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phasing out of fossil fuels - programme


magpie patrick

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45 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you aware of the Government 'Maritime 2050' plan ?

Where ..........

 

By 2025 ALL new boats sold must be capable of being conveted to zero emission propulsion

By 2035 NO new boats, that are not zero emission propulsion, may be sold

By 2050 NO boats (old or new) will be allowed on UK inland or territorial waters unless they are zero emission propulsion.

 

Pretty much all boats in existance or being currently built must either be scrapped or have their propulsion syatem zero emission by 2050.

 

Zero propulsion does not simply mean Electric.

The Government are working on a number of technolgies.

 

I'm not technically minded and don't understand most of what's said on this thread in terms of conversions, but my understanding is that people are managing to convert existing boats to electric etc.  Basically, there's nothing stopping a conversion other than your wallet and will.

 

Even if somebody were to get a fairly new boat now, by 2050 its value would be pretty limited by then as it's going to be 40+ years old.

 

The positive I'm taking from all of this is that an accepted and workable solution can't be far off if it's going to be mandatory in fewer than 15 years from now.  So those with ICE don't have to wait too much longer for scrapping their engines and converting.  That is, I'm assuming, it's as simple as that, i.e. there's no change in engine bay size or structure or whatever on newer boats which would mean conversion of an older boat wouldn't be possible.

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

 

I thought the algae was just feedstock for biodiesel, nothing to do with "spare" renewable electricity.

 

It is, but it needs 'leccy to process it and it can only be claimed to be zero emission (from source to use) if it is produced with zero emission electricity.

Currently 'windmill' operators are being paid to turn them off at times of low demand (nightime for example) and the propsal is to use this 'surplus' to produce the E-Diesel.

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46 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you aware of the Government 'Maritime 2050' plan ?

Where ..........

 

By 2025 ALL new boats sold must be capable of being conveted to zero emission propulsion

By 2035 NO new boats, that are not zero emission propulsion, may be sold

By 2050 NO boats (old or new) will be allowed on UK inland or territorial waters unless they are zero emission propulsion.

 

Pretty much all boats in existance or being currently built must either be scrapped or have their propulsion syatem zero emission by 2050.

 

Zero propulsion does not simply mean Electric.

The Government are working on a number of technolgies.

 

 

Yes I am aware of changes coming from 2025 for new boats and the plan to make all boats 'green' eventually. But that is presently a long way off and I would not be in the least bit surprised to find that the tax on marine diesel gets increasingly hiked to encourage the switch. In fact I would put money on it happening.

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1 minute ago, NB DW said:

Even if somebody were to get a fairly new boat now, by 2050 its value would be pretty limited by then as it's going to be 40+ years old

We are now in 2021, 2050 is only 29 years away.

I'd hazard a guess that a very high percentage of boats on the cut today are well over 29 years old so why would the next 20 odd years be any different ?

 

New boats being built in the next few years will have a huge depreciation if £20,000 - £30,000 is going to need to be spent on them before they can be used after 2050.

 

It won't be affecting me so I dont really worry about it, but hate to see newbies who haven't done their due diligence and have a £250,000 widebeam built which will almost worthless as we approach 2050.

A bit like trying to sell a leasehold house with less that 90 years left on the leasehold.

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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Most importantly, using Crown HVO diesel reduces greenhouse gas emissions by up to 90%, significantly reducing your operational footprint.

 

It is hardly 'zero emission' tho is it ?

Still putting out 10% of the emissions that dino-diesel emits.

 

The 'zero emission' at propulsion (which seems to be what is being targetted) does not look like it would be achieved by HVO, although it look as if HVO could be used to generate electricity, which could then provide zero emission propulsion via batteries and a motor.

 

The only 'diesel fuel' that actually gives Zero emission at propulsion would appear to be the 'Algae' development which is still too early in its development cycle to be productionised.

It can be manufactured using the surplus electricity from 'windmills' rather than paying the operators to turn them off.

But a 90% reduction is a huge improvement and a non-fossil fuel source. There is another 29 years  to find ways to improve on that . Also if bio fuel becomes more available and demand from road vehicles reduces  the price may reduce. 

 

In the Clean Maritime Plan a change to bio fuel  it is an acceptable solution, among others - see below. .  

 

Table 1: Technologies and fuels on a pathway to zero-emission shipping Technology/Fuel Technology/fuel usage Further detail Alternative fuel propulsion Methanol Can be used directly in an internal combustion engine or fuel cell. Can be used as a fuel itself or a store for hydrogen. Hydrogen Can be used as an input to ammonia or methanol production as well as a fuel itself. Ammonia Can either be used as a fuel itself, or as a carrier for hydrogen before the hydrogen is used as the fuel. Biofuels Used directly in an internal combustion engine. Various types of biofuels from different sources of biomass (e.g. crops, wastes) possible.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We are now in 2021, 2050 is only 29 years away.

I'd hazard a guess that a very high percentage of boats on the cut today are well over 29 years old so why would the next 20 odd years be any different ?

 

New boats being built in the next few years will have a huge depreciation if £20,000 - £30,000 is going to need to be spent on them before they can be used after 2050.

 

It won't be affecting me so I dont really worry about it, but hate to see newbies who haven't done their due diligence and have a £250,000 widebeam built which will almost worthless as we approach 2050.

A bit like trying to sell a leasehold house with less that 90 years left on the leasehold.

I'm not sure of the average cost of a new boat is but let's say it's £85k.  In 29 years it'd surely have done most of it's depreciating regardless of meeting the regulations or not?  What'd it be worth, in today's money, £30-35k?  But because of regulations they'll have no value unless converted, as the cost of conversions will be as great as the value of the boat itself?

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

But a 90% reduction is a huge improvement and a non-fossil fuel source. There is another 29 years  to find ways to improve on that . Also if bio fuel becomes more available and demand from road vehicles reduces  the price may reduce. 

 

In the Clean Maritime Plan a change to bio fuel  it is an acceptable solution, among others - see below. .  

 

Table 1: Technologies and fuels on a pathway to zero-emission shipping Technology/Fuel Technology/fuel usage Further detail Alternative fuel propulsion Methanol Can be used directly in an internal combustion engine or fuel cell. Can be used as a fuel itself or a store for hydrogen. Hydrogen Can be used as an input to ammonia or methanol production as well as a fuel itself. Ammonia Can either be used as a fuel itself, or as a carrier for hydrogen before the hydrogen is used as the fuel. Biofuels Used directly in an internal combustion engine. Various types of biofuels from different sources of biomass (e.g. crops, wastes) possible.

 

 

How come cars haven't gone down this route instead of electric?

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think that is a considerable undervalue.

Can you explain where you got that figure from ?

I wasn't looking for a debate over the values, as I said, I'm not certain on the average.

 

Typical cost per ft for a new boat is maybe £1,700, and say the average size is 50ft.  Around £85k+ isn't a million miles out is it.  But let's say it's £100k, the point still stands in respect of depreciation.  Once at 30 years old it'd likely have hit the worst of the curve by then.

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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It won't be affecting me so I dont really worry about it, but hate to see newbies who haven't done their due diligence and have a £250,000 widebeam built which will almost worthless as we approach 2050.

 

It will not be worthless - just put HVO, or the like , in it.

I have little doubt new canal boats will all be electric in the next ten years , if not sooner.

Nor do I see conversion  from diesel to electric being beyond consideration especially  as the means to do so becomes more readily available.

 

Alan  , What are you going to do with your boats ? Sell now while the prices are good?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Yes, and catalytic converters, DPFs, AdBlue and turbos will increase purchase and running costs.

 

Plus with fossil fuels being increasingly demonised pressure will grow on the government to increase fuel tax to encourage people to switch to cleaner and/or renewable sources of energy for everything including boat propulsion. And boat owners would be a soft target if the government wanted to particularly increase taxes on non-essential use of fossil fuels.

 

On a different note, is anyone aware of the new solar panels coming in a year or two? Currently approx 20% of the sun's energy can be converted to electricity with a photovoltaic solar panel in real-world conditions. The new panels are said to be approx 30% efficient - again in real-world conditions (approx 40% in a lab, apparently). I understand several PV manufacturers are in early production planning stages.

I don't like gin. I like wine.

 

There have been lots of promised improvements on solar panel efficiency, and most of them fell by the wayside because they do work fine in the lab but are either too expensive for mass production or use rare materials or complex production processes or all the above -- 50% higher efficiency (30% instead of 20%) sounds great, but not at several times the cost because what matters most in the big markets is cost per kW. Monosilicon panels use cheap plentiful raw materials and are simple to make, which is why they dominate the market today.

 

If you're talking about perovskite panels these are relatively simple, maybe these will be able to delivery higher efficiency without higher cost per kW, we'll have to wait and see -- but they have to catch up with monosilicon panels being produced in vast quantities at very low cost.

 

If you mean the exotic multi-layer panels using rare earths which keep setting new efficiency records, these might succeed in solar concentrators where higher efficiency justifies the high cost, but there is zero chance of them ever getting close to monosilicon panels in either cost per kW or huge volume production.

 

This is why I'm sceptical about big efficiency improvements. Like Peter I do think as much solar as possible on a boat is a great idea, but unlike him I think that on narrowboats it simply can't provide enough power to eliminate the need for a generator, unless you have a very energy-frugal lifestyle, don't travel much, and don't travel at all in winter.

 

Peter can fit about 2.5x the panel area on his wideboat so the numbers come out completely different compared to a narrowboat -- he's right to be enthusiastic about solar because it works for him, but it won't work anything like as well for most people, especially if they want/need to move more than he does.

 

Even 1.5x more efficient solar panels won't change this for the majority of boaters, solar power alone still won't be enough.

 

Edited by IanD
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12 minutes ago, IanD said:

If you're talking about perovskite panels these are relatively simple, maybe these will be able to delivery higher efficiency without higher cost per kW, we'll have to wait and see -- but they have to catch up with monosilicon panels being produced in vast quantities at very low cost.

 

Yes, perovskite solar panels.

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21 minutes ago, IanD said:

Peter can fit about 2.5x the panel area on his wideboat so the numbers come out completely different compared to a narrowboat

 

I have been idly wondering about a mounting arrangement for domestic solar panels that would allow you to have 2 panels side by side when moored that stack one above the other for transit.  In theory it should allow you twice the roof solar at a cost of another couple of inches of air draught when moving.

 

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8 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I have been idly wondering about a mounting arrangement for domestic solar panels that would allow you to have 2 panels side by side when moored that stack one above the other for transit.  In theory it should allow you twice the roof solar at a cost of another couple of inches of air draught when moving.

 

An interesting idea, but I doubt if you'd be allowed to do it because when swung out the edges of the panels would stick out over the towpath and/or the canal; one is a safety hazard to pedestrians and especially bike riders (though I'm sure some would say this is a good thing, they might change their mind after one gets decapitated...), the other is a safety hazard to passing boats and people on them.

 

If they don't stick out then the area gain wouldn't be enough to make it worthwhile...

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9 hours ago, NB DW said:

 

How come cars haven't gone down this route instead of electric?

I guess  there isn't enough biofuel available at the moment . We don't want fuel crops to result in reduced food crop production do we.

But with most new cars electric any remaining diesel cars , tractors etc  could use biofuel - not now but in 20 years or whenever.

 

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10 hours ago, MartynG said:

It will not be worthless - just put HVO, or the like , in it.

I have little doubt new canal boats will all be electric in the next ten years , if not sooner.

Nor do I see conversion  from diesel to electric being beyond consideration especially  as the means to do so becomes more readily available.

 

Alan  , What are you going to do with your boats ? Sell now while the prices are good?

 

 

 

They will still be diesel powered when I depart to that big marina in the sky, (which I expect to be prior to 2050)

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10 hours ago, NB DW said:

 

I'm not technically minded and don't understand most of what's said on this thread in terms of conversions, but my understanding is that people are managing to convert existing boats to electric etc.  Basically, there's nothing stopping a conversion other than your wallet and will.

 

Even if somebody were to get a fairly new boat now, by 2050 its value would be pretty limited by then as it's going to be 40+ years old.

 

The positive I'm taking from all of this is that an accepted and workable solution can't be far off if it's going to be mandatory in fewer than 15 years from now.  So those with ICE don't have to wait too much longer for scrapping their engines and converting.  That is, I'm assuming, it's as simple as that, i.e. there's no change in engine bay size or structure or whatever on newer boats which would mean conversion of an older boat wouldn't be possible.

No old boats can be converted I have done two annd am helping someone do a third. If I was choosing a Narrowboat for conversion I would go for a 72 foot trad with engine room for the batteries, genny, electric motor, controllers etc it would make a very easy job, plus the large roof would fit a lot of solar. I had thought of swapping my widebeam for one but dont think I could live with the lack of space.

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9 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I have been idly wondering about a mounting arrangement for domestic solar panels that would allow you to have 2 panels side by side when moored that stack one above the other for transit.  In theory it should allow you twice the roof solar at a cost of another couple of inches of air draught when moving.

 

Surely that would not be productive for people who cruise 'most days' as by the time they moor up much of the best of the Sun would be 'gone'.

I guess if you cruise for one day, moor up for 13 days then it would be a good option.

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10 hours ago, IanD said:

There have been lots of promised improvements on solar panel efficiency, and most of them fell by the wayside because they do work fine in the lab but are either too expensive for mass production or use rare materials or complex production processes or all the above -- 50% higher efficiency (30% instead of 20%) sounds great, but not at several times the cost because what matters most in the big markets is cost per kW. Monosilicon panels use cheap plentiful raw materials and are simple to make, which is why they dominate the market today.

 

If you're talking about perovskite panels these are relatively simple, maybe these will be able to delivery higher efficiency without higher cost per kW, we'll have to wait and see -- but they have to catch up with monosilicon panels being produced in vast quantities at very low cost.

 

If you mean the exotic multi-layer panels using rare earths which keep setting new efficiency records, these might succeed in solar concentrators where higher efficiency justifies the high cost, but there is zero chance of them ever getting close to monosilicon panels in either cost per kW or huge volume production.

 

This is why I'm sceptical about big efficiency improvements. Like Peter I do think as much solar as possible on a boat is a great idea, but unlike him I think that on narrowboats it simply can't provide enough power to eliminate the need for a generator, unless you have a very energy-frugal lifestyle, don't travel much, and don't travel at all in winter.

 

Peter can fit about 2.5x the panel area on his wideboat so the numbers come out completely different compared to a narrowboat -- he's right to be enthusiastic about solar because it works for him, but it won't work anything like as well for most people, especially if they want/need to move more than he does.

 

Even 1.5x more efficient solar panels won't change this for the majority of boaters, solar power alone still won't be enough.

 

Exactly when panels can be molded to boats things will change rapidly, but they will have to be tough to stand the scratching etc of boatlife. It might be a little dull all boats looking the same but thats better than no boating

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Surely that would not be productive for people who cruise 'most days' as by the time they moor up much of the best of the Sun would be 'gone'.

I guess if you cruise for one day, moor up for 13 days then it would be a good option.

Alan you dont have to If its sunny, I can move every day as solar produces more than I use. especially going to Sheffield with all the locks!!

But normally I try and move every other day, as I like to wander around the area with the dogs, I have found moving daily boring from day one so nothing has changed. the worst journeys of my life have been the 10 hours plus everyday ones when on a mission, totally crap and boring

Edited by peterboat
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1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

You make the algae using low level heat that comes from the 'spare' electrickery.

The last I heard all the spare electrickery was going to be used for Hydrogen production a better use in my mind than producing biodiesel

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11 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Alan you dont have to If its sunny, I can move every day as solar produces more than I use. especially going to Sheffield with all the locks!!

But normally I try and move every other day, as I like to wander around the area with the dogs, I have found moving daily boring from day one so nothing has changed. the worst journeys of my life have been the 10 hours plus everyday ones when on a mission, totally crap and boring

But, rememeber you have 3x the capacity for solar that a NB can have.

 

The suggestion was to have 'unfolding' (butterfly wings) of solar panels, whilst I ageed that it would be useful for days when you don't move, many people move  for several hours per day, several days per week.

 

For those who do move a couple of hours a week it sounds like a good idea.

 

For those that do move frequently most of the time they would only get the benefit of the 'top layer' of panels.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But, rememeber you have 3x the capacity for solar that a NB can have.

 

The suggestion was to have 'unfolding' (butterfly wings) of solar panels, whilst I ageed that it would be useful for days when you don't move, many people move  for several hours per day, several days per week.

 

For those who do move a couple of hours a week it sounds like a good idea.

 

For those that do move frequently most of the time they would only get the benefit of the 'top layer' of panels.

I use more power to move though Alan so its swings and ladders, people that say 1.5 litres an hour moves a boat dont have a widebeam! I would say 2.5 litres an hour is more realistic. The ideal is a 72 trad lots of roof room and good waterline length plus room for a big slow spinning prop

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25 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The last I heard all the spare electrickery was going to be used for Hydrogen production a better use in my mind than producing biodiesel

I didn't say it was a good idea to make biodiesel!

When you burn biodiesel it still makes 3 times its weight in CO2 so we are still all doomed. What then is the point? Hydrogen may work but I have 30 years experience working in BP watching them trying to develop fuel cells and hydrogen storage. Yes it works but it has never been at commercial prices. I really can't see that changing if there are cheaper solutions. Maybe some sort of portable methanol or hydrogen fuel cell but more reliance on batteries is the way to go. If half the population bought Teslas then we can all (well the 75% who have drives) plug in overnight and store all that free electrickerty to be given back to the network during the day.

Battery technology will advance hugely in the future. Just think where we were with batteries 30 years ago! In another 30 years the world will be a very different place. We'll probably be getting to lockdown number 69. 

Did I mention biodiesel is carp?

 

 

Edited by Dr Bob
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10 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I didn't say it was a good idea to make biodiesel!

When you burn biodiesel it still makes 3 times its weight in CO2 so we are still all doomed. What then is the point? Hydrogen may work but I have 30 years experience working in BP watching them trying to develop fuel cells and hydrogen storage. Yes it works but it has never been at commercial prices. I really can't see that changing if there are cheaper solutions. Maybe some sort of portable methanol or hydrogen fuel cell but more reliance on batteries is the way to go. If half the population bought Teslas then we can all (well the 75% who have drives) plug in overnight and store all that free electrickerty to be given back to the network during the day.

Battery technology will advance hugely in the future. Just think where we were with batteries 30 years ago! In another 30 years the world will be a very different place. We'll probably be getting to lockdown number 69. 

Did I mention biodiesel is carp?

 

 

Surely the whole cycle of biodiesel is not far off carbon neutral?  Burning creates CO2 but presumably in similar quantiies to the CO2 absorbed by growing the crops in the first place.  So the only net increase would be due to processing.  Am I wrong?

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