phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Something else.

Nah, this is a good idea that does not involve ecofans or fish.

 

Ah, so it involves ducks then?

 

Talking of ducks we haven't seen him for a while. Yku didnt sell him with Charis did you? ?

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Ah, so it involves ducks then?

 

Talking of ducks we haven't seen him for a while. You didnt sell him with Charis did you? ?

 

No silly it was Kharis, named after @Dr Bob's mummy ... 

 

And this is what happens if you steal the duck:

 

[Dr Bob]

45 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Ah, so it involves ducks then?

 

Talking of ducks we haven't seen him for a while. Yku didnt sell him with Charis did you? ?

No, no ducks involved.

...but yes, he's still around. I will post a shot tomorrow.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

No, no ducks involved.

...but yes, he's still around. I will post a shot tomorrow.

 

Try again, this one didn't work

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Intersting article in the Guardian re Norway's 'drive' to BEV's and the fact that now over 50% of new car sales are 'lectric'.

But, there is still a desire, and huge need,  for 'dinosaur-juice'.

 

 

 

Norway's electric car drive belies national reliance on fossil fuels | Business | The Guardian

 

Norway became the first country to sell more electric cars than petrol, hybrid and diesel engines put together last year, new data shows, with battery electric vehicles (BEVs) accounting for two-thirds of sales in the final months of 2020.

Norway has one of the world’s most ambitious green targets, planning to phase out sales of all new fossil-fuel vehicles by 2025, five years earlier than the UK.

It is quite a contradiction in a country that has become one of the richest in the world on the back of its oil and gas revenues, has made itself dependent on oil, and clings to further production even as the world increasingly rejects fossil fuels in pursuit of zero emissions.

 

While on the one hand the government is auctioning oil exploration licences for fields in the fragile Arctic, on the other it is aiming for a carbon-neutral national vehicle park by 2030. On Friday, it submitted its national plan on climate, which included this ambitious aim and the promise that, from next year, the public sector would be required to procure zero-emission vehicles only.

While Norway is still one of the world’s big oil producers, it gets more than 90% of its power from hydroelectric sources. This goes some way to explain why the introduction of electric vehicles has been such a winner: as long as the rivers and waterfalls don’t run dry, this is an infinite source of power that can also be applied to vehicles. Even up north, where distances between settlements are vast and the winter cold extreme, the electric car is gaining a stronghold.

 

Interesting conclusion regarding batteries.

[Up-Side-Down]

Interesting, especially regarding the re-purposed Leaf batteries. The IWA Sustainable Propulsion Group are looking seriously at similar batteries as a way of reducing the cost of serial propulsion systems in inland boats.

 

https://www.plymouthboattrips.co.uk/plymouth-boat-trips-voyager-marine-launch-uks-first-sea-going-electric-ferry/

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Interesting, especially regarding the re-purposed Leaf batteries. The IWA Sustainable Propulsion Group are looking seriously at similar batteries as a way of reducing the cost of serial propulsion systems in inland boats.

 

https://www.plymouthboattrips.co.uk/plymouth-boat-trips-voyager-marine-launch-uks-first-sea-going-electric-ferry/

But, again, that is an example where its whole life is spent going back to base for every charge. Many vehicles do not have that option without seriously changing their life, or the energy store (perhaps not batteries) have significantly larger capacity.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Interesting, especially regarding the re-purposed Leaf batteries. The IWA Sustainable Propulsion Group are looking seriously at similar batteries as a way of reducing the cost of serial propulsion systems in inland boats.

 

https://www.plymouthboattrips.co.uk/plymouth-boat-trips-voyager-marine-launch-uks-first-sea-going-electric-ferry/

Riccy at Finesse boats has done the same he intends to market it as a drop in system, if you remember IanD and I had a ding dong about it!  I am running secondhand batteries and expect them to last my lifetime with ease and its the same with the repurposed leaf batteries that Riccy intends to use on his boats and kits

27 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But, again, that is an example where its whole life is spent going back to base for every charge. Many vehicles do not have that option without seriously changing their life, or the energy store (perhaps not batteries) have significantly larger capacity.

They are serial hybrids so would have a genny to recharge if the sun didnt shine, the broads have hire boats that are serial hybrids and they are very economical to run in comparison to a full diesel boat

[Ronaldo47]

I understand from a recent article in a different paper that the Norwegian tax on conventional cars was already so high that there is litte difference beween the prices of hydocarbon and electric cars, which would be a far more significant factor in explaining their large-scale take-up.   

 

When we went on a cruise to Norway in 2012, thete were plenty of on-street parking bays with charging points in all the ports we called at. 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Ronaldo47

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Riccy at Finesse boats has done the same he intends to market it as a drop in system, if you remember IanD and I had a ding dong about it!  I am running secondhand batteries and expect them to last my lifetime with ease and its the same with the repurposed leaf batteries that Riccy intends to use on his boats and kits

They are serial hybrids so would have a genny to recharge if the sun didnt shine, the broads have hire boats that are serial hybrids and they are very economical to run in comparison to a full diesel boat

Re-using secondhand BEV batteries certainly reduces the cost of an electric/series hybrid boat compared to buying new, probably to the point where the cost is similar to a parallel hybrid going by the analysis I've done since we had our "robust discussion" ? (and like Peter a series hybrid would now be my preference for various reasons, though cost isn't one of them)

 

One problem is that most (all?) BEV batteries are high-voltage (around 400V) which means all sorts of tight safety regulations (and higher costs) come in for both construction/control and maintenance (interlocks on access, insulation, touch-proof everything...) ; this is OK for a big commercial drive system like the one mentioned, but a real issue for pleasure boats which is why most use 48V (IIRC "high-voltage" regulations come in above 60V and are much worse at 400V, mechanics need special training and so on).

 

You do still need an onboard diesel genny, at least until charging points become common, and maybe even then since an onboard battery bank is likely to need recharging more often than a water tank needs refilling or a poo tank emptying -- at least in winter when solar can't keep up with demand on a narrowboat. So for the moment there's really no such thing as an "all-electric" boat ?

 

Apart from cost (which is dropping), the remaining biggest problem with most (all?) of the series hybrids (including Finesse and Shine) on the market today (or self-built by most people) is lack of power to cope with emergencies or strong river flows, they're all down in the 15kW/20bhp region. If this is seen as enough then fine, but it's considerably lower the power of a normal modern diesel installation, even allowing for alternator loading on a diesel. The reason for this is partly the motors and partly the controllers, if you want to use 48V then this is about the upper limit, 15kW output is about 350A continuous current from the batteries allowing for losses.

 

After talking to a lot of suppliers I did find a 25kW solution from voltsport.co.uk using a six-phase motor from Engiro and two Sevcon controllers, which was about the same cost as the 15kW Waterworld solution, and about half the cost of 15kW solutions from yachty suppliers like Bellmarine. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody eventually decides to offer this targeted at the hybrid boat market, but I suspect none of the marine suppliers have spotted this yet -- I found it by trawling througn BEV forums and then contacting Voltsport who are basically a BEV supplier, not marine as such. Maybe Peter could point his friend Riccy at this solution... ?

Edited January 9, 2021 by IanD

[jbzoom]

48 minutes ago, IanD said:

Re-using secondhand BEV batteries certainly reduces the cost of an electric/series hybrid boat compared to buying new, probably to the point where the cost is similar to a parallel hybrid going by the analysis I've done since we had our "robust discussion" ? (and like Peter a series hybrid would now be my preference for various reasons, though cost isn't one of them)

 

One problem is that most (all?) BEV batteries are high-voltage (around 400V) which means all sorts of tight safety regulations (and higher costs) come in for both construction/control and maintenance (interlocks on access, insulation, touch-proof everything...) ; this is OK for a big commercial drive system like the one mentioned, but a real issue for pleasure boats which is why most use 48V (IIRC "high-voltage" regulations come in above 60V and are much worse at 400V, mechanics need special training and so on).

 

You do still need an onboard diesel genny, at least until charging points become common, and maybe even then since an onboard battery bank is likely to need recharging more often than a water tank needs refilling or a poo tank emptying -- at least in winter when solar can't keep up with demand on a narrowboat. So for the moment there's really no such thing as an "all-electric" boat ?

 

Apart from cost (which is dropping), the remaining biggest problem with most (all?) of the series hybrids (including Finesse and Shine) on the market today (or self-built by most people) is lack of power to cope with emergencies or strong river flows, they're all down in the 15kW/20bhp region. If this is seen as enough then fine, but it's considerably lower the power of a normal modern diesel installation, even allowing for alternator loading on a diesel. The reason for this is partly the motors and partly the controllers, if you want to use 48V then this is about the upper limit, 15kW output is about 350A continuous current from the batteries allowing for losses.

 

After talking to a lot of suppliers I did find a 25kW solution from voltsport.co.uk using a six-phase motor from Engiro and two Sevcon controllers, which was about the same cost as the 15kW Waterworld solution, and about half the cost of 15kW solutions from yachty suppliers like Bellmarine. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody eventually decides to offer this targeted at the hybrid boat market, but I suspect none of the marine suppliers have spotted this yet -- I found it by trawling througn BEV forums and then contacting Voltsport who are basically a BEV supplier, not marine as such. Maybe Peter could point his friend Riccy at this solution... ?

The need for 40 hp or so diesel engines on rivers is usually for short bursts of manoeuvering, where full torque is needed and delivered only at higher revs. Even then, after taking account of alternator and gearbox losses losses and the alternator load the effective delivery at the propeller is not very different from a 20Kw electric drive, which generates full torque at low revs. A  10 Kw genset and decent battery installation can support a 20kw motor drive, usually run at a fraction of that, with more electric household applications or an extended river trip with the washing machine, induction hob and immersion coil turned off. The cost of marine diesel gensets varies relatively little between 6 and 12 kw, based on the Betagen  price list. Four Lithium Iron 12v batteries can be connected in series to deliver traction power or in parallel to deliver 12v.  Serial Hybrid is the future and can work well in narrowboats at 48v, much safer than BEV power packs.

Edited January 9, 2021 by jbzoom

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, jbzoom said:

The need for 40 hp or so diesel engines on rivers is usually for short bursts of manoeuvering, where full torque is needed and delivered only at higher revs. Even then, after taking account of alternator and gearbox losses losses and the alternator load the effective delivery at the propeller is not very different from a 20Kw electric drive, which generates full torque at low revs. A  10 Kw genset and decent battery installation can support a 20kw motor drive, usually run at a fraction of that, with more electric household applications or an extended river trip with the washing machine, induction hob and immersion coil turned off. The cost of marine diesel gensets varies relatively little between 6 and 12 kw, based on the Betagen  price list. Four Lithium Iron 12v batteries can be connected in series to deliver traction power or in parallel to deliver 12v.  Serial Hybrid is the future and can work well in narrowboats at 48v, much safer than BEV power packs.

I'm aware of all that. The "electric motors have full torque at low revs" is completely irrelevant for boats, at low revs a propellor needs very little torque -- for emergency manoeuvring or going upstream what matters is power, and here 15kW is the same as 20hp (at the propellor) whether it comes from an electric motor or a diesel.

 

If the 15kW power limit is the motor/controller then it doesn't matter whether the source is batteries or generator or both.

 

Alternators and gearbox do absorb a few bhp, but nothing like enough to make a 15kW motor equivalent to a 40bhp diesel, suggest you go and look at the numbers.

 

Series 12V LiFePO4 "off-the-shelf" batteries present huge challenges for charging/protection/BMS and are not suitable for boat propulsion, suggest you go and read up on the marinehowto site. Many people have made this assumption and come unstuck...

 

But I do agree that it's possible to build a good 48V series hybrid today, and that this is probably the solution for the future -- at least for those who can afford it or build their own, until there's a cheap second-hand market.

Edited January 9, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

Re-using secondhand BEV batteries certainly reduces the cost of an electric/series hybrid boat compared to buying new, probably to the point where the cost is similar to a parallel hybrid going by the analysis I've done since we had our "robust discussion" ? (and like Peter a series hybrid would now be my preference for various reasons, though cost isn't one of them)

 

One problem is that most (all?) BEV batteries are high-voltage (around 400V) which means all sorts of tight safety regulations (and higher costs) come in for both construction/control and maintenance (interlocks on access, insulation, touch-proof everything...) ; this is OK for a big commercial drive system like the one mentioned, but a real issue for pleasure boats which is why most use 48V (IIRC "high-voltage" regulations come in above 60V and are much worse at 400V, mechanics need special training and so on).

 

You do still need an onboard diesel genny, at least until charging points become common, and maybe even then since an onboard battery bank is likely to need recharging more often than a water tank needs refilling or a poo tank emptying -- at least in winter when solar can't keep up with demand on a narrowboat. So for the moment there's really no such thing as an "all-electric" boat ?

 

Apart from cost (which is dropping), the remaining biggest problem with most (all?) of the series hybrids (including Finesse and Shine) on the market today (or self-built by most people) is lack of power to cope with emergencies or strong river flows, they're all down in the 15kW/20bhp region. If this is seen as enough then fine, but it's considerably lower the power of a normal modern diesel installation, even allowing for alternator loading on a diesel. The reason for this is partly the motors and partly the controllers, if you want to use 48V then this is about the upper limit, 15kW output is about 350A continuous current from the batteries allowing for losses.

 

After talking to a lot of suppliers I did find a 25kW solution from voltsport.co.uk using a six-phase motor from Engiro and two Sevcon controllers, which was about the same cost as the 15kW Waterworld solution, and about half the cost of 15kW solutions from yachty suppliers like Bellmarine. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody eventually decides to offer this targeted at the hybrid boat market, but I suspect none of the marine suppliers have spotted this yet -- I found it by trawling througn BEV forums and then contacting Voltsport who are basically a BEV supplier, not marine as such. Maybe Peter could point his friend Riccy at this solution... ?

 

2 hours ago, jbzoom said:

The need for 40 hp or so diesel engines on rivers is usually for short bursts of manoeuvering, where full torque is needed and delivered only at higher revs. Even then, after taking account of alternator and gearbox losses losses and the alternator load the effective delivery at the propeller is not very different from a 20Kw electric drive, which generates full torque at low revs. A  10 Kw genset and decent battery installation can support a 20kw motor drive, usually run at a fraction of that, with more electric household applications or an extended river trip with the washing machine, induction hob and immersion coil turned off. The cost of marine diesel gensets varies relatively little between 6 and 12 kw, based on the Betagen  price list. Four Lithium Iron 12v batteries can be connected in series to deliver traction power or in parallel to deliver 12v.  Serial Hybrid is the future and can work well in narrowboats at 48v, much safer than BEV power packs.

 

1 hour ago, IanD said:

I'm aware of all that. The "electric motors have full torque at low revs" is completely irrelevant for boats, at low revs a propellor needs very little torque -- for emergency manoeuvring or going upstream what matters is power, and here 15kW is the same as 20hp (at the propellor) whether it comes from an electric motor or a diesel.

 

If the 15kW power limit is the motor/controller then it doesn't matter whether the source is batteries or generator or both.

 

Alternators and gearbox do absorb a few bhp, but nothing like enough to make a 15kW motor equivalent to a 40bhp diesel, suggest you go and look at the numbers.

 

Series 12V LiFePO4 "off-the-shelf" batteries present huge challenges for charging/protection/BMS and are not suitable for boat propulsion, suggest you go and read up on the marinehowto site. Many people have made this assumption and come unstuck...

 

But I do agree that it's possible to build a good 48V series hybrid today, and that this is probably the solution for the future -- at least for those who can afford it or build their own, until there's a cheap second-hand market.

When battery packs are repurposed they normally end up at 48 volts, I have a brand new BMW I3 battery pack which is made up of 8 x 48 volt battery modules. I keep on saying this, most boat engines flat out in gear are at between 2000 to 3000 rpm, which along with twin alternators means they even in emergency arnt producing anywhere near their rated output, (my 50 hp Barrus Shire until I repropped it was a perfect example it was doing 20hp at best) this is caused by people wanting to cruise at low rpm on canals. So my conversion at 30 hp is doing fine. 

Riccy makes his own drive units and they have been on the Trent and accross the wash so they seem to be up to the job. 

On a genny point, I found a chap that was knocking up gennys at a decent price in Brighouse, but a mate sold me a 6kw vetus one, which had done 4 hours work in 20 years! 1350 squids job done and its still a current engine and alternator so should work for a few years. Unfortunately it's a 3000rpm unit but beggars can't be choosers.

As Ian knows my system runs at 72 volts which is higher than I wanted but batteries dictated this and 72 volt battery chargers are cheaply and readily available 

Edited January 9, 2021 by peterboat

[Mike Todd]

5 hours ago, peterboat said:

They are serial hybrids so would have a genny to recharge if the sun didnt shine, the broads have hire boats that are serial hybrids and they are very economical to run in comparison to a full diesel boat

I really don't get the promotion of hybrids as a route to lower carbon unless the running costs are so much lower that they offset the extra capital cost and likely carbon tax (however hidden) that some promote as a means of accelerating the rate of change.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Mike Todd said:

I really don't get the promotion of hybrids as a route to lower carbon unless the running costs are so much lower that they offset the extra capital cost and likely carbon tax (however hidden) that some promote as a means of accelerating the rate of change.

 

The basic logic is that a small engine running at peak efficiency produces less carbon dioxide than a bigger engine running well below it's peak to provide the same power.  

 

The extra capital cost has nothing to do with the carbon emissions, but this higher cost is why more people haven't gone the lower carbon route. 

 

It doesn't work as well for boats as for road vehicles because you can't cheat and do regenerative braking to use some fraction of the power more than once.

[peterboat]

14 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

The basic logic is that a small engine running at peak efficiency produces less carbon dioxide than a bigger engine running well below it's peak to provide the same power.  

 

The extra capital cost has nothing to do with the carbon emissions, but this higher cost is why more people haven't gone the lower carbon route. 

 

It doesn't work as well for boats as for road vehicles because you can't cheat and do regenerative braking to use some fraction of the power more than once.

Their are other gains I willn be running two chargers and more than likely the washing machine and dishwasher at the same time so the genny will be fully loaded making the most of its carbon emmisions

[1st ade]

21 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

It doesn't work as well for boats as for road vehicles because you can't cheat and do regenerative braking to use some fraction of the power more than once.

On the other hand, boats don't "notice" the extra weight of carrying an ICE when on battery or a B**** great battery when running on dino-fuel quite as much...

[ditchcrawler]

They are converting another car to electric on Vintage Voltage being shown on Quest right now on +1 shortly FS168

[NB Alnwick]

We are very pleased with our electric car - it has a built in generator for when the electrickery runs out.

This means that we never have to use expensive public charging and it is so much more economical that our infernal combustion engined vehicles.

[nb Innisfree]

4 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

We are very pleased with our electric car - it has a built in generator for when the electrickery runs out.

This means that we never have to use expensive public charging and it is so much more economical that our infernal combustion engined vehicles.

BMW i3 Rex? 

[NB Alnwick]

No but similar set-up. We have a Vauxhall Ampera built by General Motors in Detroit. They are quite rare with only 1,200 or thereabouts being built in right hand drive. The concept proved too complicated and too expensive for a UK market that no longer regards Vauxhall as a prestigious brand. As the Opel Ampera they were received rather better in Holland and Germany and as the Chevrolet Volt they sold well in the USA and China. After spending hundreds of millions of dollars on development, production ceased in 2019 because GM decided that future trends would favour large SUV type, all terrain vehicles, rather than saloon cars.

I have now proved that I am a geek . . .

[nb Innisfree]

7 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

No but similar set-up. We have a Vauxhall Ampera built by General Motors in Detroit. They are quite rare with only 1,200 or thereabouts being built in right hand drive. The concept proved too complicated and too expensive for a UK market that no longer regards Vauxhall as a prestigious brand. As the Opel Ampera they were received rather better in Holland and Germany and as the Chevrolet Volt they sold well in the USA and China. After spending hundreds of millions of dollars on development, production ceased in 2019 because GM decided that future trends would favour large SUV type, all terrain vehicles, rather than saloon cars.

I have now proved that I am a geek . . .

We considered an Ampera but I was put off by the complex mechanics and that they were discontinued,  nice car nevertheless, instead we plumped for an i3 Rex, expensive but more of a pure bev though after I bought one I was disappointed by BMW's decision to stop production, fortunately  that decision was later reversed. 

[Mike Todd]

16 hours ago, peterboat said:

Their are other gains I willn be running two chargers and more than likely the washing machine and dishwasher at the same time so the genny will be fully loaded making the most of its carbon emmisions

Is that correct? It assumes that there care fixed emissions regardless of load or at least a reducing proportion. Seems unlikely but I have not seen any data on it.

15 hours ago, 1st ade said:

On the other hand, boats don't "notice" the extra weight of carrying an ICE when on battery or a B**** great battery when running on dino-fuel quite as much...

as much as what? momentum is a function of mass . . . 

[cuthound]

18 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

The basic logic is that a small engine running at peak efficiency produces less carbon dioxide than a bigger engine running well below it's peak to provide the same power.  

 

The extra capital cost has nothing to do with the carbon emissions, but this higher cost is why more people haven't gone the lower carbon route. 

 

It doesn't work as well for boats as for road vehicles because you can't cheat and do regenerative braking to use some fraction of the power more than once.

 

This logic doesn't really apply to diesel engines. Capacity is irrelevant as the CO2  comes from the fuel burnt and diesel engines can only burn the fuel the pump injects into them, which is the amount needed to support the load applied at the time.

 

This is the reason why canal boats all seem to use about 1.5 litres per hour at normal cruising speed, irrespective of engine size. Frictional and pumping losses account for the minor variations between engines.

[peterboat]

10 hours ago, NB Alnwick said:

No but similar set-up. We have a Vauxhall Ampera built by General Motors in Detroit. They are quite rare with only 1,200 or thereabouts being built in right hand drive. The concept proved too complicated and too expensive for a UK market that no longer regards Vauxhall as a prestigious brand. As the Opel Ampera they were received rather better in Holland and Germany and as the Chevrolet Volt they sold well in the USA and China. After spending hundreds of millions of dollars on development, production ceased in 2019 because GM decided that future trends would favour large SUV type, all terrain vehicles, rather than saloon cars.

I have now proved that I am a geek . . .

The daughter has one built in the Cadillac factory, they are great cars 1400cc petrol engine and 2 electric motors, she hasn't put petrol in it yet and she's had it for nearly 2 years. She charges at home and at work so its been a cheap car to run. She also gets free dedicated parking at work because it's electric, which in her case it is!

In truth I should have bought it myself but her needs apparently were greater than mine!

Edited January 10, 2021 by peterboat