phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[Jackofalltrades]

14 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Very nice bet it cost a lot more than my 6kw old vetus unit?

It would have cost the previous owner a lot more, yes ?

 

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Generator diesel consumption.

 

Here's the spec sheet for the generator installed on our sailing boat:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55c3192ce4b099b364749dbb/t/55c88178e4b035759ce3bb2f/1439203704637/Paguro-6500-8500-Marine-Generator.pdf

 

Fuel consumption is stated as: 0.35 l/KW/h

 

Thank you, a real figure at last -- or at least, apparently real... ?

 

Is a single figure of 0.35l/kWh likely to be correct for all 3 generators? (7.5kW/9.5kW/17.5kW) with different engines and systems?

 

Just to annoy Peter, here are the Betagen numbers for similar power rating:

 

Betagen 10 : 7.1kW @ 2.7l/h = 0.38l/kWh

Betagen 14 : 10.1kW @ 3.6l/h = 0.36l/kWh

Betagen 21 : 14.1kW @ 4.7l/h = 0.33l/kWh

 

So are the Paguros similar (bigger generator = more efficient), and if so which fuel consumption number did they pick -- the average for all the models, or the best?

 

All of which is why a figure of 0.3l/kWh for all sizes from 3kVA to 200kVA (see earlier in thread) looks like Powerpoint to me.

 

Like I keep saying, the devil's in the details...

 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

It would have cost the previous owner a lot more, yes ?

 

Bargain ?

[cuthound]

34 minutes ago, IanD said:

All I can say is -- go and look at the fuel consumption numbers (making sure to use real kW output not kVA), all the marine 10kVA generators are similar.

 

If they're all the same but 25% or so worse than all the ones you measured there has to be a reason. Were you taking output in kVA not kW, that would explain it?

 

(Betagen 10 at "prime output" (continuous) is 2.7l/hr to put out 7.1kW (31A/230V) or 8.8kVA)

 

Using kVA instead of kW (PF=0.8) would exactly explain the ~25% differences -- but kW (real amps*volts) is what matters for going into a combo which charges a battery bank, which is why I used it.

The back-up back-up plan (I'd already used the back-up plan, both were scuppered by the weather, don't expect hurricanes in August in England...) was not getting back to the boatyard on time ?

Do grow up, Peter... ?

 

The reasons for using Beta as examples for calculation is that they're very widely used, and also publish detailed data sheets with full information in them so you can actually work out what's really going on. Unlike Barrus Shire who you picked to quote wrong numbers from... ?

 

Load tests were either done with resistive load banks at kVA x 0.8 to give a typical kW or more recently since about 2000 with reactive load banks.

 

Beta are a tiny engine marinisation company who sell to a cottage industry.

 

I would trust the measurements of major engine manufacturers such a Cummins and Mitsubishi and their approved generator suplpiers such as Broadcrown, Simply Generators, FG Wilson etc.

 

Why not phone them and ask if 0.3 litres per kWh is a realistic real life fuel consumption?

 

You seem to rely too much on marketing information and not enough on real life experience.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Load tests were either done with resistive load banks at kVA x 0.8 to give a typical kW or more recently since about 2000 with reactive load banks.

 

Beta are a tiny engine marinisation company who sell to a cottage industry.

 

I would trust the measurements of major engine manufacturers such a Cummins and Mitsubishi and their approved generator suplpiers such as Broadcrown, Simply Generators, FG Wilson etc.

 

Why not phone them and ask if 0.3 litres per kWh is a realistic real life fuel consumption?

 

You seem to rely too much on marketing information and not enough on real life experience.

Most of the manufacturers you named mainly make big industrial generators, and I would expect these to be more efficient than small marine ones.

 

The Paguro numbers match the Beta ones -- are they a tiny company?

 

The Victron efficiency measurements (which matched the Beta ones) were for Onan, Westerbeke, Fischer-Panda, Northern Winds -- are they tiny companies too?

 

I'm not saying you're wring, I'm genuinely trying to explain the difference between the numbers you came up with and the numbers from all these sources. Do you have any explanation?

 

And I still don't believe the "0.30l/kWh for all sizes from 3kVa to 200kVA" table -- it looks like marketing bullsh*t, and it smells like marketing bullsh*t...

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Most of the manufacturers you named mainly make big industrial generators, and I would expect these to be more efficient than small marine ones.

 

The Paguro numbers match the Beta ones -- are they a tiny company?

 

The Victron efficiency measurements (which matched the Beta ones) were for Onan, Westerbeke, Fischer-Panda, Northern Winds -- are they tiny companies too?

 

I'm not saying you're wring, I'm genuinely trying to explain the difference between the numbers you came up with and the numbers from all these sources. Do you have any explanation?

 

And I still don't believe the "0.30l/kWh for all sizes from 3kVa to 200kVA" table -- it looks like marketing bullsh*t, and it smells like marketing bullsh*t...

 

No reason why industrial generators should be more efficient. Change is slow in the critical power industry because reliability is paramount.

 

As I said if you dont beliwve the 0.3 litres per kWh call a big generator company. Most make generators in the range of 10-2000kVA.

 

Yes the companies you mention are small compared to the likes of Cummins and Mitsubishi.

 

 

[IanD]

57 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

No reason why industrial generators should be more efficient. Change is slow in the critical power industry because reliability is paramount.

 

As I said if you dont beliwve the 0.3 litres per kWh call a big generator company. Most make generators in the range of 10-2000kVA.

 

Yes the companies you mention are small compared to the likes of Cummins and Mitsubishi.

 

 

Onan Cummins MDKDL marine generator (very similar to Betagen 10, even uses the same Kubota engine) is 2.8l/hr at 7.0kW, which is 0.4l/kWh. Betagen is 2.7l/HR at 7.1kW which is 0.38l/kWh.

 

So is bigger better? Over to you... ?

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[Jackofalltrades]

Arguing about a fraction of a fraction of a litre of diesel ?

 

A first world problem I guess!

 

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Arguing about a fraction of a fraction of a litre of diesel ?

 

A first world problem I guess!

 

 

Or conversely a 33% increase in fuel consumption and emissions - a whole world problem.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Arguing about a fraction of a fraction of a litre of diesel ?

 

A first world problem I guess!

 

Since we can't sit in pubs arguing about something over a beer and banging the table, this is an inferior substitute... ?

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

42 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Arguing about a fraction of a fraction of a litre of diesel ?

 

A first world problem I guess!

 

 

39 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Or conversely a 33% increase in fuel consumption and emissions - a whole world problem.

 

33 minutes ago, IanD said:

Since we can't sit in pubs arguing about something over a beer and banging the table, this is an inferior substitute... ?

The issue will be if boat builders have to meet real emissions regulations, they will have to fit catalytic converters, DPF and add blue to do it, plus more than likely be turbocharged as well smaller engine running more efficiently. This will mean that watercooled exhaust will be gone as well, this is serious stuff 

Edited January 13, 2021 by peterboat

[Jackofalltrades]

30 minutes ago, IanD said:

Since we can't sit in pubs arguing about something over a beer and banging the table, this is an inferior substitute... ?

A good point. Well made.

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

A good point. Well made.

I m having a lovely gin whilst partaking in the debate ?

[LadyG]

5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I m having a lovely gin whilst partaking in the debate ?

Sloe Gin on offer at Morrisons, £14, It's OK, but made a great cocktail with vodka and tonic, I've been given some large glasses, so no more tiny tots

Edited January 13, 2021 by LadyG

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Sloe Gin on offer at Morrisons, £14, It's OK, but made a great cocktail with vodka and tonic, I've been given some large glasses, so no more tiny tots

I am on cloudy lemon but sloe gin is good, looks like off to Morrisons tomorrow cheers 

Edited January 13, 2021 by peterboat

[Jackofalltrades]

18 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

 

The issue will be if boat builders have to meet real emissions regulations, they will have to fit catalytic converters, DPF and add blue to do it work, plus more than likely be turbocharged as well smaller engine running more efficiently. This will mean that watercooled exhaust will be gone as well, this is serious stuff 

Yes, and catalytic converters, DPFs, AdBlue and turbos will increase purchase and running costs.

 

Plus with fossil fuels being increasingly demonised pressure will grow on the government to increase fuel tax to encourage people to switch to cleaner and/or renewable sources of energy for everything including boat propulsion. And boat owners would be a soft target if the government wanted to particularly increase taxes on non-essential use of fossil fuels.

 

On a different note, is anyone aware of the new solar panels coming in a year or two? Currently approx 20% of the sun's energy can be converted to electricity with a photovoltaic solar panel in real-world conditions. The new panels are said to be approx 30% efficient - again in real-world conditions (approx 40% in a lab, apparently). I understand several PV manufacturers are in early production planning stages.

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I m having a lovely gin whilst partaking in the debate ?

I don't like gin. I like wine.

 

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Yes, and catalytic converters, DPFs, AdBlue and turbos will increase purchase and running costs.

 

Plus with fossil fuels being increasingly demonised pressure will grow on the government to increase fuel tax to encourage people to switch to cleaner and/or renewable sources of energy for everything including boat propulsion. And boat owners would be a soft target if the government wanted to particularly increase taxes on non-essential use of fossil fuels.

 

On a different note, is anyone aware of the new solar panels coming in a year or two? Currently approx 20% of the sun's energy can be converted to electricity with a photovoltaic solar panel in real-world conditions. The new panels are said to be approx 30% efficient - again in real-world conditions (approx 40% in a lab, apparently). I understand several PV manufacturers are in early production planning stages.

I don't like gin. I like wine.

 

Ian and I had the solar debate a while ago, I like you because of my experience think they are the future he doesn't think they will do it. I have 4.6kws of solar on my boat and it works for me, however I fancy going constant cruising so hence the genny rather than sticking with the whispergen 

Unfortunately the gennys will have to have the equipment to clean up emissions as well, fortunately we will hopefully have beat the regulations 

Edited January 13, 2021 by peterboat

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

...........if the government wanted to particularly increase taxes on non-essential use of fossil fuels.

Maybe non essential everything should be taxed? eg all forms of travel , sex unless officially authorised to reproduction purposes, beer , wine etc

 

 

[Jackofalltrades]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Ian and I had the solar debate a while ago, I like you because of my experience think they are the future he doesn't think they will do it. I have 4.6kws of solar on my boat and it works for me, however I fancy going constant cruising so hence the genny rather than sticking with the whispergen 

Unfortunately the gennys will have to have the equipment to clean up emissions as well, fortunately we will hopefully have beat the regulations 

We plan to constantly cruise for approx 8 months of the year. We'll constantly cruise more slowly when the weather isn't conducive to PVs doing their stuff or if we really want to move (moored next to someone who keeps telling us that our system won't work ? ) then we'll fire up the generator. Both ends of our cruising year will require some generator use too but we hope to minimise that by staying in one spot for several days where possible to minimise fuel use & pollution.

 

[Jackofalltrades]

2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Maybe...

Martyn, the government is coming under increasing pressure to phase out fossil fuels. It doesn't take a genius to work out that they may well go after the easy targets first - one of which would be leisure boats. As almost all leisure boats get their fuel from marinas and boat yards it would be very easy for non-commercial purchase of marine fuel to be taxed at a higher rate. I'm not saying it will happen - I know nothing - but I can easily see that it might, and probably at some point will.

 

Regardless, there is already increasing societal pressure to reduce carbon emissions. And then there's diesel particulates from old diesel engines... The lung damage caused by pollution and the effect it has on life expectancy is now known and (mostly) accepted. The problem won't go away on its own.  And in my humble opinion, we should all take our fair share of responsibility for it and take mitigating action if and/or when we can.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Martyn, the government is coming under increasing pressure to phase out fossil fuels. It doesn't take a genius to work out that they may well go after the easy targets first - one of which would be leisure boats. As almost all leisure boats get their fuel from marinas and boat yards it would be very easy for non-commercial purchase of marine fuel to be taxed at a higher rate. I'm not saying it will happen - I know nothing - but I can easily see that it might, and probably at some point will.

 

Are you aware of the Government 'Maritime 2050' plan ?

Where ..........

 

By 2025 ALL new boats sold must be capable of being conveted to zero emission propulsion

By 2035 NO new boats, that are not zero emission propulsion, may be sold

By 2050 NO boats (old or new) will be allowed on UK inland or territorial waters unless they are zero emission propulsion.

 

Pretty much all boats in existance or being currently built must either be scrapped or have their propulsion syatem zero emission by 2050.

 

Zero propulsion does not simply mean Electric.

The Government are working on a number of technolgies.

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Pretty much all boats in existence or being currently built must either be scrapped or have their propulsion system zero emission by 2050.

 

In the case of a diesel engine compliance can be achieved by switching fuel  to HVO, which is available now at about 20p per litre above the cost of diesel.

https://www.crownoil.co.uk/products/hvo-fuel-hydrotreated-vegetable-oil/?utm_keyword=biodiesel&gclid=Cj0KCQiA0fr_BRDaARIsAABw4Evq8vtR9i3RppDLirdIY5sfXD-nS6HxzSZvlDx7NcaHT8Ck6rk0TxoaApSUEALw_wcB

 

.

 

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

In the case of a diesel engine compliance can be achieved by switching fuel  to HVO, which is available now at about 20p per litre above the cost of diesel.

https://www.crownoil.co.uk/products/hvo-fuel-hydrotreated-vegetable-oil/?utm_keyword=biodiesel&gclid=Cj0KCQiA0fr_BRDaARIsAABw4Evq8vtR9i3RppDLirdIY5sfXD-nS6HxzSZvlDx7NcaHT8Ck6rk0TxoaApSUEALw_wcB

 

.

 

I have an account with them, but will burn full biodiesel which is made local, its 80 pence a litre as it's for the genny. Also as it's collected waste vegetable oil it's a bit greener for me and its local so less transport emissions 

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, MartynG said:

In the case of a diesel engine compliance can be achieved by switching fuel  to HVO, which is available now at about 20p per litre above the cost of diesel.

https://www.crownoil.co.uk/products/hvo-fuel-hydrotreated-vegetable-oil/?utm_keyword=biodiesel&gclid=Cj0KCQiA0fr_BRDaARIsAABw4Evq8vtR9i3RppDLirdIY5sfXD-nS6HxzSZvlDx7NcaHT8Ck6rk0TxoaApSUEALw_wcB

 

.

 

Most importantly, using Crown HVO diesel reduces greenhouse gas emissions by up to 90%, significantly reducing your operational footprint.

 

It is hardly 'zero emission' tho is it ?

Still putting out 10% of the emissions that dino-diesel emits.

 

The 'zero emission' at propulsion (which seems to be what is being targetted) does not look like it would be achieved by HVO, although it look as if HVO could be used to generate electricity, which could then provide zero emission propulsion via batteries and a motor.

 

The only 'diesel fuel' that actually gives Zero emission at propulsion would appear to be the 'Algae' development which is still too early in its development cycle to be productionised.

It can be manufactured using the surplus electricity from 'windmills' rather than paying the operators to turn them off.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The only 'diesel fuel' that actually gives Zero emission at propulsion would appear to be the 'Algae' development which is still too early in its development cycle to be productionised.

It can be manufactured using the surplus electricity from 'windmills' rather than paying the operators to turn them off.

 

Algae or Green Ammonia?

 

I thought the algae was just feedstock for biodiesel, nothing to do with "spare" renewable electricity.