership is about £60 pa, a  day ticket is about £5.00, so there are plenty of people willing to join.

I don't know if CRT have any wildlife management staff, the message I get from the website is how much more wellness we will all acumulate if more townies use the towpaths, and donate! 

Hedge management is easy enough, cut back the dead stuff, clear ditches,  and plant up some  native small hedging plants,  trim every few years. Keep most of the towpath grass on regular contract cutting, allocate some areas as wildlife /  conservation grasslands., irregular mowing encourages wildflowers and native grasses, these grasses and flowers are neded for insects, insect feed birds, etc etc. There needs to be a wildlife policy, visibly supported by senior management. Accountants can be persuaded to agree to well presented business plans.

Edited by LadyG
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19 hours ago, IanD said:

What you're describing is a series hybrid, where you need a diesel engine and a generator and a motor all rated at the highest bhp/kW needed to be able to sustain power on things like an upriver cruise, all of which is a bulky and very expensive solution -- especially the electrical systems.

 

For boats -- and narrowboats in particular -- the consensus is that a parallel hybrid is a better solution since you only need one motor/generator rated at a fraction (typically about a quarter) of the diesel power, and one which is smaller, much cheaper and easier to fit into a narrowboat. The battery bank and inverter can provide all the onboard AC power needed.

 

Here's one analysis, admittedly from a company which has successfully installed many narrowboat hybrid systems (there's a clue there), but others have reached similar conclusions.

 

https://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/index.php/hybrid-info/which-hybrid-is-best

 

Series hybrids have been proposed and even tried out on narrowboats (e.g. Fischer-Panda) but have not been either common or successful.

 

There might be a clue here... ?

interesting link, just a pity that whoever prepared it did not check his graphs.   the graph shows 3 knots at zero power in calm water but the text indicates 4kW to propel the boat at this speed.

 

I hate it when technical papers (electric power, covid statistics, wind power, etc.) contain obvious mistakes - it introduces doubt about the whole document unnecessarily.  

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4 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

interesting link, just a pity that whoever prepared it did not check his graphs.   the graph shows 3 knots at zero power in calm water but the text indicates 4kW to propel the boat at this speed.

 

I hate it when technical papers (electric power, covid statistics, wind power, etc.) contain obvious mistakes - it introduces doubt about the whole document unnecessarily.  

Agreed, the number of times I spot things like this is annoying, almost like people can't proof-read. Still, a clear explanation of the differences..

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5 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Dragonflies are one of the oldest most ancient known living things on earth. They are clever, just a little bit clevererer than any of their predaters.

One really hot day two summers ago,I sailed into a large swarm of Dragonflies on the Huddersfield Broad.

I've never noticed them before,but these were huge.Some I would swear were three inches long.The majority were about two inches.

I didn't know that Dragonflies were so big.

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9 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Dragonflies are one of the oldest most ancient known living things on earth. They are clever, just a little bit clevererer than any of their predaters.

But not as longlived as their predators, they have a short life  spending best part of the day in copulation. Not much meat on them either.

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19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Agreed, there were lots of dragonfly in summer, and there is a rare weed, one among many. There are a few SSSI  I think. There is a lot of untapped potential, but it needs managed.

Nature does not need managed most of the time.

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

If you visit any RSPB site you will see how management encourages bio diverstiy big time.

Having worked on Scottish RSPB reserves mainly Insh I am well aware of how reserves are managed and for much of the time it is to protect a particular habitat or species.   Which is why we spent so much time preventing the Insh mashes becoming willor carr.

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I believe they are now one of the biggest landowners in the UK, they have charitable status similar to the CRT  but have a large membership, OK, most  of the popular reserves charge visitors if they are non members, a great incentive to folks to join, I think annual membership is about £60 pa, a  day ticket is about £5.00, so there are plenty of people willing to join.

Again I have been a member for 50+years so am well aware of things re RSPB

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I don't know if CRT have any wildlife management staff, the message I get from the website is how much more wellness we will all acumulate if more townies use the towpaths, and donate! 

A necessity if they are to continue to get govt grants.

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Hedge management is easy enough, cut back the dead stuff, clear ditches,  and plant up some  native small hedging plants,  trim every few years. Keep most of the towpath grass on regular contract cutting, allocate some areas as wildlife /  conservation grasslands., irregular mowing encourages wildflowers and native grasses, these grasses and flowers are neded for insects, insect feed birds, etc etc. There needs to be a wildlife policy, visibly supported by senior management. Accountants can be persuaded to agree to well presented business plans.

Yet again there isn't much you can tell me about reserve management.   Personally I think that  a wildlife policy widely publicised would be detrimental to CRT and the things it has to do.   You would soon and inevitably get conflict between such things as dredging and weed clearance.

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5 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

One really hot day two summers ago,I sailed into a large swarm of Dragonflies on the Huddersfield Broad.

I've never noticed them before,but these were huge.Some I would swear were three inches long.The majority were about two inches.

I didn't know that Dragonflies were so big.

True Dragonflies are quite large the smaller ones are Damselflies.   Dragonflies form an important part of some Hobby's diet.

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24 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

One really hot day two summers ago,I sailed into a large swarm of Dragonflies on the Huddersfield Broad.

I've never noticed them before,but these were huge.Some I would swear were three inches long.The majority were about two inches.

I didn't know that Dragonflies were so big.

Big brown coloured one? I had one fly up to my open front doors one day, it stopped and hovered just like a helicopter and peered all around with it's big eyes, turned and flew away. It must have been a non smoker and didn't like the smell of my Old Holborn smoke.  I think the smaller blue ones are Damsel flies.

Edited by bizzard
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6 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Big brown coloured one? I had one fly up to my open front doors one day, it stopped and hovered just like a helicopter and peered all around with it's big eyes, turned and flew away. It must have been a non smoker and didn't like the smell of my Old Holborn smoke.  I think the smaller blue ones are Damsel flies.

Big (can be huge!) with shorter chunky/flat bodies = dragonfly, smaller with tubular bodies (often green/blue) = damselflies.

 

The way to be sure is that when they land dragonflies keep their wings open and damselflies close them.

Edited by IanD
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24 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Nature does not need managed most of the time.

Having worked on Scottish RSPB reserves mainly Insh I am well aware of how reserves are managed and for much of the time it is to protect a particular habitat or species.   Which is why we spent so much time preventing the Insh mashes becoming willor carr.

Again I have been a member for 50+years so am well aware of things re RSPB

A necessity if they are to continue to get govt grants.

Yet again there isn't much you can tell me about reserve management.   Personally I think that  a wildlife policy widely publicised would be detrimental to CRT and the things it has to do.   You would soon and inevitably get conflict between such things as dredging and weed clearance.

Were you a member of Arthur Ransome's Coot club too? :)

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8 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Big brown coloured one? I had one fly up to my open front doors one day, it stopped and hovered just like a helicopter and peered all around with it's big eyes, turned and flew away. It must have been a non smoker and didn't like the smell of my Old Holborn smoke.  I think the smaller blue ones are Damsel flies.

or even your visage   :rolleyes:

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6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But where will you obtain the diesel from and what price will it be ?

 

From 2030 there will be no new Diesel or petrol cars manufactured, and from 2035 there will be no new diesel or petrol powered boats built.

As 'old vehicles and boats' die and are replaced by other means of propulsion the demand for petroleum products will be such that they will possibly becaome unavailable except in 'niche areas'.

 

Going into a shop with painted out windows,

Whispas ............Pssst, mate, got any diesel ? 

Cooking oil mate..... 

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On 16/11/2020 at 16:58, BEngo said:

>>adapt the drive controls from an EV<<

 

That seems to me to be the most likely method for most conversions. Why re-invent the wheel? 

 

5 hours ago, LadyG said:

But not as longlived as their predators, they have a short life  spending best part of the day in copulation. Not much meat on them either.

 

I rather doubt that this fact worries the dragonflies very much!

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On 16/11/2020 at 17:10, IanD said:

What you're describing is a series hybrid, where you need a diesel engine and a generator and a motor all rated at the highest bhp/kW needed to be able to sustain power on things like an upriver cruise, all of which is a bulky and very expensive solution -- especially the electrical systems.

 

For boats -- and narrowboats in particular -- the consensus is that a parallel hybrid is a better solution since you only need one motor/generator rated at a fraction (typically about a quarter) of the diesel power, and one which is smaller, much cheaper and easier to fit into a narrowboat. The battery bank and inverter can provide all the onboard AC power needed.

 

Here's one analysis, admittedly from a company which has successfully installed many narrowboat hybrid systems (there's a clue there), but others have reached similar conclusions.

 

https://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/index.php/hybrid-info/which-hybrid-is-best

 

Series hybrids have been proposed and even tried out on narrowboats (e.g. Fischer-Panda) but have not been either common or successful.

 

There might be a clue here... ?

However for licensing they are a diesel, Beta are going the electric route already, Finesse the same, I suspect the Parallel  hybrid will go the way of the betamax recorder.

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25 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

I rather doubt that this fact worries the dragonflies very much!

Sorry I have just noticed the wildly wrong statement about how long Dragonflies live.   I think somebody is mixing them up with Mayflies.

 

Damsel flies have a free flying life in the region of a couple of weeks  and Dragonflies in the region of 4 months.

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On 16/11/2020 at 16:58, BEngo said:

If you are going to generate lots of  electricity I would do it at 440V 3 phase and drive an electric motor through a Variable Frequency drive.  Well established industrial route with lots of kit about.  You could also have an all electric boat, if you can make the genny quiet enough.

  I would want to  fit a 3 phase input battery charger,  to be driven by the generator.  Again industrial kit is available.

The battery would drive the motor through a 3 phase inverter drive. There is industrial kit about  but you would need to pick the battery voltage to match the inverters DC section or you  adapt the drive controls from an EV.

Plus as much solar as I could get on, and a shore power charger for when I could get mains.

N

So perhaps a donor forklift ? Thanks for your help. 

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On 16/11/2020 at 17:02, MarkH2159 said:

I too have similar ideas, but being a little older I was not actually worrying about the 2050 proposals.

I would like to have boat with a Travel Power or similar generator set up, but then I thought why not go further and have Hybrid.

Working in Taipei, almost all taxis are hybrid here and they even have Teslas as taxis too, so electric propulsion of some form or other is very viable.

 

Having a diesel Generator , big bank of batteries, loads of solar and an electric motor will not solve the 2050 zero emission issues but it would go a long way to killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

 

So far I have only pushed the idea round on a bit of paper, thinking about having the soundproofed Generator offset to one side and the battery bank on the other with the propulsion motor obviously in the middle.

What size of Generator, what size electric motor and what voltage, how many AH batteries?

I am thinking 15 Kw Genny, 15 Kw prop motor and 60 Volts and around 1000 AH, but I am sure there are others who have better ideas.

 

Then looking at all these hybrid cars and thinking of 'Elton Mush' I thought...what happens to the batteries out of the crashed cars, are they a viable source of power?

Is there a way of getting hold of them, managing and charging them for a NB propulsion and storage system maybe.

 

Thinking, and then wondering about the conversion costs and the magic controllers it would all need.

 

I believe most EV’s use batteries that are on a lease agreement, presumably I’m not gonna find some in my local scrapyard.... but I do have a tame local scrapper.

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7 hours ago, Tractor said:

Employed some years ago using industrial components, the following was employed for an all-electric boat:

Diesel generator 22kVA, acoustic enclosure, 230 Volt 3 phase, delta, operating at constant speed, keel cooling and enclosure exhaust provide the necessary heat dump.

Inverter drive 18.5 kW, 230 Volt, 3 phase, speed control and direction via a small throttle lever.

Motor, 6 pole, 3phase delta connected. Prop shaft coupling through flexi coupling, no gearbox required, providing a stepless speed range from zero to 1000rpm or greater.

Surplus power available for cooking, washing machine, dryer, microwave, and ancillary loads.

To bring this system to date for a ‘hybrid’ solution, would require batteries connected to the inverter drive, providing a Voltage operating ‘window’ of 180 to 260 Volts, qty 22 lithium ion cells, at some cost, with a suitable 3 phase charging system. The operating window between batteries and the inverter drive could be optimized with a DC/ DC system. A system of solar power would complete the package, to include a robust shore supply.

The lower operating voltage would provide a system without the hazard of having 400 volts 3 phase, and all galley components would be standard domestic.

Whilst deviating from the original question, this provided a working system which may help in principal, with anyone planning a diesel electric boat.

To much lectricity there, a 48 volt direct drive complete unit I was using one last week in a 65 foot narrowboat 15 KW, one of these has gone up the trent and across the wash already, it has a genny that charges the batteries via a 48 inverter charger electric motor is liquid cooled via a small keel tank, large solar array. Genny can charge batteries from 5 hours cruising in 1 hour also full tank of hot water.

MY own widebeam runs at nominally 72 volts its over 30 hp a lot of torque and is also direct drive, its forced air cooling I get the 25% license discount which parallel hybrids dont. When it was getting inspected they didnt really want to see big gennies in the engine bay because then it might not get the discount, I have a lot of solarl 4.6kw to be exact

Edited by peterboat
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On 16/11/2020 at 17:13, dmr said:

Thats not really in the spirit of the law so might be outlawed, but it would be good, run the engine hard for a short time to charge the batteries. How expensive will diesel become?

But really there are bigger issues here, you could still easily still be boating at 70 which is 2035, will we even have a canal system? We likely will but it will be declining. CRT will not install electricity infrastructure so boating will start to decline as people decide its no longer worth investing in a brand new boat. With boating declining CRT will decide its not worth spending so much on maintaining the canals, the cyclists will take over. The only question is will the water remain for its wildlife and aesthetic appeal, or will it be tarmaced over to make bigger cycleways.

 

The canal next to me is now likely closed all winter as a small failure can not be fixed for some reason, but CRT are putting a lot of effort into the towpath, specifically removing items that cause inconvenience (slowing down) to cyclists.

 

..................Dave

Open to discussion, the Montgomery Canal has charging points already, I personally see the future Authority’s for Canals and Rivers getting grants to install, but then I am a very optimistic chap..... and so is my wife.... but she isn’t a chap... obviously.

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5 minutes ago, BD3Bill said:

I believe most EV’s use batteries that are on a lease agreement, presumably I’m not gonna find some in my local scrapyard.... but I do have a tame local scrapper.

No most batteries are owned RenaultNissan tried it and it has now been closed down, you will be  going against people who buy the whole car to convert classic cars to electric

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7 hours ago, Tractor said:

Employed some years ago using industrial components, the following was employed for an all-electric boat:

Diesel generator 22kVA, acoustic enclosure, 230 Volt 3 phase, delta, operating at constant speed, keel cooling and enclosure exhaust provide the necessary heat dump.

Inverter drive 18.5 kW, 230 Volt, 3 phase, speed control and direction via a small throttle lever.

Motor, 6 pole, 3phase delta connected. Prop shaft coupling through flexi coupling, no gearbox required, providing a stepless speed range from zero to 1000rpm or greater.

Surplus power available for cooking, washing machine, dryer, microwave, and ancillary loads.

To bring this system to date for a ‘hybrid’ solution, would require batteries connected to the inverter drive, providing a Voltage operating ‘window’ of 180 to 260 Volts, qty 22 lithium ion cells, at some cost, with a suitable 3 phase charging system. The operating window between batteries and the inverter drive could be optimized with a DC/ DC system. A system of solar power would complete the package, to include a robust shore supply.

The lower operating voltage would provide a system without the hazard of having 400 volts 3 phase, and all galley components would be standard domestic.

Whilst deviating from the original question, this provided a working system which may help in principal, with anyone planning a diesel electric boat.

Thank you. 

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