phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

As a percentage in the UK they wouldnt register the numbers are so small

Ian proper boaters dont push the tide or current on the Trent, It uses huge amounts of fuel for nothing. I have been on the Trent more times than I can remember on many different boats, it was only on a massive Gin Palace did we push the tide all other times we went with it.

You are quite fortunate in that experience - others of us have found how conditions can change without warning. In particular on total sections predictions on when to transit are based on a small difference between two large numbers (tide versos fresh) where only small change in either force have a dramatic effect.

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

You are quite fortunate in that experience - others of us have found how conditions can change without warning. In particular on total sections predictions on when to transit are based on a small difference between two large numbers (tide versos fresh) where only small change in either force have a dramatic effect.

I have stayed on Gainsborough Jetty a day due to a tide failing! It wasnt worth the effort pushing the fresh to get to Torksey

[IanD]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

As a percentage in the UK they wouldnt register the numbers are so small

Ian proper boaters dont push the tide or current on the Trent, It uses huge amounts of fuel for nothing. I have been on the Trent more times than I can remember on many different boats, it was only on a massive Gin Palace did we push the tide all other times we went with it.

So when you have to go upstream on the Trent to get from A to B after heavy rain and can't wait several days for the current to subside, what do you suggest? You might be able to wait but many people can't, just like me last year. And for sure the boats on the Ribble Link in the videos I saw absolutely needed the power, otherwise they'd have been swept the wrong way. Maybe this is a freak case, but it's a real one -- and no "proper boater" can do anything about this, the times are fixed by the tides and access to the link and you have to be able to cope.

 

Yet again we're getting back to the "how much power do boats need?" question. Either they don't need the power of a modern diesel and 15kW of electric (or a much smaller diesel) is enough, or they do and it isn't.

 

The diesel engine viewpoint (as installed in most boats today) is that the power recommended by the engine suppliers (e.g. Beta 30 for 40', Beta 38 for 50', Beta 43 for 60', Beta 50 for 70') is needed, and that 15kW/20hp from electric or any other power unit isn't enough. The electric view (as installed in most/all series hybrids today) is that this much power isn't needed, 15kW/20hp or so is fine for (almost?) all circumstances. I've even seen an electric motor this size used in a 70' x 12' widebeam, which most people would say is taking it too far -- but maybe the owner hardly ever (or never?) moves the boat, or never goes out onto a river, and is happy with this.

 

I'm not judging, either is a perfectly valid point of view, you pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

What isn't valid -- because Mr. Watt says so -- is to say that ~20 electric horsepower are equal to ~40 diesel horsepower, because they're clearly not ?

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I have stayed on Gainsborough Jetty a day due to a tide failing! It wasnt worth the effort pushing the fresh to get to Torksey

Because you could, and you didn't have any need to get anywhere in a particular time. Not everyone who doesn't live aboard and have unlimited time on their hands is so lucky -- yet again you're only thinking of your own circumstances... ?

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

So when you have to go upstream on the Trent to get from A to B after heavy rain and can't wait several days for the current to subside, what do you suggest? You might be able to wait but many people can't, just like me last year. And for sure the boats on the Ribble Link in the videos I saw absolutely needed the power, otherwise they'd have been swept the wrong way. Maybe this is a freak case, but it's a real one -- and no "proper boater" can do anything about this, the times are fixed by the tides and access to the link and you have to be able to cope.

 

Yet again we're getting back to the "how much power do boats need?" question. Either they don't need the power of a modern diesel and 15kW of electric (or a much smaller diesel) is enough, or they do and it isn't.

 

The diesel engine viewpoint (as installed in most boats today) is that the power recommended by the engine suppliers (e.g. Beta 30 for 40', Beta 38 for 50', Beta 43 for 60', Beta 50 for 70') is needed, and that 15kW/20hp from electric or any other power unit isn't enough. The electric view (as installed in most/all series hybrids today) is that this much power isn't needed, 15kW/20hp or so is fine for (almost?) all circumstances. I've even seen an electric motor this size used in a 70' x 12' widebeam, which most people would say is taking it too far -- but maybe the owner hardly ever (or never?) moves the boat, or never goes out onto a river, and is happy with this.

 

I'm not judging, either is a perfectly valid point of view, you pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

What isn't valid -- because Mr. Watt says so -- is to say that ~20 electric horsepower are equal to ~40 diesel horsepower,
because they're clearly not ?

The problem is most 40hp diesel engines in a boat aren't because they are over propped, also how did those 20 30 hp 100 ton working g boats work the trent? Essy they were proper boaters 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The problem is most 40hp diesel engines in a boat aren't because they are over propped, also how did those 20 30 hp 100 ton working g boats work the trent? Essy they were proper boaters 

Overpropping does reduce power but by nothing like as much as you keep claiming (e.g. to 20hp for a Beta 43 was your figure). I've been on many boats with this engine and every one of them has had no problem getting to at least 2000rpm (36hp), at 2400rpm we're up to 40hp. 20hp is 1300rpm, which I doubt has ever happened unless somebody accidentally fitted a massive prop they fished out of the canal ?

 

Your definition of "proper boaters" seems to be those like you who live aboard and have enough time on their hands to wait -- possibly for several days -- until conditions improve, for example after heavy rain. So people on holiday on hire or timeshare boats, or who have a journey planned that they have to make in a given time (maybe a weekend or a week) aren't "proper boaters" then?

 

Maybe you ought to consider that you are not the whole world, and other people may have different needs and priorities to you? It's the solar/electric story all over again, you keep repeatedly telling people how it's brilliant because  works for you (which it does, on a wideboat and not travelling continuously for long periods) while ignoring the fact that this is not the case for narrowboats who need to get from A to B in a given time.

 

Commercial boats working regular routes still get stuck unable to move at times of strong currents as I'm sure you know very well, but at least they're still being paid.

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Maybe you ought to consider that you are not the whole world, and other people may have different needs and priorities to you? It's the solar story all over again, you keep repeatedly telling people how it works for you (which it does, on a wideboat and not travelling for long periods) while ignoring the fact that this is not the case for narrowboats who need to get from A to B in a given time.

 

Give him a few years and he'll come round.  He is now installing a diesel genny so he can move his solar powered boat more ... 

 

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Give him a few years and he'll come round.  He is now installing a diesel genny so he can move his solar powered boat more ... 

 

I am hoping I don't need it, it's just a backup that came at 1350 squids so I bought it.  Also I can run it on full biodiesel unlike the whispergen which hates the stuff!!

[peterboat]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

Overpropping does reduce power but by nothing like as much as you keep claiming (e.g. to 20hp for a Beta 43 was your figure). I've been on many boats with this engine and every one of them has had no problem getting to at least 2000rpm (36hp), at 2400rpm we're up to 40hp. 20hp is 1300rpm, which I doubt has ever happened unless somebody accidentally fitted a massive prop they fished out of the canal ?

 

Your definition of "proper boaters" seems to be those like you who live aboard and have enough time on their hands to wait -- possibly for several days -- until conditions improve, for example after heavy rain. So people on holiday on hire or timeshare boats, or who have a journey planned that they have to make in a given time (maybe a weekend or a week) aren't "proper boaters" then?

 

Maybe you ought to consider that you are not the whole world, and other people may have different needs and priorities to you? It's the solar story all over again, you keep repeatedly telling people how it works for you (which it does, on a wideboat and not travelling continuously for long periods) while ignoring the fact that this is not the case for narrowboats who need to get from A to B in a given time.

 

Commercial boats working regular routes still get stuck unable to move at times of strong currents as I'm sure you know very well, but at least they're still being paid.

Working boatman like my neighbour was, he is having hysterics at your posts as he used to go up and down the trent and ouse with 20 or 30 hp lister pushing them along. 

Also a quick Google shows that a Barrus Shire 50 creats it maximum hp between 3500 to 4000 rpm and and 2000 it's under half that because it's got 2 alternators and a hydraulic gearbox robbing it of power 

[nb Innisfree]

A few numbers:

60' nb Innisfree's first engine produced 33bhp @2000 rpm, Crowther prop designed for that engine absorbed, according to Crowther, approx 25 bhp, engine was able to reach 1950 rpm with full batteries, about 1750 with half full ones, alternator absorbed about 6 bhp. So taking engine & gearbox losses 33 bhp was a bit on the short side, later 40 bhp engine coped easily. 

 

ETA: 20 KW electric motor would have been OK, 25 kw plenty. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by nb Innisfree

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Working boatman like my neighbour was, he is having hysterics at your posts as he used to go up and down the trent and ouse with 20 or 30 hp lister pushing them along. 

Also a quick Google shows that a Barrus Shire 50 creats it maximum hp between 3500 to 4000 rpm and and 2000 it's under half that because it's got 2 alternators and a hydraulic gearbox robbing it of power 

You keep changing the subject to avoid answering difficult questions. Nobody denies that commercial boats generally got along fine with a relatively small engine, as I keep saying (but you keep ignoring) the same applies to narrowboats -- in most cases 20hp is plenty.

 

The reason bigger engines are fitted is either because every single engine manufacturer is wrong and you're right, or to give enough power for emergencies and the rare "edge case" like the Ribble Link or upstream on the Trent after heavy rain -- seen one, done the other, are you saying these didn't happen?

 

Under the same circumstances a commercial boat (or you) would tie up and wait until things got easier -- unless you're telling me that a 100ton boat could go up the Trent after heavy rain on 20-30hp, in spite of earlier saying your boat would need 100hp to do this? You're arguing with yourself here, not me... ?

 

I don't know where you got your numbers from, peak power for a Shire 50 is at 3000rpm, I can't find the power/torque curve but I imagine it's similar to the Beta 43.

 

Gearbox loss for a PRM150 is typically 4% and this applies at all revs, which is 2bhp at maximum power. Alternators take as much as you draw from them, it's unlikely that you'd be charging at 170A (or whatever) under the circumstances we're talking about, but even if you were this would absorb 6bhp (see #1126). Which brings a Beta 43 at 2000rpm down from 36hp to 28hp under heavy alternator load, or 33bhp under normal (30A) charging conditions.

 

To get down to 20hp at 2000rpm you'd need alternators running continuously at 400A, and since none of them will output maximum amps when hot (which they sure would be) this means alternators rated at somewhere in the 500A-600A region. Which even if you could fit them and the belts and stop them pulling the crank pulley off would also be a heavy enough load at idle to stop the engine dead.,,

 

If you know of anyone with an engine with alternators this big to justify your numbers, please point them out ?

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

58 minutes ago, IanD said:

You keep changing the subject to avoid answering difficult questions. Nobody denies that commercial boats generally got along fine with a relatively small engine, as I keep saying (but you keep ignoring) the same applies to narrowboats -- in most cases 20hp is plenty.

 

The reason bigger engines are fitted is either because every single engine manufacturer is wrong and you're right, or to give enough power for emergencies and the rare "edge case" like the Ribble Link or upstream on the Trent after heavy rain -- seen one, done the other, are you saying these didn't happen?

 

Under the same circumstances a commercial boat (or you) would tie up and wait until things got easier -- unless you're telling me that a 100ton boat could go up the Trent after heavy rain on 20-30hp, in spite of earlier saying your boat would need 100hp to do this? You're arguing with yourself here, not me... ?

 

I don't know where you got your numbers from, peak power for a Shire 50 is at 3000rpm, I can't find the power/torque curve but I imagine it's similar to the Beta 43.

 

Gearbox loss for a PRM150 is typically 4% and this applies at all revs, which is 2bhp at maximum power. Alternators take as much as you draw from them, it's unlikely that you'd be charging at 170A (or whatever) under the circumstances we're talking about, but even if you were this would absorb 6bhp (see #1126). Which brings a Beta 43 at 2000rpm down from 36hp to 28hp under heavy alternator load, or 33bhp under normal (30A) charging conditions.

 

To get down to 20hp at 2000rpm you'd need alternators running continuously at 400A, and since none of them will output maximum amps when hot (which they sure would be) this means alternators rated at somewhere in the 500A-600A region. Which even if you could fit them and the belts and stop them pulling the crank pulley off would also be a heavy enough load at idle to stop the engine dead.,,

 

If you know of anyone with an engine with alternators this big to justify your numbers, please point them out ?

Never seen a narrowboat that can get to those revs, My current boat used to get to 2000 rpm even after a repitch it was 2500 and less if battery bank discharged, to get it to 50 HP the prop would have had cavitation issue. As for working boatman they call it an anchor they drop it and on the next tide continue.

I suspect you have been on the Trent once Ian as I said I have been on it loads of times in many different boats I would not have dreamed of pushing the tide its pointless and dangerous when something goes wrong. I will be going on the Trent with this boat with its electric motor at some point I am sure I will be fine. 

[Jackofalltrades]

Our other boat is a sailing boat. Tidal streams are always checked / worked out before setting off on passage to take advantage of them, not to battle against them if at all possible. I fully expect we'll do the same on the canal and river network where and when appropriate. I'd consider it to be poor seamanship to do otherwise.

 

As for the ongoing debate concerning how many HP is enough. Well, in't olden days it wa one real 'orse per boat. Twenty 'orses or more... luxury!

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Jackofalltrades

[Mike Todd]

36 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Our other boat is a sailing boat. Tidal streams are always checked / worked out before setting off on passage to take advantage of them, not to battle against them if at all possible. I fully expect we'll do the same on the canal and river network where and when appropriate. I'd consider it to be poor seamanship to do otherwise.

 

As for the ongoing debate concerning how many HP is enough. Well, in't olden days it wa one real 'orse power per boat. Twenty 'orses or more... luxury!

 

But all that planning can sometimes go awry, not through any defect in the planning but through unanticipated or unanticpatable, changes.

 

To give an example: in mid summer we left West Stockwith bound for Keadby. The river level was up after a period of rain and several days where transit was not advised by the lock keeper. He eventually, after checking the conditions with his colleague at Keadby, advised that it was good to go - 'flat as a pancake' at Keadby. By the time we neared Keadby the balance between tide and fresh turned significantly to our disadvantage and we needed all the power we could get (Beta 34 at the time) to get into the lock - and that took a nail-bitingly long time stemming the flow, inches at a time from just below the lock til we could turn in. We knew what we were doing and took all available local advice but it still happened. The lockie later told us of his fears for a boat that insisted on going out a few days before with little more than a trolling outboard. Apparently he got there upstream but clearly had no margin for error.

 

In principle this has nothing to do with the form of motive power but it has a lot to do with opting for one with inadequate output.

[cuthound]

On 11/01/2021 at 18:40, IanD said:

OK, that's fine. But 0.3l/kWh is make-believe until he's got measurements to prove it, no matter how good an engineer he is ?

 

Fits in with the real life diesel generator (10-1000kVA) fuel consumption measurements i mentioned in post #1036.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Never seen a narrowboat that can get to those revs, My current boat used to get to 2000 rpm even after a repitch it was 2500 and less if battery bank discharged, to get it to 50 HP the prop would have had cavitation issue. As for working boatman they call it an anchor they drop it and on the next tide continue.

I suspect you have been on the Trent once Ian as I said I have been on it loads of times in many different boats I would not have dreamed of pushing the tide its pointless and dangerous when something goes wrong. I will be going on the Trent with this boat with its electric motor at some point I am sure I will be fine. 

Funny that you've never seen a narrowboat that can get past 2000rpm because I've been on plenty. Yes they've mostly been hired, so I guess that doesn't make me a "real boater" in your mind, in spite of that fact I've spent getting on for six months over the last forty years actually travelling on the canals, not moored up.

 

Oops I forgot, there was one boat which could barely reach 400rpm flat out but went bonk-bonk-pause-bonk, and another one which didn't even reach 200rpm and went fss-fss-fss, but I guess these don't count because neither was a diesel ?

 

I've been on the Trent several times. The only time I've had a problem was last year while doing the Leicester ring over 2 weeks, just after the heavy rains/flooding when the Soar and Trent had been red-boarded. The problem wasn't the tide, it was the volume of water coming downriver, it wasn't even on yellows at the time IIRC. It's one of the very few times I've ever used close to full power on a boat, but I was very glad to have it.

 

What would you suggest I should have done, given that I had to get the boat back to the boatyard 2 days later?

 

(and before you say "leave more time when planning a trip" I had done exactly that, and the Soar closure had already used it up)

 

This was exactly Mike's point. not everybody (including working boatmen) always has the luxury of being able to wait a day or two for things to calm down, and this is nothing to do with being a "proper boater", it's just circumstances. Several people have told you this now, but you're not listening ?

 

I'm sure when you go on the Trent in your boat you're very unlikely to have a problem, but even if unfortunate circumstances are rare (Covid-19, last year's floods) they do happen ?

[Jackofalltrades]

10 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But all that planning can sometimes go awry, not through any defect in the planning but through unanticipated or unanticpatable, changes.

 

To give an example: in mid summer we left West Stockwith bound for Keadby. The river level was up after a period of rain and several days where transit was not advised by the lock keeper. He eventually, after checking the conditions with his colleague at Keadby, advised that it was good to go - 'flat as a pancake' at Keadby. By the time we neared Keadby the balance between tide and fresh turned significantly to our disadvantage and we needed all the power we could get (Beta 34 at the time) to get into the lock - and that took a nail-bitingly long time stemming the flow, inches at a time from just below the lock til we could turn in. We knew what we were doing and took all available local advice but it still happened. The lockie later told us of his fears for a boat that insisted on going out a few days before with little more than a trolling outboard. Apparently he got there upstream but clearly had no margin for error.

 

In principle this has nothing to do with the form of motive power but it has a lot to do with opting for one with inadequate output.

That's why I said in my previous post "Tidal streams are always checked / worked out before setting off on passage to take advantage of them, not to battle against them **if at all possible.** "

 

...If anyone thought the motive power source (diesel or electric) on their boat was marginal for the conditions (i.e. left no margin for error) then they should be inclined to wait for more favorable conditions. But we're talking here about heading a few miles up river not crossing Biscay or the English Channel & shipping lanes, or timing an arrival at a ferocious tidal gate, etc. Now before anyone pounces on me, I doubt any of us who have been around boats long enough are complacent (surely not) and yes I know everyone makes mistakes and forecasts and local experts are sometimes wrong, etc, etc, but if we want to be as safe as it's possible to be all the time then best to hide under a duvet all day (and then get wiped out by a crashing plane...)

 

I suppose what all this boils down to is: know thy boat and know thyself! And plan accordingly, with as wide a margin for error as you deem appropriate for you, your boat, and the conditions both actual, forecast and worst case. But from my so far limited knowledge of the UK's inland waterways it seems that more boats are sunk on their moorings and in lock incidents than through lack of power (perceived or otherwise).

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Fits in with the real life diesel generator (10-1000kVA) fuel consumption measurements i mentioned in post #1036.

And doesn't fit with every 10kVA marine generator on the market today that I've found numbers for, they're all similar to the Betagen ?

 

So like I said, I'll believe it when I see it, since it seems that not a single generator of any size has been built yet. Is that so difficult to understand?

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

And doesn't fit with every 10kVA marine generator on the market today ?

 

My measurements were on commercial standby generators, mainly 1500 rpm whizz bangs, but quite a few 1000 rpm, 750 and 500rpm sets.

 

No reason to think any generator would give different results unless powered by a modern common rail diesel engine.

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

That's why I said in my previous post "Tidal streams are always checked / worked out before setting off on passage to take advantage of them, not to battle against them **if at all possible.** "

 

...If anyone thought the motive power source (diesel or electric) on their boat was marginal for the conditions (i.e. left no margin for error) then they should be inclined to wait for more favorable conditions. But we're talking here about heading a few miles up river not crossing Biscay or the English Channel & shipping lanes, or timing an arrival at a ferocious tidal gate, etc. Now before anyone pounces on me, I doubt any of us who have been around boats long enough are complacent (surely not) and yes I know everyone makes mistakes and forecasts and local experts are sometimes wrong, etc, etc, but if we want to be as safe as it's possible to be all the time then best to hide under a duvet all day (and then get wiped out by a crashing plane...)

 

I suppose what all this boils down to is: know thy boat and know thyself! And plan accordingly, with as wide a margin for error as you deem appropriate for you, your boat, and the conditions both actual, forecast and worst case. But from my so far limited knowledge of the UK's inland waterways it seems that more boats are sunk on their moorings and in lock incidents than through lack of power (perceived or otherwise).

Did all that. Still got caught out and was glad to have the power to get out of it ?

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[Jackofalltrades]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Did all that. Still got caught out and was glad to have the power to get out of it ?

So what was your back-up plan in case it all went Pete Tong?

 

You had a back-up plan, right?

 

[peterboat]

14 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Fits in with the real life diesel generator (10-1000kVA) fuel consumption measurements i mentioned in post #1036.

If it not a beta its not right ?

[IanD]

23 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

My measurements were on commercial standby generators, mainly 1500 rpm whizz bangs, but quite a few 1000 rpm, 750 and 500rpm sets.

 

No reason to think any generator would give different results unless powered by a modern common rail diesel engine.

All I can say is -- go and look at the fuel consumption numbers (making sure to use real kW output not kVA), all the marine 10kVA generators are similar.

 

If they're all the same but 25% or so worse than all the ones you measured there has to be a reason. Were you taking output in kVA not kW, that would explain it?

 

(Betagen 10 at "prime output" (continuous) is 2.7l/hr to put out 7.1kW (31A/230V) or 8.8kVA)

 

Using kVA instead of kW (PF=0.8) would exactly explain the ~25% differences -- but kW (real amps*volts) is what matters for going into a combo which charges a battery bank, which is why I used it.

19 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

So what was your back-up plan in case it all went Pete Tong?

 

You had a back-up plan, right?

 

The back-up back-up plan (I'd already used the back-up plan, both were scuppered by the weather, don't expect hurricanes in August in England...) was not getting back to the boatyard on time ?

17 minutes ago, peterboat said:

If it not a beta its not right ?

Do grow up, Peter... ?

 

The reasons for using Beta as examples for calculation is that they're very widely used, and also publish detailed data sheets with full information in them so you can actually work out what's really going on. Unlike Barrus Shire who you picked to quote wrong numbers from... ?

Edited January 13, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

My measurements were on commercial standby generators, mainly 1500 rpm whizz bangs, but quite a few 1000 rpm, 750 and 500rpm sets.

 

No reason to think any generator would give different results unless powered by a modern common rail diesel engine.

 I had years of working with numerous gensets for 300watt battery chargers to 27 kVA Listers that you could hear for miles. Then we went unifuel in other words all diesel and it all changed, small diesel gennys up 6 kw you knew exactly when to do resupply, the 16/24s same a tank of fuel lasted  one day at 60 75% load. We kept logs for them and you knew in seconds if someone was fiddling as the consumption was that similar for each genny in size

[Jackofalltrades]

Generator diesel consumption.

 

Here's the spec sheet for the generator installed on our sailing boat:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55c3192ce4b099b364749dbb/t/55c88178e4b035759ce3bb2f/1439203704637/Paguro-6500-8500-Marine-Generator.pdf

 

Fuel consumption is stated as: 0.35 l/KW/h

 

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Generator diesel consumption.

 

Here's the spec sheet for the generator installed on our sailing boat:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55c3192ce4b099b364749dbb/t/55c88178e4b035759ce3bb2f/1439203704637/Paguro-6500-8500-Marine-Generator.pdf

 

Fuel consumption is stated as: 0.35 l/KW/h

 

Very nice bet it cost a lot more than my 6kw old vetus unit?