phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[Ronaldo47]

In this month's issue of the Camping and Caravanning Club's magazine, concern is expressed about the present and prospective lack of electric cars suitable for towing many of the caravans presently in use, as well as the lack of larger vehicles such as vans that could be used as the basis for motor homes. For a given caravan weight there is a legally minimum weight of car that may tow it, and most of the present models are simply too light to be used as tow vehicles. This is quite apart from the matter of installing large numbers of additional electricity points in camp sites. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Ronaldo47
Typos

[Jen-in-Wellies]

26 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Mr Musk is leaving it a bit late to launch his electric truck in 2020. He only has a few hours left!

He does have previous on making promises with wildly optimistic completion dates.

 

An interesting article here on why battery improvement tends to be incremental and why the big breakthroughs that get announced often don't end up as a product.

5 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

In this month's issue of the Camping and Caravanning Club's magazine, concern is expressed about the present and prospective lack of electric cars suitable for towing many of the caravans presently in use, as well as the lack of larger vehicles such as vans that could be used as the basis for motor homes.

In the future they may end up being the Camping and Caravanning Club

[peterboat]

26 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

In this month's issue of the Camping and Caravanning Club's magazine, concern is expressed about the present and prospective lack of electric cars suitable for towing many of the caravans presently in use, as well as the lack of larger vehicles such as vans that could be used as the basis for motor homes. For a given caravan weight there is a legally minimum weight of car that may tow it, and most of the present models are simply too light to be used as tow vehicles. This is quite apart from the matter of installing large numbers of additional electricity points in camp sites. 

Really? They are proposing the caravan has batteries and drive motor and every site I have been on normally has electric points. Slow charging for car and van would work as well. I think I read that one of the electric vans has been converted already 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

In this month's issue of the Camping and Caravanning Club's magazine, concern is expressed about the present and prospective lack of electric cars suitable for towing many of the caravans presently in use, as well as the lack of larger vehicles such as vans that could be used as the basis for motor homes. For a given caravan weight there is a legally minimum weight of car that may tow it, and most of the present models are simply too light to be used as tow vehicles. This is quite apart from the matter of installing large numbers of additional electricity points in camp sites. 

I think it is actually the other way around.

 

The homologation of vehicles includes their maximum weight, and therefore the maximum weight they can tow.

Because the weight of BEV's is so much heavier the weight they can tow is reduced by the same amount. Things like brakes are being pushed to their maximum with just the additional battery weight.

 

Currently only very few cars are even approved for towing - the Jaguar Ipace for eample can only tow a maximum of 750kgs. The only vehicle that can tow a reasonable weight is the Teslas X (2,200kgs) and to do that it has to disconnect most of the electrical syatems such as traction control. The Tesla X towing a 680kg trailer lost 50% of its range.

It looks like BEVs that can tow are going to have a realistic range of about 100 miles

 

I can find no cars that can tow my 3.5 tonne horse trailer.

[Ronaldo47]

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't take note of the exact details as I have never had to tow anything, but noted the concern expressed about the lack of vehicles capable of towing: too comfy basking in front of our log fire to rummage in the back room where I keep my magazines!

 

When we used to have a camper van we normally stayed at some of the many minimum faclities licenced sites,  usually fields let by farmers and only licenced for a maximum of 5 caravans or camper vans plus 5 tents. The only facilties were normally a water tap and somewhere to empty your chemical toilet. I doubt that it would be financially economic for such sites to provide charging points. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Ronaldo47
Typos

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't take note of the exact details as I have never had to tow anything, but noted the concern expressed about the lack of vehicles capable of towing. When we used to have a camper van we normally stayed at some of the many minimum faclities licenced sites,  usually fields let by farmers and only licenced for a maximum of 5 caravans or camper vans plus 5 tents. The only facilties were normally a water tap and somewhere to empty your chemical toilet. I doubt that it would be financially economic for such sites to provide charging 

We go to pub carparks mainly with Britstops so no facilities, but if it's a campsite we choose electricity its more fun

[Jen-in-Wellies]

A couple of interesting articles on Norway and battery electric vehicles.

First one from the Grauniad again, on how half of all cars sold in 2020 where BEV's.

But where are these crazy Norwegians going to charge them? What if they live out in the sticks and not in Oslo? What if they don't have a front drive? What if they need to do a long journey?

One from Reuters on their charging network roll out to support all these wizzy electric cars and temporary tax incentives to get people to switch.

Ironically, Norway is a rich country that can afford this from selling fossil oil and gas! However, they invested the cash in a sovereign wealth fund, rather than blowing it on tax cuts for rich people.

Jen

Edited January 6, 2021 by Jen-in-Wellies

[phantom_iv]

27 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A couple of interesting articles on Norway and battery electric vehicles.

First one from the Grauniad again, on how half of all cars sold in 2020 where BEV's.

But where are these crazy Norwegians going to charge them? What if they live out in the sticks and not in Oslo? What if they don't have a front drive? What if they need to do a long journey?

One from Reuters on their charging network roll out to support all these wizzy electric cars and temporary tax incentives to get people to switch.

 

Norway's been working on this for a long time - tax on fossil-fuels cars is eye-wateringly high (a base spec 1 litre VW Golf will cost you north of £35k, VW sells the ID3 for virtually the same price), and they've had non-financial incentives for electric cars - for example, you used to (not sure if you still do) get free parking, free ferry travel and best of all could drive in the bus lanes in Oslo. I think they've scrapped the free ferry travel since the Reuters article was written (2018) though as the demand was so high.

 

One of my former colleagues took great pleasure in driving his Tesla model S down the bus lane in Oslo during rush hour.

 

Oh, and the taxes on fossil fuel are as high as ours. Put together as a package, it would have been an exercise in insanity to buy a non-electric car in Norway in the last ~5 years or so, especially when they often cost more than electric cars to buy

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by phantom_iv

[Murflynn]

12 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

 

Norway's been working on this for a long time - tax on fossil-fuels cars is eye-wateringly high (a base spec 1 litre VW Golf will cost you north of £35k, VW sells the ID3 for virtually the same price), and they've had non-financial incentives for electric cars - for example, you used to (not sure if you still do) get free parking, free ferry travel and best of all could drive in the bus lanes in Oslo. I think they've scrapped the free ferry travel since the Reuters article was written (2018) though as the demand was so high.

 

One of my former colleagues took great pleasure in driving his Tesla model S down the bus lane in Oslo during rush hour.

 

Oh, and the taxes on fossil fuel are as high as ours. Put together as a package, it would have been an exercise in insanity to buy a non-electric car in Norway in the last ~5 years or so, especially when they often cost more than electric cars to buy

 

but what is the situation re. charging points, which was Jen's main point?

[Sea Dog]

4 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

but what is the situation re. charging points, which was Jen's main point?

With the market so heavily skewed, maybe they just buy a new car when the battery is flat? It wouldn't work for Brits - last time I was there it was all I could do to afford a pizza!

[peterboat]

18 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

With the market so heavily skewed, maybe they just buy a new car when the battery is flat? It wouldn't work for Brits - last time I was there it was all I could do to afford a pizza!

I have been twice first time for 3 months jan-march second time 1 month in june lovely country but eye watering expensive

[phantom_iv]

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

but what is the situation re. charging points, which was Jen's main point?

 

These days there's absolutely tonnes of them. They seem pretty frequent along all major roads according to plugshare.com - often multiple choices in the same place. People living out in the sticks are much more likely to have off-street parking for easy charging at home. Seems like a lot of petrol stations e.g. shell are installing them rather than finding they don't have any business in a few years time.

 

A lot city centre & supermarket car parks have free chargers too. It's easier to find somewhere to charge an EV than to fill up with fossil fuels.

Edited January 6, 2021 by phantom_iv

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, phantom_iv said:

 

These days there's absolutely tonnes of them. They seem pretty frequent along all major roads according to plugshare.com - often multiple choices in the same place. People living out in the sticks are much more likely to have off-street parking for easy charging at home. Seems like a lot of petrol stations e.g. shell are installing them rather than finding they don't have any business in a few years time.

Same will happen here, its just progress to a cleaner quieter life

[phantom_iv]

Just now, peterboat said:

Same will happen here, its just progress to a cleaner quieter life

Indeed. They're popping up all over the place. I went to my local supermarket last night for the first time in a few weeks and found it had gained a row of EV chargers since my last visit.

[Keeping Up]

A small carpark near us had a couple of charging points installed 2 years ago but I've only ever seen one in use on two occasions in all that time. They have however just installed 4 more points, which now makes it almost half the spaces there. I was interested to see, when I stopped to have a look last week, that the electricity from them costs a massive 30p per unit.

 

Outside our doctor/chemist/dentist complex there is a small carpark with 20 spaces. They recently reserved 4 of them for electric vehicles only, with charging points. At the same time they reserved 4 of them for parents with toddlers, and 8 of them were converted to be 6 spaces for disabled people. That only leaves 4 others; competition for them is quite strong although of course many people just ignore the signage and park in the reserved slots which would otherwise be mainly empty.

[phantom_iv]

17 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

I was interested to see, when I stopped to have a look last week, that the electricity from them costs a massive 30p per unit.

This isn't unusual - some charges can go even higher than this. 30p/kwh works out somewhere in the region of 7.5p/mile, which is still a decent saving on current petrol costs. Obviously if you charge at home you'll save a lot more, but public infrastructure has to pay for its installation cost somehow.

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

I have been twice first time for 3 months jan-march second time 1 month in june lovely country but eye watering expensive

Do you mean that whilst cars are cheap, the pizzas are eye wateringly expensive? Not to mention needing a mortgage for the drink to go with it?

[IanD]

The issue with BEV towing caravans -- or Alan's horse trailer -- is that today the BEV market is relatively small (except in Norway -- but that's only big in percentage terms, its still small in absolute numbers), people who want to tow caravans are a small fraction of that market, and those who want to tow horse trailers an even smaller one. So until the BEV market grows enough to pay back the development costs, no manufacturer is going to develop/market BEV optimised for these markets -- it will happen eventually, but not until the total BEV market is bigger.

 

Tesla's not developing the Cybertruck just because he can, it's because the market for "trucks" in the USA is enormous -- IIRC the Ford F150 is the biggest-selling vehicle there *of any type* (almost a million last year), outselling SUVs which in turn outsell cars.

 

If this happens to suit caravanners or Alan (except it won't because he wants his to be dirt cheap too...) then they'll have a solution soon, if not it'll emerge in the near future when there's a big enough market -- but don't expect the cost to be the same as "normal" vehicles, anything made in small volumes costs more so there'll be a price adder. Also don't forget that the fact we drive on the left in the UK also drops the market size further compared to RHD cars, so the development/homologation cost per vehicle is even bigger.

Edited January 6, 2021 by IanD

[nb Innisfree]

2 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

I was interested to see, when I stopped to have a look last week, that the electricity from them costs a massive 30p per unit.

Still cheaper than petrol. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

A small carpark near us had a couple of charging points installed 2 years ago but I've only ever seen one in use on two occasions in all that time. They have however just installed 4 more points, which now makes it almost half the spaces there. I was interested to see, when I stopped to have a look last week, that the electricity from them costs a massive 30p per unit.

 

Outside our doctor/chemist/dentist complex there is a small carpark with 20 spaces. They recently reserved 4 of them for electric vehicles only, with charging points. At the same time they reserved 4 of them for parents with toddlers, and 8 of them were converted to be 6 spaces for disabled people. That only leaves 4 others; competition for them is quite strong although of course many people just ignore the signage and park in the reserved slots which would otherwise be mainly empty.

At our local ASDA the 2 electric vehicle charging points/bays are adjacent to the click and collect bays. People just use them as over flow parking for the click and collect spaces. There is rarely if ever an electric vehicle in them.

[ditchcrawler]

 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

The start of this thread had loads of posts saying "No one is going to get an electric car 'cause there is nowhere to charge them". There are now a lot of recent posts saying "There are all these charging posts being installed, but they are hardly used. What a waste of parking". I've not checked and I am not going to, but I wonder how many are being posted by the same people! ?

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The start of this thread had loads of posts saying "No one is going to get an electric car 'cause there is nowhere to charge them". There are now a lot of recent posts saying "There are all these charging posts being installed, but they are hardly used. What a waste of parking". I've not checked and I am not going to, but I wonder how many are being posted by the same people! ?

There is a real problem though on these charging points. There are numerous different suppliers, all requiring different apps to access them and many of the older ones not working. I only use the motorway super chargers for my Tesla and never go near the others as the can be very flakey. It's different in Scotland where charge point Scotland have done a great job of installing hundreds of charge points that were free to use ...and still are in Falkirk.... I am sure there are some good charging networks other than Tesla in Engerlund but I am not sure which ones they are. It would certainly put me off buying another make of BEV.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

There is a real problem though on these charging points. There are numerous different suppliers, all requiring different apps to access them and many of the older ones not working. I only use the motorway super chargers for my Tesla and never go near the others as the can be very flakey. It's different in Scotland where charge point Scotland have done a great job of installing hundreds of charge points that were free to use ...and still are in Falkirk.... I am sure there are some good charging networks other than Tesla in Engerlund but I am not sure which ones they are. It would certainly put me off buying another make of BEV.

 

Here is what one Tesla owner has done to overcome the problem of the lack of charging points :

 

 

 

 

And another family who needed a range -extender

 

 

[phantom_iv]

27 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I am sure there are some good charging networks other than Tesla in Engerlund but I am not sure which ones they are.

 

Instavolt are excellent. Tesla's supercharger network is a major competitive advantage for them though at present.