phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[Murflynn]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I am sure I read somewhere that devices were going to be installed that would keep the grid in frequency, I thought it was a huge spinning wheel but of course I could have been dreaming?, the article said these and large scale battery storage would resolve the problem

If we could find the axis of the spin of the Earth and install big bearings and a method of storing and withdrawing energy from the momentum of the spin we could do just that. 

 

In fact if we are prepared to accept longer and longer days we could source all our energy from the spin for several centuries to come until the spin becomes so slow that the gyroscopic effect fails and the planet just wobbles and then stops and falls over on its side like one of those spinning tops we had as children.    

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

If we could find the axis of the spin of the Earth and install big bearings and a method of storing and withdrawing energy from the momentum of the spin we could do just that. 

 

In fact if we are prepared to accept longer and longer days we could source all our energy from the spin for several centuries to come until the spin becomes so slow that the gyroscopic effect fails and the planet just wobbles and then stops and falls over on its side like one of those spinning tops we had as children.    

You're not Bizzard,s sock puppet are you?

[Ronaldo47]

It is the mechanical inertia of conventional rotating machine generators that keeps the grid frequency stable. At least  today's news of EDF beng awarded a contract for the consruction of a new nuclear power station will provide some new rotating machine generators to partially compensate for the prospective loss of rotating machines when existing conventional power stations are decomissioned. 

 

Simply widening the frequency tolerance is not without its problems. Part of the disruption to the rail network caused by   the frequency-related grid shutdown was down to the latest generations of electric trains having electronic circuitry that monitors the supply frequency. If it goes outside  limits it is treated as a serious fault condition that the driver cannot clear himself. The  trains could only be got going again after having been visited in person by a technician with a laptop!  The older trains could roll as soon as the electricity supply was restored, but found the lines blocked by the newer trains.   

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 hours ago, Murflynn said:

If we could find the axis of the spin of the Earth and install big bearings and a method of storing and withdrawing energy from the momentum of the spin we could do just that. 

 

In fact if we are prepared to accept longer and longer days we could source all our energy from the spin for several centuries to come until the spin becomes so slow that the gyroscopic effect fails and the planet just wobbles and then stops and falls over on its side like one of those spinning tops we had as children.    

For a renewable resource, just wrap a length of string around the equator and send up a rocket with the end to snag a passing comet to speed up the earth again. ?

Bruce Willis seems to be the expert at this sort of thing, so send him.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Ronaldo47 said:

It is the mechanical inertia of conventional rotating machine generators that keeps the grid frequency stable. At least  today's news of EDF beng awarded a contract for the consruction of a new nuclear power station will provide some new rotating machine generators to partially compensate for the prospective loss of rotating machines when existing conventional power stations are decomissioned. 

 

Simply widening the frequency tolerance is not without its problems. Part of the disruption to the rail network caused by   the frequency-related grid shutdown was down to the latest generations of electric trains having electronic circuitry that monitors the supply frequency. If it goes outside  limits it is treated as a serious fault condition that the driver cannot clear himself. The  trains could only be got going again after having been visited in person by a technician with a laptop!  The older trains could roll as soon as the electricity supply was restored, but found the lines blocked by the newer trains.   

 

So I wasn't dreaming 

[phantom_iv]

1 hour ago, Ronaldo47 said:

It is the mechanical inertia of conventional rotating machine generators that keeps the grid frequency stable. At least  today's news of EDF beng awarded a contract for the consruction of a new nuclear power station will provide some new rotating machine generators to partially compensate for the prospective loss of rotating machines when existing conventional power stations are decomissioned. 

 

Simply widening the frequency tolerance is not without its problems. Part of the disruption to the rail network caused by   the frequency-related grid shutdown was down to the latest generations of electric trains having electronic circuitry that monitors the supply frequency. If it goes outside  limits it is treated as a serious fault condition that the driver cannot clear himself. The  trains could only be got going again after having been visited in person by a technician with a laptop!  The older trains could roll as soon as the electricity supply was restored, but found the lines blocked by the newer trains.   

 

Synthetic Intertia is a thing now - they found in the big battery in Australia (Hornsdale power reserve) that it could respond way quicker to frequency changes in the grid than the coal plants that were contracted to provide frequency response services. So it's possible the grid frequency might get more stable rather than less if we get a ton of these big batteries connected - e.g. a battery farm in Dorset went online earlier this year - not at the same scale as Aus though but still a good start.

 

However I'm all for more Nuclear - we need to keep the lights on when the wind's not blowing and the sun's not shining somehow!

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, phantom_iv said:

Synthetic Intertia is a thing now - they found in the big battery in Australia (Hornsdale power reserve) that it could respond way quicker to frequency changes in the grid than the coal plants that were contracted to provide frequency response services. So it's possible the grid frequency might get more stable rather than less if we get a ton of these big batteries connected - e.g. a battery farm in Dorset went online earlier this year - not at the same scale as Aus though but still a good start.

 

However I'm all for more Nuclear - we need to keep the lights on when the wind's not blowing and the sun's not shining somehow!

 

Batteries require inverters to convert the output to AC.

 

Whilst inverters can respond to frequency changes very rapidly, they have very poor overload characteristics compared to rotating generators of the same rating.

 

So they compensate rapidly for a short time, then drop the load.

Edited December 14, 2020 by cuthound
Spillung

[NB DW]

An interesting read.  If only I could understand half of it!  ?

 

I started a thread earlier this summer after selling a smaller boat with the intention of buying a larger one to live on and shared my worries over ICE and their future.  I pulled out of the sale for that reason, mainly due to concerns over diesel availability and cost in the near-ish future, but mostly over what the resale value might be say 10 years from now.  Perhaps scrap if it's still a diesel engine in it?  Seems there's no viable alternative come about in the 6 months or so since I posted here last ? 

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, NB DW said:

An interesting read.  If only I could understand half of it!  ?

 

I started a thread earlier this summer after selling a smaller boat with the intention of buying a larger one to live on and shared my worries over ICE and their future.  I pulled out of the sale for that reason, mainly due to concerns over diesel availability and cost in the near-ish future, but mostly over what the resale value might be say 10 years from now.  Perhaps scrap if it's still a diesel engine in it?  Seems there's no viable alternative come about in the 6 months or so since I posted here last ? 

And yet I have had an electric boat for ever 2 year's  it does what I require so maybe you aren't committed to a boating life?

[NB DW]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

And yet I have had an electric boat for ever 2 year's  it does what I require so maybe you aren't committed to a boating life?

Or perhaps I'm going with the general consesus across the last 28 pages?

[Ronaldo47]

If the government's plans on upgrading the electricity supply network are as successful as their track record on upgrading IT systems, a certain amount of delay and increase in costs can both be expected! 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Ronaldo47
Typos

[mrsmelly]

10 hours ago, NB DW said:

An interesting read.  If only I could understand half of it!  ?

 

I started a thread earlier this summer after selling a smaller boat with the intention of buying a larger one to live on and shared my worries over ICE and their future.  I pulled out of the sale for that reason, mainly due to concerns over diesel availability and cost in the near-ish future, but mostly over what the resale value might be say 10 years from now.  Perhaps scrap if it's still a diesel engine in it?  Seems there's no viable alternative come about in the 6 months or so since I posted here last ? 

To be honest if the small problem of diesel via something else comes into your way of thinking then you dont realy want to live on a boat. Stay on land. If you want to live on a boat resale value is secondary.

[peterboat]

9 hours ago, NB DW said:

Or perhaps I'm going with the general consesus across the last 28 pages?

And yet my boat keeps on boating, you have to remember this is a discussion forum it doesnt make them experts, in fact if something works that will take their beloved diesel engine away they become deniers of tech. A good generator can charge lithium batteries up quicker than a boat engine, in fact it can put in five hours of cruising in one hour, along with solar that cleans up boating  a lot. If run on full biodiesel it makes it even cleaner [assuming bio made from waste products rather than growing for the job]. Serial hybrids work and work well as long as you have plenty of solar, they are just about the best hope for boating, until charging points are installed on the network. The genny can also heat water or run an electric cooker allowing for a gasless boat. Most of the time boaters arnt in any hurry as its just a hobby or a way of life, if it takes 3 days instead of 2 to get somewhere does it matter?

Heating is another issue, most use coal with additional wood, some use just wood and of course a minority have gas/diesel heating. All create pollution so thats always going to be a problem, I just try to burn as much well seasoned wood as possible, not ideal but the best I cam do.

So you have decided that you cant make boating work, thats ok it doesnt impact me at all. But if its what you really want to do, you will make it work like I have

[IanD]

10 hours ago, peterboat said:

And yet I have had an electric boat for ever 2 year's  it does what I require so maybe you aren't committed to a boating life?

<sigh> nothing to do with commitment -- your boat does what you require but not what many people require, for reasons repeated ad nauseam... ?

 

(for those new to the discussion, Peter has a wideboat with masses of solar panels (which won't fit on a narrowboat), and doesn't cruise for long periods -- and has a diesel generator, so it's a series hybrid not an all-electric boat)

Edited December 15, 2020 by IanD

[IanD]

10 hours ago, NB DW said:

An interesting read.  If only I could understand half of it!  ?

 

I started a thread earlier this summer after selling a smaller boat with the intention of buying a larger one to live on and shared my worries over ICE and their future.  I pulled out of the sale for that reason, mainly due to concerns over diesel availability and cost in the near-ish future, but mostly over what the resale value might be say 10 years from now.  Perhaps scrap if it's still a diesel engine in it?  Seems there's no viable alternative come about in the 6 months or so since I posted here last ? 

Electric can work but most people will still need an onboard diesel generator -- in other words, a series hybrid -- to provide energy when solar can't do so, which means in winter or when you want to cruise all day for more than a couple of days in a row. This will only change when a charging network that covers the entire system is put in place.

[Sea Dog]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

This will only change when a charging network that covers the entire system is put in place.

Don't hold your breath, will you. If somehow the vast amount of money for the infrastructure was found, and it surely wouldn't be recoverable for a commercial venture, it'd be like queuing for Grindley Brook Locks.

[peterboat]

18 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Don't hold your breath, will you. If somehow the vast amount of money for the infrastructure was found, and it surely wouldn't be recoverable for a commercial venture, it'd be like queuing for Grindley Brook Locks.

Exactly Ian won't listen, the IWA are banging the drum at the moment, but all I can say is 

A, CRT would be happy with no boats 

B, CRT doesn't supply diesel so why electric?

In reality people will have to do what is required to boat, as I keep on saying to Ian we arnt important, if it takes longer to do a trip it doesn't matter in the slightest! 

I wont stress about it boat makers are catching on and serial hybrids with loads of solar will become the norm 

 

[StephenA]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I wont stress about it boat makers are catching on and serial hybrids with loads of solar will become the norm 

 

 

There is a limit to the amount of solar you can put on something like a 52 foot cruiser stern narrow boat. So for most people who want to cruise more than a couple of hours a day then it has to be serial hybrid until there is enough infrastructure to charge up all the boats (which will be never).

[IanD]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Exactly Ian won't listen, the IWA are banging the drum at the moment, but all I can say is 

A, CRT would be happy with no boats 

B, CRT doesn't supply diesel so why electric?

In reality people will have to do what is required to boat, as I keep on saying to Ian we arnt important, if it takes longer to do a trip it doesn't matter in the slightest! 

I wont stress about it boat makers are catching on and serial hybrids with loads of solar will become the norm 

 

I didn't intent to say it *was* going to happen -- nice though that would be -- I said that this was the only thing that *could* fix the problem and remove the need for diesel onboard. Maybe I should have chosen words that made this clearer...

 

Series hybrids with solar may well become the norm, it's probably what I'd get if I was having a new boat built. The problem for a narrowboat is that "loads of solar" still isn't enough unless you only want to move for a couple of long days a week in the summer or not at all in winter, your wideboat works for you because you can fit a lot more solar on a much bigger roof and don't travel much.

 

You're being Peter-centric again, saying "if it takes longer to do a trip it doesn't matter in the slightest!" isn't true for everybody, certainly most of the hire boat industry who I know many boaters look down on but which provides a lot of income to CART -- or non-full-time-liveaboarders who want to get from A to B in a reasonable time because that's how much time they've got. You're correct that if everyone changes their lifestyle and boating style to be the same as yours this would help, but they might not want to and why should they?

 

BTW a boat with a diesel generator onboard is not an "electric boat", it's a diesel series hybrid -- I know "electric boat" sounds much cleaner and cooler, but it's misleading ?

1 hour ago, StephenA said:

 

There is a limit to the amount of solar you can put on something like a 52 foot cruiser stern narrow boat. So for most people who want to cruise more than a couple of hours a day then it has to be serial hybrid until there is enough infrastructure to charge up all the boats (which will be never).

"Never" is a very long time... ?

 

Do you really think that the government -- which we vote for, remember -- will allow the entire leisure boat industry (including canals) in the UK to vanish by enforcing the removal of diesel engines but failing to ensure that charging points for electric boats (canals and rivers and coastal) are available? That's an awful lot of voters to p*ss off, and a lot of revenue from boat building/sale/hire/marina businesses that would disappear.

 

The charging points don't have to be installed by the government, just like on the roads there are plenty of private companies who could step up and make money by doing this, though it might need some subsidy to help it happen just like many other green initiatives. Or the government could make it a condition of being allowed to install (profitable) car charging points that companies also install some boat ones, even of these are less profitable there would be maybe 100x fewer so it's hardly going to dent their profits.

 

It's probably not going to happen quickly, but I'll bet it does happen sooner than "never"...

Edited December 15, 2020 by IanD

[Sea Dog]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Do you really think that the government -- which we vote for, remember -- will allow the entire leisure boat industry (including canals) in the UK to vanish by enforcing the removal of diesel engines but failing to ensure that charging points for electric boats (canals and rivers and coastal) are available? That's an awful lot of voters to p*ss off, and a lot of revenue from boat building/sale/hire/marina businesses that would disappear.

I really think that if the "Leisure Boat industry (including canals) in the UK" were to lose the canal boating part,  few outside our ranks would bat an eyelid.  The numbers involved are so small that we would not amount to enough to motivate anyone to fund a meaningful charging infrastructure.  Our best hope is that those same small numbers are regarded as an insignificant eco issue and are granted an exemption to retain legacy diesel power.

 

More likely perhaps is that the canals will be quieter for a while as some follow a model similar to that of  @peterboat and then, as the infrastructure becomes insupportable for such a tiny few, that the canals will become linear nature reserves, fishing venues or simply be abandoned again.

 

@peterboat

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

I really think that if the "Leisure Boat industry (including canals) in the UK" were to lose the canal boating part,  few outside our ranks would bat an eyelid.  The numbers involved are so small that we would not amount to enough to motivate anyone to fund a meaningful charging infrastructure.  Our best hope is that those same small numbers are regarded as an insignificant eco issue and are granted an exemption to retain legacy diesel power.

 

More likely perhaps is that the canals will be quieter for a while as some follow a model similar to that of  @peterboat and then, as the infrastructure becomes insupportable for such a tiny few, that the canals will become linear nature reserves, fishing venues or simply be abandoned again.

 

@peterboat

Do you think that installing charging points for the canals is somehow divorced from installing charging points for river/coastal marinas/harbours, where there are far more boats and probably a lot more money? Solve one problem and you've solved both, there are similar cost/access drivers in both cases. Of course if you think that the government will be happy to see the entire boating sector disappear that's another problem entirely...

 

Since the emissions from boats -- especially on canals -- are minute compared to cars (canals are ~10000x smaller?) it would make perfect sense from this point of view to allow an exception for legacy diesel -- there will certainly have to be a transition period anyway, just like on the roads. But making sensible exceptions to a blanket rule is not something governments are good at, not helped by the fact that they'd then either be pilloried in some quarters by misguided environmentalists or swamped by pleas from a hundred other sectors that they should be a special case too.

 

I think people are overstating the difficulty and cost of getting a network of charging points around the canals, it's really not that difficult and doesn't involve spending tens of thousands of pounds running mains several miles across countryside to each point. There are just over 2000 miles of canals, and if we follow the same spacing as water points (target is "half a day's travel" between them) we'd need about 200 charging points, and the vast majority of these could be at places which already have power like boatyards, marinas, towns and villages, canalside shops and pubs -- which in all cases would make money by selling power above the base network rate, just like car charging points do. The overall charging power requirements are tiny compared to cars, similar to a handful of houses at each point which the grid seems to be perfectly able to cope with. Boats would need to charge up roughly as often as they have to fill up at water points, and for roughly the same time.

 

If you don't believe me, do what I did and go and analyse the numbers instead of just saying "it'll never work, it's all too difficult, woe is me" -- it's really *not* that difficult or expensive, what it does need is the will to make it happen and some (possibly political) drive behind it, which might only happen if there is pressure from the public.

 

So maybe if all the boating communities (lumpy water as well as canals) got together and started making some noise about this and putting practical proposals together instead of ignoring it or doom-mongering then we might actually be much better off in future?

Edited December 15, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Do you think that installing charging points for the canals is somehow divorced from installing charging points for river/coastal marinas/harbours, where there are far more boats and probably a lot more money? Solve one problem and you've solved both, there are similar cost/access drivers in both cases. Of course if you think that the government will be happy to see the entire boating sector disappear that's another problem entirely...

 

Since the emissions from boats -- especially on canals -- are minute compared to cars (canals are ~10000x smaller?) it would make perfect sense from this point of view to allow an exception for legacy diesel -- there will certainly have to be a transition period anyway, just like on the roads. But making sensible exceptions to a blanket rule is not something governments are good at, not helped by the fact that they'd then either be pilloried in some quarters by misguided environmentalists or swamped by pleas from a hundred other sectors that they should be a special case too.

 

I think people are overstating the difficulty and cost of getting a network of charging points around the canals, it's really not that difficult and doesn't involve spending tens of thousands of pounds running mains several miles across countryside to each point. There are just over 2000 miles of canals, and if we follow the same spacing as water points (target is "half a day's travel" between them) we'd need about 200 charging points, and the vast majority of these could be at places which already have power like boatyards, marinas, towns and villages, canalside shops and pubs -- which in all cases would make money by selling power above the base network rate, just like car charging points do. The overall charging power requirements are tiny compared to cars, similar to a handful of houses at each point which the grid seems to be perfectly able to cope with. Boats would need to charge up roughly as often as they have to fill up at water points, and for roughly the same time.

 

If you don't believe me, do what I did and go and analyse the numbers instead of just saying "it'll never work, it's all too difficult, woe is me" -- it's really *not* that difficult or expensive, what it does need is the will to make it happen and some (possibly political) drive behind it, which might only happen if there is pressure from the public.

 

So maybe if all the boating communities (lumpy water as well as canals) got together and started making some noise about this and putting practical proposals together instead of ignoring it or doom-mongering then we might actually be much better off in future?

Or let them have clean biodiesel at 20 quid a litre some will pay it others wont!

I honestly dont think they will put in power points, its not in their nature to do it [CRT] they will leave it up to us to sort out the issues after all few boats moving means less wear and tear and bigger bonuses for CRT

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Do you think that installing charging points for the canals is somehow divorced from installing charging points for river/coastal marinas/harbours,

 

Yes, because..

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 there are far more boats and probably a lot more money? 

 

But you don't have to!

 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Yes, because..

But you don't have to!

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to differ then ?

 

Just bear in mind that if the government bans diesel on the canals and doesn't provide an alternative, they're likely to face a class action suit for damages from all the people whose boats / residences are now not only unable to be used but have no viable replacement and are potentially made homeless. This shouldn't cost them much more than 10x the cost of installing charging points, so since it's all about the money the obvious conclusion is... ?

Edited December 15, 2020 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Do you think that installing charging points for the canals is somehow divorced from installing charging points for river/coastal marinas/harbours, where there are far more boats and probably a lot more money? Solve one problem and you've solved both, there are similar cost/access drivers in both cases. Of course if you think that the government will be happy to see the entire boating sector disappear that's another problem entirely...

I would suggest that the majority of 'lumpy water' (coastal) boats** will be moored at night in a marina, (marina hopping) this marina already has electricity supplied to every mooring, if there is 'enough' is another question but the infrastructure is there to support electric boat charging.

 

I would further postulate that on the canals, the vast majority of boats do not 'marina hop' and moor up 'alongside' the towpath in the 'wilds' where there is absolutely no infrastructure for charging.

 

Coastal boats simply need a thicker bit of wire, Canal boats need a completely new bit of string laying out and all the bollards, transformers etc etc.

 

 

** Assuming 'Motor Cruisers' as sailing boats are unlikely to need to recharge their batteries anyway.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Alan de Enfield