phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[Alan de Enfield]

40 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Can you see that happening in a market as small as the canals?

 

It might work for those who dont cruise much, but CC'ers would struggle.

I'd suggest that many 'leisure boaters' cover far more miles than many CCers.

 

Most leisure boaters travel every day they are aboard, they are limited to the number of days they can be on board so make the best of it.

 

It seems that many CCers travel 1 day per week, or 1 day per 14 days, they are not in a rush to travel and 'see things' and have all year to do it in.

 

Then there are some who spend 6 months aboard and fit somewhere in between the two extremes - we will cruise, (maybe 12 hours per day) until we get somewhere, stay for a couple of days, cruise on and stay etc etc.

Probably (in normal times) we do around 1000 -1500 miles per Summer.

[Momac]

13 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I suspect if push came to shove boating for pleasure or as a cheap lifestyle option would probably not be viewed as essential for society to function properly if the climate change thing kicks in properly. 

What a boring word it would be if the only permitted activities have to be essential for society to function.

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

There's an idea. I don't own a car at the moment, so any driving I do is of hire cars mainly. Hence this is a lack of standardisation that vexes me! If I was mainly driving cars I'd TWOC'd, then 1) I wouldn't be bragging about it on an open forum and 2) I'd be abandoning and torching them before they needed filling up. ?

Jen

In case it helps, usually theres a tiny little arrow by the pump symbol on the fuel gauge nowadays which points to the side with the filler. Easy missed if you're not looking for it.

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Sea Dog
Spare word removed

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Sea Dog said:

In case it helps, usually theres a tiny little arrow telling by the pump symbol on the fuel gauge nowadays which points to the side with the filler. Easy missed if you're not looking for it.

 

In the old days it used to which side the filler on the fuel pump on the gauge that told you the side not any more sadly 

30 minutes ago, IanD said:

As I said before , that's not a credible figure on a canal -- not arguing with the power (1.5kW=2bhp), just the speed.

 

IIRC the Finesse post said that 1.5kW was the average power they used over a day when cruising, not to do 4mph (which is difficult on most canals anyway).

 

Going by experience plus engine power and propeller curves, on a canal 3kW/4bhp (1400rpm for a Beta 43 with a standard gearbox/prop) is a better estimate at normal cruising speed -- and of course less when passing moored boats (e.g. 1100rpm=1.5kW/2bhp, 1000rpm=1kW/1.3bhp), and zero in locks.

 

So depending on hours spent cruising/passing boats/in lock an average of 1.5kW is perfectly possible, which is 12kWh for a (long) 8 hour day -- or a little more allowing for losses. Could be more with fewer moored boats and locks, could be less with shorter days. YMMV ?

 

It's a proper canal Ian built for Sheffield size boats so it's not far out, also you forget you are losing 20% or more in gearbox losses electric motors dont

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, MartynG said:

What a boring word it would be if the only permitted activities have to be essential for society to function.

 

I'd suggest that it is not a case of being permitted, more a case of being unaffordable / being priced out, and/or society not being prepared to subsidise a minority activity.

 

Boating will be permitted but the legislation affecting the propulsion methods will fall under the same rules as for motor vehicles - Sales of both new boats and new cars will be banned from 2035 and there are discussions about bringing the 'passenger vehicles' forward to 2030.

 

The British government has announced plans to bring forward an outright ban on the sale of all gasoline- and diesel-powered passenger cars—even hybrids—just 15 years from now.

 

Only Zero emission boats will be allowed in UK waters (Inland and coastal) after 2050.

 

Some smaller European countries have already set even more aggressive targets, with Norway banning conventional cars in 2025 and Sweden, Iceland, Denmark, Iceland and the Netherlands aiming for 2030. Oh, and Scotland—determined as ever to be slightly ahead of the rest of the U.K.—wants to ban conventional car sales in 2032.

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

In case it helps, usually theres a tiny little arrow by the pump symbol on the fuel gauge nowadays which points to the side with the filler. Easy missed if you're not looking for it.

 

Its wrong on my Mercedes !!!!

Edited November 15, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 - Sales of both new boats and new cars will be banned from 2035 and there are discussions about bringing the 'passenger vehicles' forward to 2030.

 

 

Oops ! 

 

And yes making something expensive is a common way of compelling people to alter behaviour. 

 

There is no way that someone with a millions and millions of pounds will ever have problems accessing diesel for their classic superyacht but it's highly likely that ordinary people will be forced by the cost to change habits. 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by magnetman

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

The thing with canal boats is it doesn't take a lot to push them along. 

 

If there were regular battery swap stations and people were doing say 5 hour cruising days you would probably be looking at a 10kwh battery pack. 

 

LFP weight per Kwh is 6.5kg approximately. So a couple of 33kg batteries for a day of cruising? 

 

Not world endingly heavy. 

 

And on canals there is a bit of tendency for locks to be around. During locking the power use will be zero. So maybe a simple rule of thumb for a canal boat using 2kw for propulsion would be 10kg of battery per hour cruised.

 

This excludes domestic use, which can be provided by solar during cruising season. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But you cannot just work on average usage. Some canals have very few locks and you need to be able to do them as well - some last at least a day. Try cruising from Torksey to Boston on your average usage! Not to mention that on such level canals the water is deeper (Ashby being an exception!) which tends to encourage higher revs.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But you cannot just work on average usage. Some canals have very few locks and you need to be able to do them as well - some last at least a day. Try cruising from Torksey to Boston on your average usage! Not to mention that on such level canals the water is deeper (Ashby being an exception!) which tends to encourage higher revs.

And to get to Torksey in the 1st place you are having to do 20 miles 'ish on the Tidal Trent

[Momac]

 

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'd suggest that many 'leisure boaters' cover far more miles than many CCers.

That may well be true. 

The travelling is the fun bit . 

 

However we have stayed in one place  a week or so  on occasions and thought of the boat as the hotel with the best view in town.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The British government has announced plans to bring forward an outright ban on the sale of all gasoline- and diesel-powered passenger cars—even hybrids—just 15 years from now.

 

Only Zero emission boats will be allowed in UK waters (Inland and coastal) after 2050.

Isn't that now expected to be changed to 2030  for new cars. I don't think it applies to used cars .

 

 Instead of scrapping perfectly serviceable diesel engined boats it may be that such engines would be required to use 100% biofuel..........according to the document  document linked  below. So there is hope for diesel engines to continue beyond 2050.

https://www.waterways.org.uk/about-us/news/sustainable-boating-vision

 

 

 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And to get to Torksey in the 1st place you are having to do 20 miles 'ish on the Tidal Trent

The tidal bit of the Trent is the section I'd worry least about doing in an electric boat, as you can use the tide to do most of the work, especially north of Torksey. It might need the installation of a mooring, with charging mid way so people could do the stretch in two goes, not one, but perhaps not even that. I can do the Cromwell - Torksey and the Torksey - Keadby stretches each in around four hours, so half a long days cruise. Even with the prop turning faster than usual, that should still be within the batteries capabilities, providing it can be charge overnight before. That way, the cruise is being done with the tide for the most part. Against the tide is a whole other game and would drain batteries at a scary rate. The hard bit would be the non-tidal stretch from Cromwell to Nottingham and beyond to Shardlow, where to go upstream you need considerably more oomph than going down. That would require a lot of charging infrastructure and associated mooring installed to minimise the risk of boats running out of juice and drifting in to trouble.

Jen

[Onionman]

15 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Thats just how we use to do forklifts, a shed full of batteries on charge and charged, Forklift in and out in 2 or 3 minutes. But if you look at the number of cars visiting a Tesco petrol station in a hour you are going to need a big shed and a lot of batteries

 

Except that flow of cars will be minuscule. Given that well over 90% of journeys will be in the range of an overnight charge at home, there's not going to be much of a volume to that business.

[Cheshire cat]

Is lithium available in huge quantities and what is the process by which it is brought to a usable state? I'm just thinking about the embodied carbon.

 

At the moment we're only running the engine for 250 hours a year. The numbers are miniscule compared with the private car market. I suspect boats will be provided some "legacy heritage" status as are old cars today where low emission zones have been created.

[Onionman]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

There's an idea. I don't own a car at the moment, so any driving I do is of hire cars mainly. Hence this is a lack of standardisation that vexes me! If I was mainly driving cars I'd TWOC'd, then 1) I wouldn't be bragging about it on an open forum and 2) I'd be abandoning and torching them before they needed filling up. ?

Jen

 

This arrow by the pump sign tells you which side the filler cap is:

 

[Cheshire cat]

4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The tidal bit of the Trent is the section I'd worry least about doing in an electric boat, as you can use the tide to do most of the work, especially north of Torksey. It might need the installation of a mooring, with charging mid way so people could do the stretch in two goes, not one, but perhaps not even that. I can do the Cromwell - Torksey and the Torksey - Keadby stretches each in around four hours, so half a long days cruise. Even with the prop turning faster than usual, that should still be within the batteries capabilities, providing it can be charge overnight before. That way, the cruise is being done with the tide for the most part. Against the tide is a whole other game and would drain batteries at a scary rate. The hard bit would be the non-tidal stretch from Cromwell to Nottingham and beyond to Shardlow, where to go upstream you need considerably more oomph than going down. That would require a lot of charging infrastructure and associated mooring installed to minimise the risk of boats running out of juice and drifting in to trouble.

Jen

Time to deploy the oars ?

Actually, thinking about it the Vikings managed to get up to Nottingham without the help of Beta Marine

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Instead of scrapping perfectly serviceable diesel engined boats it may be that such engines would be required to use 100% biofuel..

Biofuel is specificaly mentioned in the 2050 document as NOT being acceptable, it still produces greenhouse gasses.

 

The (potentailly) new EDiesel fuel made from Algae and manufactured using surplus wind power would be accepted as 'zero emission'.

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Is lithium available in huge quantities and what is the process by which it is brought to a usable state? I'm just thinking about the embodied carbon.

 

At the moment we're only running the engine for 250 hours a year. The numbers are miniscule compared with the private car market. I suspect boats will be provided some "legacy heritage" status as are old cars today where low emission zones have been created.

The 2050 Maritime plan states that no 'non-zero' emission boats can be used in UK waters after 2050. (No historicals, no heritage, just NO boats with 'nasty engines')

 

By 2025 all new boats must be capable of being converted to zero emission
By 2035 no new boats can be built which are not 'zero emission' 

[Momac]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Biofuel is specificaly mentioned in the 2050 document as NOT being acceptable, it still produces greenhouse gasses.

As  does the generation of electricity. 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The 2050 Maritime plan states that no 'non-zero' emission boats can be used in UK waters after 2050. (No historicals, no heritage, just NO boats with 'nasty engines')

Its just a plan.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Its just a plan.

Tell that to the boat builders.

There is one (oft quoted) builder that (I think) has current orders for 8 and 7 of them are for electric.

 

 

Yes, it is a 'Plan' but it is actually the 'plan to achieve' (how to get there) the mandatory legal agreement reached a couple of years ago by the International Maritime Organisation and signed by most maritime nations.

The UK is planning to exceed the requirement and by doing so develop new technologies that can be sold to other nations.

 

IMO continues to contribute to the global fight against climate change, in support of the UN Sustainable Development Goal 13, to take urgent action to combat climate change and its impacts.

IMO has adopted mandatory measures to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases from international shipping, under IMO’s pollution prevention treaty (MARPOL) - the Energy Efficiency Design Index (EEDI) mandatory for new ships, and the Ship Energy Efficiency Management Plan (SEEMP).

 

The seventh meeting of the Intersessional Working Group on Reduction of GHG Emissions from Ships took place remotely (19-23 October 2020), ahead of the next Committee session, MEPC 75. The working group agreed draft new mandatory measures to cut the carbon intensity of ships, building on current mandatory energy efficiency requirements to further reduce greenhouse gas emissions from shipping. (Read more on the proposed amendments to MARPOL here). The draft amendments will be forwarded to the Marine Environment Protection Committee (MEPC 75), to be held in remote session 16-20 November 2020. 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

30 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Time to deploy the oars ?

Actually, thinking about it the Vikings managed to get up to Nottingham without the help of Beta Marine

I'll have to see if my friends Olaf and Sven want to go there for a pillage. ?

[TheBiscuits]

32 minutes ago, Onionman said:

 

This arrow by the pump sign tells you which side the filler cap is:

 

 

The yellow one or the white one?

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I'll have to see if my friends Olaf and Sven want to go there for a pillage. ?

 

“We’ve landed in the wrong place Cap’n,

they’re already into rape and pillage.”

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

In the old days it used to which side the filler on the fuel pump on the gauge that told you the side not any more sadly 

It's a proper canal Ian built for Sheffield size boats so it's not far out, also you forget you are losing 20% or more in gearbox losses electric motors dont

Those numbers are straight off typical rpm on a narrowboat on a normal canal, wih fuel consumption from Beta Marine. The numbers are energy in, typical gearbox losses for the diesel are about 5%. Typical electric motor losses are also at least 5% (often nearer 10%) so the power numbers are comparable for both.

 

You said (or implied) that 1.5kW from the battery will move a 65 footer at 4mph on a normal canal. It won't...

Edited November 15, 2020 by IanD

[magpie patrick]

It's my topic and you all answered my actual query in the first few posts so I don't feel any shame in taking this 

 

when were we last actually carbon zero? The Somerset Coalfield was producing 100,000 tonnes of coal a year before the end of the 17th Century - to put that in perspective it's about the total the Coal Canal was carrying in it's busier years 200 years later. 

 

I'm not pretending it gets anywhere near existing fossil fuel use/CO2 emmissions, but zero it is not, and the Somerset Coalfield was not the only coalfield on this planet producing coal 400 years ago.  

[Sea Dog]

52 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

It might need the installation of a mooring, with charging mid way so people could do the stretch in two goes

This is going to be needed in sooo many places unless we can make boat charging autonomous somehow, but certainly the cost and work involved in providing such infrastructure is going to be enormous and therefore prohibitive because we're too small a market to make it worthwhile.  Sadly, I think current technology isn't going to support emissions free boating, or at least not as we know it. For our sector, the whether the future is exciting or bleak hinges on whether there's affordable read across from breakthroughs in other transport sectors.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

I'm not pretending it gets anywhere near existing fossil fuel use/CO2 emmissions, but zero it is not, and the Somerset Coalfield was not the only coalfield on this planet producing coal 400 years ago.  

We bought a farm that included the site of the Ffrwd (Frood) Mine and the 'Coal & Ironworks' the Brickworks as well as the Ffrwd canal, the mine was operating from the 1700's to about 1900 and was one of the biggest in Wales at that time.

 

We actually 'struck coal' and had planning permission to remove it - we got over 2000 tonnes out

 

The history of the area was very interesting.