phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I love the idea, I'm glad we've set targets, but I don't yet see a clear way to meet them is all.

I've found throughout life that having targets incentivises folks to look for ways of achieving them.

 

If a salseman is going to be paid £1000 for acheieving his target, and £5000 for beating it by 20% I bet he will find a way of getting the business to achieve the growth.

 

Similarly , if the will is there (Covid vaccine ?) then answers can be found.

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

I didn't think you were referring to me Alan, but I recognised that my doubts might make me look like one!

 

I love the idea, I'm glad we've set targets, but I don't yet see a clear way to meet them is all. Every little helps though, and the developments are exciting.

 

I've thought for years that our tiny island is a real candidate for electrification, so the population can go about their daily lives emission free and the government, being in the best position to make the biggest difference, can decide how best to invest, set policy and make informed decisions regarding power generation. 

 

Depends on what you mean by emission free. Overall or at the point of consumption? I notice that some of the higher profile near-term plans are slowly evolving to say net zero by 2030 (or whenever) so of which is achieved by offsetting.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Depends on what you mean by emission free. Overall or at the point of consumption? I notice that some of the higher profile near-term plans are slowly evolving to say net zero by 2030 (or whenever) so of which is achieved by offsetting.

Reading the plan say "Zero air pollutants and greenhouse gas emission shipping" which I would take as meaning "zero emission in use", ie no engine emissions.

But that is just how I read it.

 

This could be achieved by using the new EDiesel which would allow boats to keep their existing diesel engines.

 

https://news.umich.edu/from-ponds-to-power-2m-to-perfect-algae-as-diesel-fuel/

Edited November 13, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

 

Nice. Quite a small amount though, even in the final phase.

 

 I'm certainly not a naysayer, I just don't think hydrogen is the answer, many attractions though it has. It might feature in some small measure, we've had hydrogen buses and fuel cells have advantages, but it's transport presents a huge volumetric issue and I can't see the gas main having sufficient capacity for anything on a mass scale. It takes a huge amount of energy to make it too and, even then, currently it's produced from fossil fuels anyway. Great for lowering local pollution levels though, but then again so is electricity. Good, but I'm thinking "no cigar" - which is probably on the hydrogen warning signs anyway...

 

I said the same I was a real hydrogen doubter, but the idea of not turning off wind turbines and paying the owner for doing so means that production of hydrogen with the excess electricity is a win win! Its already happened in Scotland and will happening here. I can't see hydrogen trains, trams, buses, lorries and cars taking off except if they explode ? but for electric generators and heating and cooking it will work. Wind turbines Investors won't be happy but who cares about them?

11 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Depends on what you mean by emission free. Overall or at the point of consumption? I notice that some of the higher profile near-term plans are slowly evolving to say net zero by 2030 (or whenever) so of which is achieved by offsetting.

They are looking at mini nuclear plants for big ships plus sails will be making a comeback! I am on Splash 24/7 I think its called and great information from the shipping world comes from it, zero emissions are further advanced than people think 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They are looking at mini nuclear plants for big ships plus sails will be making a comeback! I am on Splash 24/7 I think its called and great information from the shipping world comes from it, zero emissions are further advanced than people think 

 

It was in the news over the last couple of days that Rolls Royce are looking to produce 16 mini Nuclear Plants.

 

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/our-stories/innovation/2017/smr.aspx#application

 

https://news.sky.com/story/rolls-royce-to-create-6-000-uk-jobs-to-build-16-mini-nuclear-power-stations-12129634

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54703204

[Sea Dog]

34 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Depends on what you mean by emission free. Overall or at the point of consumption? I notice that some of the higher profile near-term plans are slowly evolving to say net zero by 2030 (or whenever) so of which is achieved by offsetting.

I mean that you and I use electric power for all of our domestic and travel needs, so at the point of consumption. The generation, with all its attendant issues, being government responsibility. It would still be incumbent upon individuals not to waste energy, but emissions would then become a central issue.  What level of emisions they achieve, by when, and what mix they use is then within the gift of the government.

[Batavia]

4 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Just wires ?

No need - just build a rotary transformer in the pintle!

Chris G

[Heartland]

All the talk seems to be of electric power. The aspect of hydrogen power  and fuel cells seems to have been not mentioned. There is a boat on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal which has that type of power. It is by Birmingham University.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Heartland said:

All the talk seems to be of electric power. The aspect of hydrogen power  and fuel cells seems to have been not mentioned. There is a boat on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal which has that type of power. It is by Birmingham University.

 

 

A lot of possibilities are being considered and evaluated under the Maritime 2050 Plan/

 

 

 

 

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Wind turbines Investors won't be happy but who cares about them?

 

The energy still comes from the wind, regardless of how it is stored and used (batteries, hydrogen, weights down coal shafts, bloody great flywheels -- you name it!) so we wind turbine investors wil continue to smile all the way to the bank, thank you. Name me another investment that has paid 7.5% per annum for the last ten years?

 

 

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A lot of possibilities are being considered and evaluated under the Maritime 2050 Plan/

Exactly so, and the clue is in the thread title "phasing out of fossil fuels". Not a sudden stop, but a phasing in of something else (or lots of something elses)

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Exactly so, and the clue is in the thread title "phasing out of fossil fuels". Not a sudden stop, but a phasing in of something else (or lots of something elses)

Yup, Cars by 2030 and boats by 2050.

 

30 years hould be suffcient.

[peterboat]

21 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

The energy still comes from the wind, regardless of how it is stored and used (batteries, hydrogen, weights down coal shafts, bloody great flywheels -- you name it!) so we wind turbine investors wil continue to smile all the way to the bank, thank you. Name me another investment that has paid 7.5% per annum for the last ten years?

 

 

Exactly so, and the clue is in the thread title "phasing out of fossil fuels". Not a sudden stop, but a phasing in of something else (or lots of something elses)

No ian the investors like to be paid for the turbines to be stopped it maximises their investment prolongs its life, me I want it spinning making hydrogen it .maximises the countries investment 

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yup, Cars by 2030 and boats by 2050.

 

30 years hould be suffcient.

In truth I think it will be quicker but at least it will keep the dinosaurs happy 

[Sea Dog]

46 minutes ago, Heartland said:

All the talk seems to be of electric power. The aspect of hydrogen power  and fuel cells seems to have been not mentioned. There is a boat on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal which has that type of power. It is by Birmingham University.

 

 

Funnily enough, I referred to that very "boat" earlier today on another thread.  Many's the time I've passed it, recumbent upon its mooring, with an apparent air of slow demise about it. Perhaps once a vision of the future, now looking like a sad echo of the past. Of course, it might be something awesome, designed and commissioned by brilliant academics without the practical skills to maintain their brainchild.  Or perhaps the subject of a long defunct grant? Whatever, it hardly looks like it'll be blazing a trail on a cut near you any time soon.

[peterboat]

57 minutes ago, Heartland said:

All the talk seems to be of electric power. The aspect of hydrogen power  and fuel cells seems to have been not mentioned. There is a boat on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal which has that type of power. It is by Birmingham University.

 

 

Its been moored up rotting for years don't think it was a great success to many problems and way to expensive! Like the current multitude of hydrogen cars..........not

[ditchcrawler]

13 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Funnily enough, I referred to that very "boat" earlier today on another thread.  Many's the time I've passed it, recumbent upon its mooring, with an apparent air of slow demise about it. Perhaps once a vision of the future, now looking like a sad echo of the past. Of course, it might be something awesome, designed and commissioned by brilliant academics without the practical skills to maintain their brainchild.  Or perhaps the subject of a long defunct grant? Whatever, it hardly looks like it'll be blazing a trail on a cut near you any time soon.

All the brambles growing over it makes it look like not much of a living project

[Detling]

On the subject of hydrogen the current proposal is to mix hydrogen with natural gas in the gas main. One problem will be that the mixture goes in and 50 miles away the natural gas will come out without any hydrogen which will have leaked out enroute. The hydrogen atom is the smallest atom and thus can seep through tiny holes that the comparably enormous natural gas molecule cannot escape through. You need special containers to hold hydrogen, your normal pipes won't cut it. Dig up every road not a chance. I do not know how porous the yellow plastic pipes are but I am not holding my breath. Hydrogen is also highly reactive it likes combining with other atoms often violently, but will it react with the plastic in any way?

 

[Detling]

Space heating has been mentioned and that uses more fuel (kWatts)  than propulsion in winter, even on hire boats moving 8 hours a day, solar is not going to help much there. Although for your average narrow boat or river craft, electric drive is fine (as long as they don't need to stop fast) for sea/estuary work you need vessels that are heavy and fast, like pilot cutters and customs launches, 15 or 20 tons and capable of 20 plus knots, an awful lot of kWatts needed. As for the likes of the RNLI their big boats are 40 tons, can do 25 knots into a very rough sea and keep going for over 24 hours if required, maybe one of the small nuclear reactors could be used. I am pretty sure the grey funnel line want enormous power, speed, and range in as small a space as possible to minimise the target area.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Funnily enough, I referred to that very "boat" earlier today on another thread.  Many's the time I've passed it, recumbent upon its mooring, with an apparent air of slow demise about it. Perhaps once a vision of the future, now looking like a sad echo of the past. Of course, it might be something awesome, designed and commissioned by brilliant academics without the practical skills to maintain their brainchild.  Or perhaps the subject of a long defunct grant? Whatever, it hardly looks like it'll be blazing a trail on a cut near you any time soon.

I did take a look at the Brum Uni web site a while ago and the impression I got was that the project was over. I suppose they are still paying a license fee to CaRT each year, with the electric discount and there is some sort of insurance policy on it, so some money is still going in that is being funded from somewhere.

[Sea Dog]

1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I did take a look at the Brum Uni web site a while ago and the impression I got was that the project was over. I suppose they are still paying a license fee to CaRT each year, with the electric discount and there is some sort of insurance policy on it, so some money is still going in that is being funded from somewhere.

I'm amazed by some of the "craft" someone is apparently paying a licence fee on (and, by extension, insurance and BSS fees).  You steam past these every year, watching them get worse and worse, apparently going unvisited. I guess a few are sadly for sentimental reasons, but the rest I'm sure I can't fathom.

 

[peterboat]

27 minutes ago, Detling said:

Space heating has been mentioned and that uses more fuel (kWatts)  than propulsion in winter, even on hire boats moving 8 hours a day, solar is not going to help much there. Although for your average narrow boat or river craft, electric drive is fine (as long as they don't need to stop fast) for sea/estuary work you need vessels that are heavy and fast, like pilot cutters and customs launches, 15 or 20 tons and capable of 20 plus knots, an awful lot of kWatts needed. As for the likes of the RNLI their big boats are 40 tons, can do 25 knots into a very rough sea and keep going for over 24 hours if required, maybe one of the small nuclear reactors could be used. I am pretty sure the grey funnel line want enormous power, speed, and range in as small a space as possible to minimise the target area.

Electric drive produces all its torque instantly so I would think it stops faster than a diesel? I know one of Finesses electric boat has crossed the wash this year I believe 

[Machpoint005]

16 hours ago, peterboat said:

No ian the investors like to be paid for the turbines to be stopped it maximises their investment prolongs its life

 

That's an unduly cynical view (and unsupported by evidence), as well as being inaccurate. Turbine life isn't the governing factor, the duration of the planning permission is.

[peterboat]

25 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

That's an unduly cynical view (and unsupported by evidence), as well as being inaccurate. Turbine life isn't the governing factor, the duration of the planning permission is.

Believe me Ian it is, sometimes the earnings from being stopped are nearly as much as spinning. Remember earlier this year when a big cheque had to be paid to Scotland? I have 2 friends with wind farms on their land I went to school with both of them, I used to see them regular before lockdown so they have explained the ins and outs of how it works 

[ditchcrawler]

13 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Believe me Ian it is, sometimes the earnings from being stopped are nearly as much as spinning. Remember earlier this year when a big cheque had to be paid to Scotland? I have 2 friends with wind farms on their land I went to school with both of them, I used to see them regular before lockdown so they have explained the ins and outs of how it works 

The ones in the next village to me were making money before the cables were even laid to them to connect them to the grid.
 

In the early days when I worked Offshore we were paid for gas even if it wasn't needed. We were contracted for a given amount of gas for the year and different rates through out the year. If the weather was warm then not all that gas was required, but we were paid because we had to have it available if required, on the other foot we were penalised if for some reason we couldn't supply what was required up to that contractual level. It all changed in later years when we supplied more than British Gas

[Thomas C King]

Does anyone have an idea of the size of the battery bank that we will need to say, cruise for a week without charging, in 2050? Assuming Lithiums. 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

Does anyone have an idea of the size of the battery bank that we will need to say, cruise for a week without charging, in 2050? Assuming Lithiums. 

It is not just the cruising, it is 'everything else' if you have an electric boat.

 

It will also depend on the weather, the amount of solar you have, how far you you mean by 'cruise for a week' ( 1 hour per day, 12 hours per day, 168 hours per week)

 

You ask an impossible question.