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phasing out of fossil fuels - programme


magpie patrick

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42 minutes ago, IanD said:

No Peter, I'm using figures for 3kW/4bhp power at the propellor for the diesel, which you keep ignoring. And please explain how any gearbox can lose 1kW from 3kW in, because this is utterly ridiculous -- no hand-waving, show some actual measured numbers or stop waffling like Boris ?

 

Don't forget that most of the power losses in a gearbox are when it's transmitting power through the gears, and (in a hydraulic box) driving the oil pump, which is driven off the input (engine) shaft. In a parallel hybrid under electric power the diesel engine is off (no power through the gears), the oil pump isn't running (no power), the clutches are disengaged (no power), so the only loss is turning the output shaft...

 

I don't see what the point you're trying to make is, the power vs. speed figures you gave for Finesse agree with what I came up with. All you're arguing about now is absolute power levels, and as I said if you go a bit more slowly it takes a lot less power. Some (deep-water) numbers from Vicprop to show this:

 

bhp     knots

1        2.3

2        2.9

3        3.3

4        3.7

6        4.2

8        4.6

10      5.0

 

2kW for Finesse to do 3mph on a canal agrees with my 3.5mph on 3kW at the prop (1400rpm Beta 43) -- or 3kW on the hybrid I proposed.

 

I'm agreeing with you, so what's your big problem?

 

[and you might as well stop focusing on the parallel hybrid, we both agree they're obsolete and the numbers -- as a I said -- were an example]

Sigh, you said in your original post that it would require 3kw to cruise, you based all your figures on this when in reality it only takes 2kw or maybe slightly less to cruise, this is based on real world boats.  You quoted a hybrid company that had done many boats so the assumption is that this company says it takes 3kw to drive one of their hybrid boats which are parallel drive so three quarters of the gearbox is in motion. On one of these gearboxes the output doesn't just doesn't turn one shaft its three shafts gears plus the bearings in thickish oil, which will easily absorb over one horsepower.  So I am saying all your figures are based on incorrect data, which is why my boat and other electric boats do better than you think they should. 

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6 minutes ago, NB DW said:

Just out of interest, what'd be a rough conversation cost of a diesel to a hybrid with a generator? 

I did mine very cheaply 2.5k for batteries, 1k for motor, controller and other bits and Bob's and 1.35k for genny plus 40 squids for new seals fitting to injection pump (I had removed it)

Now everything was secondhand, I think another 1k takes care of odds and sods and fuel to collect bits.

I sold the low engine hours Barrus Shire for 2.5k,  the costs for me wernt bad and all labour machining was one by me, most people don't have the facilities. 

In truth it's going to get cheaper in the future when kits start to become available, but not cheaper than my costs I am afraid. The job would be best done in conjunction with a knackered engine replacement because its automatically cheaper by about 8k

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7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I did mine very cheaply 2.5k for batteries, 1k for motor, controller and other bits and Bob's and 1.35k for genny plus 40 squids for new seals fitting to injection pump (I had removed it)

Now everything was secondhand, I think another 1k takes care of odds and sods and fuel to collect bits.

I sold the low engine hours Barrus Shire for 2.5k,  the costs for me wernt bad and all labour machining was one by me, most people don't have the facilities. 

In truth it's going to get cheaper in the future when kits start to become available, but not cheaper than my costs I am afraid. The job would be best done in conjunction with a knackered engine replacement because its automatically cheaper by about 8k

Wow, much cheaper than I thought!  But then there's been no labour costs.

 

To be honest, a lot of my dithering over getting a liveaboard now my house has sold - I exchanged contracts today(!) - is a £20k conversion cost from ICE to diesel.  I read the cost of a Beta Marina Hybrid install was up to £30k too.

 

So maybe 5 years or so from now a professional electric install including parts and a generator would be under £10K?  And the generators could be run from something other than red diesel?

 

Cheers,

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13 minutes ago, NB DW said:

Wow, much cheaper than I thought!  But then there's been no labour costs.

 

To be honest, a lot of my dithering over getting a liveaboard now my house has sold - I exchanged contracts today(!) - is a £20k conversion cost from ICE to diesel.  I read the cost of a Beta Marina Hybrid install was up to £30k too.

 

So maybe 5 years or so from now a professional electric install including parts and a generator would be under £10K?  And the generators could be run from something other than red diesel?

 

Cheers,

Your welcome, I think once more repurposed EV batteries become available costs will come down. In my case I had loads of solar already so I was most of the way there in some ways.

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14 hours ago, peterboat said:

Sigh, you said in your original post that it would require 3kw to cruise, you based all your figures on this when in reality it only takes 2kw or maybe slightly less to cruise, this is based on real world boats.  You quoted a hybrid company that had done many boats so the assumption is that this company says it takes 3kw to drive one of their hybrid boats which are parallel drive so three quarters of the gearbox is in motion. On one of these gearboxes the output doesn't just doesn't turn one shaft its three shafts gears plus the bearings in thickish oil, which will easily absorb over one horsepower.  So I am saying all your figures are based on incorrect data, which is why my boat and other electric boats do better than you think they should. 

This is like two bald men arguing over a comb... ?

 

I said that from my experience of diesel boats -- backed up by calculations -- at typical cruising speed the prop is absorbing about 3kW/4bhp. This also agrees with estimates from sites like Vicprop -- and before you rubbish them, in every case I've looked at for both diesel and electric power their recommended prop sizes are almost identical to manufacturers recommended ones, and their speed estimates vs..power also agree with other yachting sites.

 

Various sources -- not just Hybrid Marine -- agree that for battery capacity sizing 3kW is a good estimate for required propulsion power for an electric/hybrid narrowboat. Look up Integrel, Bellmarine, Waterworld -- it's a long list.

 

We can argue until the cows come home about gearbox losses but even if your estimates.(bases on no evidence) are right this is only relevent to one of the half a dozen sources I took data from.

 

So I'm happy to use this 3kW estimate.

 

As I keep pointing out -- but you keep ignoring -- dropping 0.5mph off the speed pulls this down to around 2kW/3mph in a deep canal, which then agrees with the numbers you now quote from Finesse.

 

So if you want to use 2kW, that's fine too.

 

This would be equivalent to about 1200rpm on a Beta 43, which for me (and many others) is slower than normal cruising speed -- but equally, other people travel more slowly, so for them this 2kW estimate is also fine.

 

So there's a rule of thumb for diesel boaters (with engines/props similar to a Beta 43) to decide how much power to allow if they're considering a hybrid; 3kW (my figure) if you normally cruise at 1400rpm, 2kW (your figure) if it's 1200rpm.

 

No need to argue about gearboxes ?

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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

This would be equivalent to about 1200rpm on a Beta 43, which for me (and many others) is slower than normal cruising speed -- but equally, other people travel more slowly, so for them this 2kW estimate is also fine.

 

OMG. Does that mean we will see a load of boats with a big sign dangled over the back saying "I'm going slow 'cause we are electric"?

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

OMG. Does that mean we will see a load of boats with a big sign dangled over the back saying "I'm going slow 'cause we are electric"?

No Bob I had a quick race last year the length of Eastwood moorings left him for dead! He was amazed that my boat was so fast off the mark. I am only bothered about silent cruising its just so relaxing, but that instant power is so good for stopping and manoeuvring 

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

OMG. Does that mean we will see a load of boats with a big sign dangled over the back saying "I'm going slow 'cause we are electric"?

We may see a lot more of these :

 

Ikon Slow Boat |

 

 

My offices in Wythenshawe (Manchester) were very close to the big dairy - when I was going into work at a round 7:00 am, was about the time that the fleet of milk-floats were returning from their rounds, every day there were at least a couple that hadn't quite made it back, and a few others creeping along at 0.001mph to try and make the last few 100 yards.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, IanD said:

This is like two bald men arguing over a comb... ?

 

I said that from my experience of diesel boats -- backed up by calculations -- at typical cruising speed the prop is absorbing about 3kW/4bhp. This also agrees with estimates from sites like Vicprop -- and before you rubbish them, in every case I've looked at for both diesel and electric power their recommended prop sizes are almost identical to manufacturers recommended ones, and their speed estimates vs..power also agree with other yachting sites.

 

Various sources -- not just Hybrid Marine -- agree that for battery capacity sizing 3kW is a good estimate for required propulsion power for an electric/hybrid narrowboat. Look up Integrel, Bellmarine, Waterworld -- it's a long list.

 

We can argue until the cows come home about gearbox losses but even if your estimates.(bases on no evidence) are right this is only relevent to one of the half a dozen sources I took data from.

 

So I'm happy to use this 3kW estimate.

 

As I keep pointing out -- but you keep ignoring -- dropping 0.5mph off the speed pulls this down to around 2kW/3mph in a deep canal, which then agrees with the numbers you now quote from Finesse.

 

So if you want to use 2kW, that's fine too.

 

This would be equivalent to about 1200rpm on a Beta 43, which for me (and many others) is slower than normal cruising speed -- but equally, other people travel more slowly, so for them this 2kW estimate is also fine.

 

So there's a rule of thumb for diesel boaters (with engines/props similar to a Beta 43) to decide how much power to allow if they're considering a hybrid; 3kW (my figure) if you normally cruise at 1400rpm, 2kW (your figure) if it's 1200rpm.

 

No need to argue about gearboxes ?

Cedric lynch knows more about electric motors and boats than most people, I have known him for years when I was first going to build a parallel hybrid he advised me not to but sold me the kit to do it ? as he had a canny Indian business partner. 

I never bothered as he was right so when I decided to do the bathtub as an experiment I asked Cedric for advice he gave me the benefit of his experience and I did the job. He wanted me to change the prop for  a bigger one that spins slowly but that was impossible due to boats design. Anyway 2 years ago he helped Ian convert his boat to electric it was old and originally had a steam engine in it so did have a large prop. Jayne and I went down for the weekend to have a go on this boat, it had a large solar canopy really good gearing (belt system) and went like the clappers! All day it spent doing trips on the river just on solar most of the time solar was supplying all its needs. As Cedric says an electric motor bares no resemblance to an ICE its much more like a steam engine. So electric boats need big slow spinning props to achieve the best from them. So Ian when you build your boat do that if possible to maximize your benefits 

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We may see a lot more of these :

 

Ikon Slow Boat |

 

 

My offices in Wuthenshawe (Manchester) were very close to the big dairy - when I was going into work at a round 7:00 am, was about the time that the fleet of milk-floats were returning from their rounds, every day there were at least a couple that hadn't quite made it back, and a few others creeping along at 0.001mph to try and make the last few 100 yards.

I have seen the same with electric forklifts that have knackered batteries. My mate Richard has a Smith's electric milk float, which will have solar on top to be a mobile bar, we call it Ernie..........

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6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have seen the same with electric forklifts that have knackered batteries. My mate Richard has a Smith's electric milk float, which will have solar on top to be a mobile bar, we call it Ernie..........

Real 'slapstick' comedy.

 

"D'you want it pasturize? 'Cause pasturize is best, "
She says, "Ernie, I'll be happy if it comes up to my chest."

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

OMG. Does that mean we will see a load of boats with a big sign dangled over the back saying "I'm going slow 'cause we are electric"?

Only if it's the same people who pootle along slowly in diesel boats... ?

 

(as Peter says, electric boats are just as fast as diesel if you want them to be, they've got plenty of power and accelerate faster)

 

To answer Peter's comment, I agree that a big prop turning slowly is always the best solution, it's why when I was looking at a parallel hybrid I was going to use a 2.8:1 gearbox with a 4 blade 20"x16" prop instead of the standard 2:1 with 3 blade 18"x12" prop.

 

Unfortunately with direct drive almost all electric motors spin too fast for this, most run at about 1500rpm at maximum torque/power means using a smaller prop (e.g. 14"x 9") -- or using an even bigger motor (e.g. 50% higher rating) at below rated speed (e.g. 1000rpm) to drive a bigger prop

 

The alternative is to use a gearbox (cost, losses...) or a toothed belt drive, which wears and tends to whine a bit and is likely to break if the prop jams suddenly on a piece or wood, there's no clutch to limit torque by slipping like in a gearbox. Lots of series hybrids today do this though, because it means you can use a much smaller cheaper high-speed motor and save several thousand quid...

Edited by IanD
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9 minutes ago, IanD said:

Only if it's the same people who pootle along slowly in diesel boats... ?

 

(as Peter says, electric boats are just as fast as diesel if you want them to be, they've got plenty of power and accelerate faster)

 

To answer Peter's comment, I agree that a big prop turning slowly is always the best solution, it's why when I was looking at a parallel hybrid I was going to use a 2.8:1 gearbox with a 4 blade 20"x16" prop instead of the standard 2:1 with 3 blade 18"x12" prop.

 

Unfortunately with direct drive almost all electric motors spin too fast for this, most run at about 1500rpm at maximum torque/power means using a smaller prop (e.g. 14"x 9") -- or using an even bigger motor (e.g. 50% higher rating) at below rated speed (e.g. 1000rpm) to drive a bigger prop

 

The alternative is to use a gearbox (cost, losses...) or a toothed belt drive, which wears and tends to whine a bit and is likely to break if the prop jams suddenly on a piece or wood, there's no clutch to limit torque by slipping like in a gearbox. Lots of series hybrids today do this though, because it means you can use a much smaller cheaper high-speed motor and save several thousand quid...

It's still worth thinking about a belt drive sometimes its best to have a weak link, I have nearly chopped a lump of wood in two! I truth it could have damaged the prop badly it was so hard a stop. 

I am going to take the time to add gearing this year for that very reason fingers crossed its the right choice 

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30 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It's still worth thinking about a belt drive sometimes its best to have a weak link, I have nearly chopped a lump of wood in two! I truth it could have damaged the prop badly it was so hard a stop. 

I am going to take the time to add gearing this year for that very reason fingers crossed its the right choice 

I don't think there's any risk to the motor or added prop damage with direct drive, the motor moment of inertia is much smaller than a typical propellor (rotor is much smaller diameter) so it's the prop that's difficult to stop when it hits something -- if it's going to get damaged having the motor attached won't make much difference.

 

It's down to horses for courses, a higher speed cheaper motor with belt drive (tend to whine, belt worries, small extra power loss) and a big prop (a bit more efficient, lower prop noise), or a bigger lower speed more expensive direct drive motor (quieter, no maintenance) with a smaller prop (a bit less efficient, more prop noise). Neither is perfect, you pays yer money and you takes yer choice ? 

 

Actually this is a case where a variable pitch prop would make a lot of sense, except for high cost and fragility... ?

 

Edited by IanD
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17 minutes ago, NB DW said:

Other than solid fuel, with diesel on its way out, what is there that would replace Eberspachers and the like for either radiator or blown air heating?

You can still use diesel powered heating, it is just 'propulsion' that is being legislated for, but you can of course 're-jet' the heaters and use domestic heating oil, or even use LPG powered heating.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You can still use diesel powered heating, it is just 'propulsion' that is being legislated for, but you can of course 're-jet' the heaters and use domestic heating oil, or even use LPG powered heating.

Cheers.

 

It was more diesel availability and cost in years to come which made me wonder what'll become of diesel heating systems.

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

I don't think there's any risk to the motor or added prop damage with direct drive, the motor moment of inertia is much smaller than a typical propellor (rotor is much smaller diameter) so it's the prop that's difficult to stop when it hits something -- if it's going to get damaged having the motor attached won't make much difference.

 

It's down to horses for courses, a higher speed cheaper motor with belt drive (tend to whine, belt worries, small extra power loss) and a big prop (a bit more efficient, lower prop noise), or a bigger lower speed more expensive direct drive motor (quieter, no maintenance) with a smaller prop (a bit less efficient, more prop noise). Neither is perfect, you pays yer money and you takes yer choice ? 

 

Actually this is a case where a variable pitch prop would make a lot of sense, except for high cost and fragility... ?

 

I looked at a variable pitch prop and discounted it they are to fragile and my lump of wood would have destroyed it.

I have to motors to play with and will have a play with the lynch motor out of the bathtub with its belt drive gearbox, will source a new controller to go with it maybe, although the curtis one will work I think so I will suck it and see

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12 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

2 speed toothed belt drive with change over clutch? 

No need I have a high speed lynch motor, at higher speeds cooling is better and gearing ups its torque meaning a bigger prop is a better choice. I can have a play at this because I have both a low speed direct drive and a high speed one with belt gearbox so I am willing to play to see which is best for the job. In truth for a lot of boaters (London ones), the cheaper the system the better for their 2 week change over would work. In the future land based emissions might apply to them so would they want to spend 30k? Or much less for their short haul needs

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