phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[peterboat]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

From the link I posted it looks as if Aberdeen, the UK oil capital is producing its own green hydrogen 

 

 

The zero-emission fleet only produces water from use of the hydrogen fuel cell, with the energy coming from water and wind, with the buses forming part of the city’s transition of green energy from oil and gas as part of the city’s Net Zero Vision.

Plans are in place for Aberdeen to start producing its own hydrogen for use in these buses, cementing Aberdeen as one of Scotland’s green cities in preparation for COP26.

Lots of wind turbines up there so no problems really 

[Ronaldo47]

 

From the January 2021 issue of "Modern Railways": page 13. 

 

"SHOOTER URGES CAUTION ON HYDROGEN HUBRIS

 

In [Adrian Shooter's] keynote speech to the virtual Golden Spanner Awards on 27th November ... Mr Shooter  [ the chairman of Vivarail] said that the process to create 'green hydrogen' by electrolysis  is a 'wateful use of electricity' and was sceptical about using electricity to create hydrogen to then power a fuel cell to power a train, rather than charging batteries to power a train. 'What you will discover is that a hydrogen train uses 3.5 times as much electricity because of inefficiencies in the electroysis process and in the fuel cells' said Mr.Shooter. He also noted the energy density of hydrogen at 350 bar is only one ninth of a similar quantity of diesel fuel, severelty limiting the range before refuelling.  

 

He mentioned that a current experimental hydrogen-powered 3-car train only has 2-car passenger capacity due to the space required for fuel storage, making the effective fuel cost ratio over 5 times as much as the original class 321 diesel-powered train.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Ronaldo47
Typos

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

 

From the January 2021 issue of "Modern Railways": page 13. 

 

"SHOOTER URGES CAUTION ON HYDROGEN HUBRIS

 

In [Adrian Shooter's] keynote speech to the virtual Golden Spanner Awards on 27th November ... Mr Shooter  [ the chairman of Vivarail] said that the process to create 'green hydrogen' by electrolysis  is a 'wateful use of electricity' and was sceptical about using electricity to create hydrogen to then power a fuel cell to power a train, rather than charging batteries to power a train. 'What you will discover is that a hydrogen train uses 3.5 times as much electricity because of inefficiencies in the electroysis process and in the fuel cells' said Mr.Shooter. He also noted the energy density of hydrogen at 350 bar is only one ninth of a similar quantity of diesel fuel, severelty limiting the range before refuelling.  

 

He mentioned that a current experimental hydrogen-powered 3-car train only has 2-car passenger capacity due to the space required for fuel storage, making the effective fuel cost ratio over 5 times as much as the original class 321 diesel-powered train.

Spot on.

The waste of power in electrolysis is frightening.

.......and hydrogen is bl**dy dangerous.

Fuel cells based on methanol are a far better idea.

 

[peterboat]

9 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

 

From the January 2021 issue of "Modern Railways": page 13. 

 

"SHOOTER URGES CAUTION ON HYDROGEN HUBRIS

 

In [Adrian Shooter's] keynote speech to the virtual Golden Spanner Awards on 27th November ... Mr Shooter  [ the chairman of Vivarail] said that the process to create 'green hydrogen' by electrolysis  is a 'wateful use of electricity' and was sceptical about using electricity to create hydrogen to then power a fuel cell to power a train, rather than charging batteries to power a train. 'What you will discover is that a hydrogen train uses 3.5 times as much electricity because of inefficiencies in the electroysis process and in the fuel cells' said Mr.Shooter. He also noted the energy density of hydrogen at 350 bar is only one ninth of a similar quantity of diesel fuel, severelty limiting the range before refuelling.  

 

He mentioned that a current experimental hydrogen-powered 3-car train only has 2-car passenger capacity due to the space required for fuel storage, making the effective fuel cost ratio over 5 times as much as the original class 321 diesel-powered train.

 

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Spot on.

The waste of power in electrolysis is frightening.

.......and hydrogen is bl**dy dangerous.

Fuel cells based on methanol are a far better idea.

 

I think hydrogen should be made with waste electric from wind turbines [dont turn them off] but the hydrogen should be used in a power station rather than transported around. I dont think it should go in the gas grid as it will find a leak with disastrous results, also the power stations should be a distance from the wind turbines interconnects and away from people as hydrogen really can eat through metal

[Dr Bob]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

I think hydrogen should be made with waste electric from wind turbines [dont turn them off] but the hydrogen should be used in a power station rather than transported around. I dont think it should go in the gas grid as it will find a leak with disastrous results, also the power stations should be a distance from the wind turbines interconnects and away from people as hydrogen really can eat through metal

I'd agree with constraining hydrogen to power stations so it is not transported. The question then is what to do about the electricity issue. During the night we have surplus electricity. During peak periods we don't. Surely storing it in batteries is the best route ...so store in the off peak and use in the peak, rather than waste 2/3 rds on making hydrogen.

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I'd agree with constraining hydrogen to power stations so it is not transported. The question then is what to do about the electricity issue. During the night we have surplus electricity.  

Charge all the cars up

[peterboat]

36 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I'd agree with constraining hydrogen to power stations so it is not transported. The question then is what to do about the electricity issue. During the night we have surplus electricity. During peak periods we don't. Surely storing it in batteries is the best route ...so store in the off peak and use in the peak, rather than waste 2/3 rds on making hydrogen.

Make hydrogen? Maybe steelworks can be powered by it? Also this would be on the coast so big ships refueling as ammonia?

38 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I'd agree with constraining hydrogen to power stations so it is not transported. The question then is what to do about the electricity issue. During the night we have surplus electricity. During peak periods we don't. Surely storing it in batteries is the best route ...so store in the off peak and use in the peak, rather than waste 2/3 rds on making hydrogen.

Forgot to say my BMW I3 rex arrives this week  Jaynes son works for Arnoldclark so I have got a hefty discount on a 2017 car with full leather, just have to transfer plate onto it when it comes 

[Mike Todd]

59 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I'd agree with constraining hydrogen to power stations so it is not transported. The question then is what to do about the electricity issue. During the night we have surplus electricity. During peak periods we don't. Surely storing it in batteries is the best route ...so store in the off peak and use in the peak, rather than waste 2/3 rds on making hydrogen.

Generate electricity - use it to make hydrogen - use hydrogen to generate electricity??????

[Ronaldo47]

The trouble is that, other than for a capacitor, you cannot store electricity. You can only convert electrical energy into another form of energy that can be stored, and any conversion process will involve some energy loss.

 

The trouble is that nothing comes remotely close to hydrocarbon fuel in terms of energy density. More than 20 years ago there was an article on electric vehicles in one of the IEE journals prefaced by a photograph of a medium-sized power station. The article mentined that, when you are putting petrol in your car, you are transferring energy at a rate equal to the total output of that power station.

[nb Innisfree]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

Forgot to say my BMW I3 rex arrives this week  Jaynes son works for Arnoldclark so I have got a hefty discount on a 2017 car with full leather, just have to transfer plate onto it when it comes 

94ah I assume?

Have fun, they're great cars! ?

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, peterboat said:

I think hydrogen should be made with waste electric from wind turbines [dont turn them off] but the hydrogen should be used in a power station rather than transported around.

 

If the power station is alongside the wind turbine, what have you achieved in converting electricity to hydrogen and back to electricity (other than wasting 2/3 of the energy)? If the power station is remote from the wind turbine why not connect the two locations with an electricity cable?

 

The whole issue is precisely that we do need a transportable supply of energy to replace hydrocarbon fuels for mobile power uses - trains, vehicles and boats. Fixed locations are much better served by electricity cables.

Edited January 30, 2021 by David Mack

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

If the power station is alongside the wind turbine, what have you achieved in converting electricity to hydrogen and back to electricity (other than wasting 2/3 of the energy)? If the power station is remote from the wind turbine why not connect the two locations with an electricity cable?

You have achieved paying the wind turbines companies for turning them off! The hydrogen is clean so clean electricity is the end result 

1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

94ah I assume?

Have fun, they're great cars! ?

I know that they are great cars you seem to be enjoying yours plenty! ? The 18 plate ones were more than I wanted to pay and all seemed to be black!

[Jackofalltrades]

What some may find interesting is that there are currently two companies (that I know of) that take cheap/plentiful renewable electricity (solar/wind/hydro/bio) from the national grid, store it in batteries and then sell it back to the national grid when power demand is high (+ several other reasons such as helping to stabilise the required 50Hz frequency). The supplied electricity is still classed as renewable, even at night when there's no wind.

 

The companies are:

 

Gore Street Energy Storage Fund PLC (LSE ticker: GRID)

https://www.gsenergystoragefund.com/content/about/fund

 

Gresham House Energy Storage Fund PLC (LSE ticker: GSF)

https://greshamhouse.com/real-assets/new-energy-sustainable-infrastructure/gresham-house-energy-storage-fund-plc/

 

Both companies have target dividends of 7p for 2021 so at current share prices they are paying annual dividend yields of well over 6%.

 

There is lots of interesting info on the above two company websites and somewhere or other there is an investor presentation video that details the multiple ways they make money.

 

Disclosure: my shrunken wad of a pension pot holds shares in the above companies.

 

Edited to add: I don't know if anyone has posted a link to GridWatch before https://gridwatch.co.uk/

 

It's cold, wet and miserable here in MK today but Gridwatch is showing that 33% of demand is currently being met by renewable energy, of which 28% is from wind. The UK is doing its bit to reduce its carbon footprint.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Jackofalltrades

[Murflynn]

4 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

The trouble is that, other than for a capacitor, you cannot store electricity.

 

and recently a well known boater gave us a link to a company selling super-capacitors that could feasibly be used to power a boat. 

however, reading between the lines it appeared that the 'capacitor' was actually a lithium battery 

[ditchcrawler]

24 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

 

 

It's cold, wet and miserable here in MK today but Gridwatch is showing that 33% of demand is currently being met by renewable energy, of which 28% is from wind. The UK is doing its bit to reduce its carbon footprint.

 

First time in weeks both the turbines in the next village have been running, I thought one was bust

[Jackofalltrades]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

First time in weeks both the turbines in the next village have been running, I thought one was bust

I've sailed past offshore windfarms when they've not been running. I now know that if demand if low the windfarms are paid to stop producing energy. Seems crazy but there you go. I suppose this is why the battery storage companies have sprung up. It makes sense, although why the wind farms couldn't do it themselves I don't know.

 

On a slightly different note, I was filling up with diesel in Ramsgate harbour the year before last and the number of large power catamaran workboats based there is a sight to behold. Their role is to take engineers out to nearby windfarms. The guy on the diesel pontoon said he'd sold 240,000 litres of diesel to them last week. He laughed about how green that was. I think he had a point.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

The guy on the diesel pontoon said he'd sold 240,000 litres of diesel to them last week. He laughed about how green that was. I think he had a point.

 

 

Not only the diesel the service boats USE, each windy-generator- thing has a diesel generator on board and the service boats have to top up the generators on a regular basis.

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

On a slightly different note, I was filling up with diesel in Ramsgate harbour the year before last and the number of large power catamaran workboats based there is a sight to behold. Their role is to take engineers out to nearby windfarms. The guy on the diesel pontoon said he'd sold 240,000 litres of diesel to them last week. He laughed about how green that was. I think he had a point.

 

While it isn't perfect, the counterpoint is how much electricity could be produced with that diesel in generators compared to the output of the windfarms over the same period.

 

The turbines use the diesel in generators built into the platforms, so most of that diesel is being delivered to the turbines and not being used purely to transport engineers by boat.

[Jackofalltrades]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Not only the diesel the service boats USE, each windy-generator- thing has a diesel generator on board and the service boats have to top up the generators on a regular basis.

That's news to me. Why do wind turbines have a diesel generator onboard?

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Not only the diesel the service boats USE, each windy-generator- thing has a diesel generator on board and the service boats have to top up the generators on a regular basis.

 

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

While it isn't perfect, the counterpoint is how much electricity could be produced with that diesel in generators compared to the output of the windfarms over the same period.

 

The turbines use the diesel in generators built into the platforms, so most of that diesel is being delivered to the turbines and not being used purely to transport engineers by boat.

We have had this before they network them now and have a supply from land as well 

[Jackofalltrades]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

While it isn't perfect, the counterpoint is how much electricity could be produced with that diesel in generators compared to the output of the windfarms over the same period.

 

Good point.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

While it isn't perfect, the counterpoint is how much electricity could be produced with that diesel in generators compared to the output of the windfarms over the same period.

 

The turbines use the diesel in generators built into the platforms, so most of that diesel is being delivered to the turbines and not being used purely to transport engineers by boat.

I suppose the oil companies could go green by powering their oil drills and pumps with renewable energy.

What are the diesel generators in the wind turbines their for?

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Jackofalltrades said:

That's news to me. Why do wind turbines have a diesel generator onboard?

In case of onboard power failure, latest ones allegedly don't need them 

[Jackofalltrades]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

In case of onboard power failure, latest ones allegedly don't need them 

OK, but as they are connected to land by a cable on the seabed why couldn't power be supplied via the same cable from land in the event of not enough wind to turn the turbines? Seems like a fundamental design failure! ...Corrected in the latest ones.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Jackofalltrades

[Mike Todd]

37 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

I've sailed past offshore windfarms when they've not been running. I now know that if demand if low the windfarms are paid to stop producing energy. Seems crazy but there you go. I suppose this is why the battery storage companies have sprung up. It makes sense, although why the wind farms couldn't do it themselves I don't know.

 

On a slightly different note, I was filling up with diesel in Ramsgate harbour the year before last and the number of large power catamaran workboats based there is a sight to behold. Their role is to take engineers out to nearby windfarms. The guy on the diesel pontoon said he'd sold 240,000 litres of diesel to them last week. He laughed about how green that was. I think he had a point.

Whether a wind turbine turns or not has as much to do with its contract to supply the grid as it has to do with the wind.