phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Thankfully the people running industry and countries know you are wrong, yesterday I went to London and back it was business so allowed, my mate who went with me was amazed at how many electric vehicles he saw, the uptake on on electric vehicles since BIK was changed for EVs has prompted many purchases of them. Also the electric taxis where everywhere, he commented that since electric vehicles and boats were becoming the norm in Amsterdam the air quality had massively improved (air quality is part of his job). We also only saw 3 planes whilst passing Luton and Heathrow which will no doubt help London air quality. For the world to have a future fossil fuels have to go. As an aside according to splash 24/7 a marine letter 27% of new big boats are be powered by anything but bunker fuel! This is things like LNG, various other gases Hydrogen etc. and plans are afoot for small nuclear reactors for the big stuff,things are changing thankfully for my grandchildren to have a future. 

Not saying any of this is wrong but I don't see you can legitimately extrapolate the number of EVs from a compact urban environment to all of the UK. Range or the ready availability of fast charge points nationwide from cities to small villages has to improve. I also suspect that with the present technology the taxies cabbies can  hire may not be best suited to 24 hour operation by two or more drivers.

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not saying any of this is wrong but I don't see you can legitimately extrapolate the number of EVs from a compact urban environment to all of the UK. Range or the ready availability of fast charge points nationwide from cities to small villages has to improve. I also suspect that with the present technology the taxies cabbies can  hire may not be best suited to 24 hour operation by two or more drivers.

Taxis have no choice and charging points are available at ranks, the world is changing for the cleaner thankfully 

[Tracy D'arth]

I am concerned about the economies of EVs.

 

Noticed that the new Corsa, a detestable car in its youth, is advertised as doing 70 mpg, very creditable with a catalyst exhaust.

However the charging points in Morrisons car park are £1 to connect and 30p per kwH which seems very dear as we only pay 16p per kwH but that is farm rate.

 

How does that equate to pence per mile? Must be very poor value with the heater and the wipers and the heated screen all turned on in winter.

 

An acquaintance has gone the EV route with his charging point on his house. Not only did  he have to pay over £1000 for installation, but he was dumb struck when he got his first bill to find that his day use rate was considerably more expensive now. No body told him that this would be so.

 

No wonder many Hybrids never get charged  off the mains, they just get petrol poured in.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I am concerned about the economies of EVs.

 

Noticed that the new Corsa, a detestable car in its youth, is advertised as doing 70 mpg, very creditable with a catalyst exhaust.

However the charging points in Morrisons car park are £1 to connect and 30p per kwH which seems very dear as we only pay 16p per kwH but that is farm rate.

 

How does that equate to pence per mile? Must be very poor value with the heater and the wipers and the heated screen all turned on in winter.

 

An acquaintance has gone the EV route with his charging point on his house. Not only did  he have to pay over £1000 for installation, but he was dumb struck when he got his first bill to find that his day use rate was considerably more expensive now. No body told him that this would be so.

 

No wonder many Hybrids never get charged  off the mains, they just get petrol poured in.

 

Unlike for the resale of electricity to flats, boats, caravans etc, for which the seller can only sell at the same price as they pay, The law has been changed to allow sellers of electricity for use by EV's to sell at whatever price they wish, this is  :

 

1) To encourage the installation of EV charging bollards (which will make the company a profit)

2) To allow the investors in EV bollards to recoup their initial infrastructure costs.

 

 

 

[peterboat]

23 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I am concerned about the economies of EVs.

 

Noticed that the new Corsa, a detestable car in its youth, is advertised as doing 70 mpg, very creditable with a catalyst exhaust.

However the charging points in Morrisons car park are £1 to connect and 30p per kwH which seems very dear as we only pay 16p per kwH but that is farm rate.

 

How does that equate to pence per mile? Must be very poor value with the heater and the wipers and the heated screen all turned on in winter.

 

An acquaintance has gone the EV route with his charging point on his house. Not only did  he have to pay over £1000 for installation, but he was dumb struck when he got his first bill to find that his day use rate was considerably more expensive now. No body told him that this would be so.

 

No wonder many Hybrids never get charged  off the mains, they just get petrol poured in.

Government grants and shop for electric 

[Mad Harold]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

 

 

An acquaintance has gone the EV route with his charging point on his house. Not only did  he have to pay over £1000 for installation, but he was dumb struck when he got his first bill to find that his day use rate was considerably more expensive now. No body told him that this would be so.

 

No wonder many Hybrids never get charged  off the mains, they just get petrol poured in.

It takes forever I know to charge from a 13A house supply,but certainly cheaper (at present)

[peterboat]

24 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

It takes forever I know to charge from a 13A house supply,but certainly cheaper (at present)

My little electric car is happy to change from a 3 pin plug in fact its the only option ?

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I am concerned about the economies of EVs.

 

Noticed that the new Corsa, a detestable car in its youth, is advertised as doing 70 mpg, very creditable with a catalyst exhaust.

However the charging points in Morrisons car park are £1 to connect and 30p per kwH which seems very dear as we only pay 16p per kwH but that is farm rate.

 

How does that equate to pence per mile? Must be very poor value with the heater and the wipers and the heated screen all turned on in winter.

 

An acquaintance has gone the EV route with his charging point on his house. Not only did  he have to pay over £1000 for installation, but he was dumb struck when he got his first bill to find that his day use rate was considerably more expensive now. No body told him that this would be so.

 

No wonder many Hybrids never get charged  off the mains, they just get petrol poured in.

Diesel energy content is 37MJ/l, at current pump price of £1.18/l that's 3.2p/MJ. For BEV 1kWh=3.6MJ so at 30p/kWh that's 8.3p/MJ which at first look seems a lot more expensive.

 

But a diesel powertrain is typically 22% efficient overall, so cost of power at the wheels is 14.5p/MJ. A typical BEV powertrain is 64% efficient overall, which puts the energy cost at the wheels up to 13p/MJ.

 

So even at 30p/kWh the cost of energy for a BEV is lower than ICE, the break-even point is 34p/kWh.

 

However this ignores the fact that BEV are much more efficient at low power levels and low speeds than ICE, and use regenerative braking to return power to the batteries, which moves the break-even cost up a long way, my guesstimate is to at least 50p/kWh.

[Tracy D'arth]

25 minutes ago, peterboat said:

My little electric car is happy to change from a 3 pin plug in fact its the only option ?

What?  A Slot Racer?

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

What?  A Slot Racer?

Aixam mega city e with lithium polymer batteries 120 miles range 

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Aixam mega city e with lithium polymer batteries 120 miles range 

Interesting but slow, good town car which is what it was intended for. -

 

WoW- batteries are expensive, would rabbit Duracells be OK?

 

Would an alternator on a fifth wheel towed behind charge the battery as you drive?  Car charging trailer with a diesel engine on it so it will still charge when stood still? 

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Interesting but slow, good town car which is what it was intended for. -

 

WoW- batteries are expensive, would rabbit Duracells be OK?

 

Would an alternator on a fifth wheel towed behind charge the battery as you drive?  Car charging trailer with a diesel engine on it so it will still charge when stood still? 

17.6 kwh for 2.2k is not expensive also I have the software for it 50 mph available now. Costs peanuts to run and in summer charging from excess solar on boat

Edited December 6, 2020 by peterboat

[mrsmelly]

16 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Aixam mega city e with lithium polymer batteries 120 miles range 

Fine if you never go anywhere Peter old bean. I am looking forward to a day when modern technology can catch up with old. I drive 150  miles each way to mums care home normaly and there is no charging point there even if I could get that far in one go. I visit kids and Grandkids 220 miles away so again hopeless unless I had god only knows how many thousands of pounds to mug away on a new car££££ At present I and millions of others do this in sub 2k cars in comfort and reliability with 400 mile range and 3 minute to recharge to full again at thousands of places anywhere UK. Millions of people dont have big car budgets and they still need to get to work and travel, shop etc etc, public transport is non existant for the majority of the UK. Although governments waffle about what they will be doing in  nine years time ( They will all be long gone ) reality states that the government of that day will still need people to have affordable transport not shiny new Teslas, it simply isnt possible. Millions live in flats, terraced housing etc etc earning minimum wage.

Edited December 6, 2020 by mrsmelly

[Tracy D'arth]

Or this     https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AIXAM-MEGA-ELECTRIC-MULTI-TRUCK-600E-A/164561955370?hash=item2650a82a2a:g:64gAAOSw7rhfzLd6

 

With loads of solar panels on the roof?

[Momac]

23 hours ago, IanD said:

Instead of being doubtful you could always look at the facts.

Instead of accepting the facts as they are presented  is it not permitted to challenge their validity ?

I am open to being convinced but it seems you are not.

 

[mrsmelly]

16 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Interesting but slow, good town car which is what it was intended for. -

 

WoW- batteries are expensive, would rabbit Duracells be OK?

 

Would an alternator on a fifth wheel towed behind charge the battery as you drive?  Car charging trailer with a diesel engine on it so it will still charge when stood still? 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

WoW- batteries are expensive, would rabbit Duracells be OK?

I think you may be referring to the 'Duracell Bunny'

 

Duracel powered rabbits are something very different - do a google, or ask a friend

Edited December 6, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Instead of accepting the facts as they are presented  is it not permitted to challenge their validity ?

I am open to being convinced but it seems you are not.

 

You said "I am doubtful..." and provided no evidence to back this opinion up.

 

Me and others have provided plenty of evidence on this forum showing why your opinion is factually wrong, and why total BEV CO2 emissions over lifetime are a lot lower than ICE even including all the things you mentioned. There's a huge amount of hard scientific evidence showing this, arguing against it without facts is like arguing that climate change is not manmade -- you might possibly be able to find some biased pseudo-scientific article somewhere saying it ain't so, but >99% of reputable sources would disagree.

 

You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts ?

Edited December 6, 2020 by IanD

[Momac]

37 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

You are of course entitled to your own opinion

Good.

[peterboat]

56 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Or this     https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AIXAM-MEGA-ELECTRIC-MULTI-TRUCK-600E-A/164561955370?hash=item2650a82a2a:g:64gAAOSw7rhfzLd6

 

With loads of solar panels on the roof?

I have one of these as well with LifePo4s batteries and 900 watt of solar on the roof works well for the last 2 years and both vehicles cost me less than that one together including batteries!

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Fine if you never go anywhere Peter old bean. I am looking forward to a day when modern technology can catch up with old. I drive 150  miles each way to mums care home normaly and there is no charging point there even if I could get that far in one go. I visit kids and Grandkids 220 miles away so again hopeless unless I had god only knows how many thousands of pounds to mug away on a new car££££ At present I and millions of others do this in sub 2k cars in comfort and reliability with 400 mile range and 3 minute to recharge to full again at thousands of places anywhere UK. Millions of people dont have big car budgets and they still need to get to work and travel, shop etc etc, public transport is non existant for the majority of the UK. Although governments waffle about what they will be doing in  nine years time ( They will all be long gone ) reality states that the government of that day will still need people to have affordable transport not shiny new Teslas, it simply isnt possible. Millions live in flats, terraced housing etc etc earning minimum wage.

Tim when your mum goes to visit your dad in about 20 years, you will have an electric car regardless, as I honestly believe ICE ones will have been extinct long before that point 

[mrsmelly]

31 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Tim when your mum goes to visit your dad in about 20 years, you will have an electric car regardless, as I honestly believe ICE ones will have been extinct long before that point 

 Whichever way i read this it makes me smile old boy ? Mum actualy does believe she will meet my dad again someday but in twenty years time she would be 120 years old so I reckon it will be before then ?

[peterboat]

23 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

 Whichever way i read this it makes me smile old boy ? Mum actualy does believe she will meet my dad again someday but in twenty years time she would be 120 years old so I reckon it will be before then ?

Maybe not she has shown great fortitude up to press! ? and of course she will meet your dad again

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

  I drive 150  miles each way to mums care home normaly and there is no charging point there even if I could get that far in one go. 

But there will be. I remember when you had to make sure you filled with petrol before 8pm on a Friday due to lack of filling facilities overnight and weekends

[Jen-in-Wellies]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

  I drive 150  miles each way to mums care home normaly and there is no charging point there even if I could get that far in one go. 

But there will be. I remember when you had to make sure you filled with petrol before 8pm on a Friday due to lack of filling facilities overnight and weekends

Similarly a little over thirty years ago. If you had a rare car with a cataclysmic converter that would only run on unleaded petrol, finding a filling station that stocked it was tricky. Suddenly, it reached a critical density and you were OK. Shortly afterwards, 2 star and 3 star petrol disappeared from the pumps and the offerings were unleaded, 4 star and diesel. A few years later, 4 star went. A little more tricky with electric charging, but it will be a similar S shaped curve. That's the way these things go.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Jen-in-Wellies