Red is not dead, - yet

[dunfixing]

Well I would like to see a zero emission narrow boat, hydrogen powered , perhaps, LPG , that did work for road vehicles in the seventies.

a boat that could be used all year, not just when the suns out .

[ditchcrawler]

42 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Exactly ?

It's a pity that towed generators are not more powerful and usable on the cut

https://www.renugen.co.uk/eclectic-energy-sail-gen-towed-water-generator/

 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

So it still needs a generator to recharge the batteries and to heat the water. Hardly a diesel free boat then.

Well I did put that on sunny days it wouldnt need the gennie also if they dont move they can heat the water from the immersion run from the sun. Of course if you think 5 hours of ICE engine running produces less emissions than 1 hour of genny running I would like to see how you work that out

[Steilsteven]

22 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It is exactly this practice that the government are trying to prohibit.

No they aren't, it's perfectly OK to have a bulk delivery to a boat as long as it's for domestic use only and you have a dedicated tank.

No different to delivering to a house where you could easily transfer some to your car if you were stupid enough to do so.

 

Keith

[Sea Dog]

18 minutes ago, dunfixing said:

Well I would like to see a zero emission narrow boat, hydrogen powered , perhaps, LPG , that did work for road vehicles in the seventies.

a boat that could be used all year, not just when the suns out .

Well, you can go and see a hydrogen powered narrowboat: it's sat slowly decaying at Edgebaston.  A zero emission LPG one might take a bit more work!

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Exactly my point.

Limited boating in the summer months from solar is easily achieved. Year round boating, with long days on the move, keeping the inside of the boat warm, the domestic water hot, and providing hot meals without burning carbon-based fuel is a virtual impossibility for the foreseeable future.

Then you wont be doing it will you? remember what we do is leisure its not important and has little bearing on the economy, less moving in fact would make the canals cheaper to run

[Steilsteven]

39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

At 5 Knots I'm using 5 litres per hour per engine (total 10 litres per hour)

At 8 knots I'm using 12.7 litres per hour per engine (25 litres per hour)

 

On a previous 'lumpy water' boat, on a 600 mile cruise I averaged 1.57 gallons (7 litres) per Mile 

At 3000 RPM I was using 14 gallons (64 litres per hour)

 

 

Its all relative.

No it isn't all relative, you chose to have a certain type of boat that uses a lot of fuel and that has no bearing on the cost per litre you have paid.

 

Keith

[Sea Dog]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Then you wont be doing it will you? remember what we do is leisure its not important and has little bearing on the economy or the environment, less moving in fact would make the canals cheaper to run

Fixed that for you...

 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

No it isn't all relative, you chose to have a certain type of boat that uses a lot of fuel and that has no bearing on the cost per litre you have paid.

 

Keith

I think you misunderstood 

.

When you said £1 per litre is cheap, and I replied 'its all relative', I was refering to the price relative to (say) a Litre of whiskey, a litre of petrol, a litre of beer, a litre of  ?????????????///

[Steilsteven]

54 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think you misunderstood 

.

When you said £1 per litre is cheap, and I replied 'its all relative', I was refering to the price relative to (say) a Litre of whiskey, a litre of petrol, a litre of beer, a litre of  ?????????????///

I think you must've been having some of that whiskey ?

£1 a litre for propulsion only diesel from a boatyard is cheap/near impossible given that the current average for bulk red is 46 ppl and if you add 58p duty it becomes £1.04 so I am curious as to how you did it.

 

Keith

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

I think you must've been having some of that whiskey ?

£1 a litre for propulsion only diesel from a boatyard is cheap/near impossible given that the current average for bulk red is 46 ppl and if you add 58p duty it becomes £1.04 so I am curious as to how you did it.

 

Keith

Ahhhhh - sorry my misunderstanding.

 

I filled it up a couple of years ago and since then SWMBO (March 2019) has snapped off her ankle (and after having it plated was in a wheelchair for 6 months) so very little boating, and then this year badly broke her wrist (again in March) and is still under the consultant as they 'cocked up' and didn't notice the dislocated fingers which have now 'healed' in the wrong position.

We did get out for a couple of good cruises this Summer and she coped well with her 'hooks' (that used to be fingers), we probably used about 300+ litres.

 

Have 3 tanks on board 1x 1000 litres keel tank and 2x 900 litres 'wing' tanks which gives us a 'safe' range of over 2000 miles without refueling.

[Steilsteven]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ahhhhh - sorry my misunderstanding.

 

I filled it up a couple of years ago and since then SWMBO (March 2019) has snapped off her ankle (and after having it plated was in a wheelchair for 6 months) so very little boating, and then this year badly broke her wrist (again in March) and is still under the consultant as they 'cocked up' and didn't notice the dislocated fingers which have now 'healed' in the wrong position.

We did get out for a couple of good cruises this Summer and she coped well with her 'hooks' (that used to be fingers), we probably used about 300+ litres.

 

Have 3 tanks on board 1x 1000 litres keel tank and 2x 900 litres 'wing' tanks which gives us a 'safe' range of over 2000 miles without refueling.

Oh I see but still a good price even so.

Sorry to hear about your good lady's mishap and subsequent troubles, mine did similar a few years back and broke her upper left arm earlier this year from which she is still recovering.

 

Keith

[Machpoint005]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

a Litre of whiskey

 

Never touch the stuff.

 

A litre of whisky would be an entirely different matter.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Machpoint005
missed a t out

[Momac]

19 hours ago, Steilsteven said:

No they aren't, it's perfectly OK to have a bulk delivery to a boat as long as it's for domestic use only and you have a dedicated tank.

No different to delivering to a house where you could easily transfer some to your car if you were stupid enough to do so.

 

Keith

 I suspect few boats have such a tank? 

[Steilsteven]

On 14/11/2020 at 09:07, MartynG said:

 I suspect few boats have such a tank? 

I suspect that many boats will in future.

 

Keith

[Chewbacka]

15 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

I suspect that many boats will in future.

 

Keith

That will depend upon how easy it is to get red in relatively small quantities.

[magnetman]

One of my boats has two diesel engines in it. They are fed by 5 gallon day tanks. 

 

It also has a pair of 300 litre tanks for the two heating systems.  

 

 I like being really warm and find it easier to buy the propulsion fuel when passing supermarkets or arriving at the boat by car. 

 

Heating fuel is definitely better bought in bulk otherwise it ends up being too expensive. 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by magnetman

[Gardner]

Once a tank has contained red diesel, it will show up on any test for years, despite the tank having contained white only.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Gardner said:

Once a tank has contained red diesel, it will show up on any test for years, despite the tank having contained white only.

Which is why (several pages ago) I suggested keeping all receipts from the cut-off date to prove you have purchased White.

Your 'red' in the tank will get gradually less red and more 'pinker'

 

Whilst it is not common to keep a log on the inland waterways, this could be used to show "engine hours run against white diesel purchase receipts", should keep even the most ardent HMRCE man happy.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Which is why (several pages ago) I suggested keeping all receipts from the cut-off date to prove you have purchased White.

 

 

 

From the consultation document: (my emphasis)

Note the "sufficient evidence" part in 5.21 - that pretty much is diesel receipts!

 

 

Ensuring compliance: red diesel users

 

5.16 While the use of red diesel by users that have lost their entitlement will be illegal from 1 April 2022, the government realises that marker residue may still be detected in the fuel tanks of their vehicles and machinery, even after they have switched to using white diesel.

 

5.17 The government does not propose to mandate that users of red diesel have to flush out the tanks of their vehicles or machinery as this can be expensive. This approach also avoids damage to the environment that could arise from the unsupervised and unsafe disposal of red diesel.

 

 

5.19 Users of vehicles and machinery that will lose their entitlement to use red diesel have until April 2022 to prepare before these changes take effect. The government therefore expects these users to ensure that they do not purchase red diesel for use from 1 April 2022 and run down their existing stocks of red diesel before that date (subject to determining whether any uses of red diesel should be treated differently following a review of the responses provided to Q12 on very infrequent purchases of red diesel).

 

5.20 In cases where HMRC compliance officers find that vehicles and machinery that have lost their entitlement still have some red diesel marker in their fuel supplies, these vehicles and machinery, as well as the fuel, would be liable to be seized. It is HMRC policy to take action if they consider that red diesel is being used illegally and an offence has been committed. However, the user of the vehicle or machinery would be able to appeal the liability if they believe they are still entitled to use red diesel.

 

5.21 The government proposes that HMRC’s compliance officers would, as now, consider the particular circumstances of each case. If users are able to satisfy compliance officers, with sufficient evidence if requested, that the detected red diesel marker relates only to fuel legitimately put into the fuel supply of the vehicle or machinery prior to 1 April 2022 (i.e. that the vehicle or machinery has not been fuelled with red diesel after the law changed), then the government proposes that the vehicle or machinery would be restored to the owner at no cost, subject to conditions that will be set out in published guidance, and other enforcement action would not be taken.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899174/Consultation_on_reforms_to_the_tax_treatment_of_red_diesel_and_other_rebated_fuels.pdf

[magnetman]

18 minutes ago, Gardner said:

Once a tank has contained red diesel, it will show up on any test for years, despite the tank having contained white only.

I would have thought that fuel tests, if ever actually carried out, would be done at the point of fuel entering the combustion chamber. Maybe a little swab of a drip coming from an injector pipe. 

 

That's if someone else is allowed to come on your boat and loosen injector pipes! 

 

It's unlikely that the colouring is the only thing added given how easy it is to remove the colouring !

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

5.21 The government proposes that HMRC’s compliance officers would, as now, consider the particular circumstances of each case. If users are able to satisfy compliance officers, with sufficient evidence if requested, that the detected red diesel marker relates only to fuel legitimately put into the fuel supply of the vehicle or machinery prior to 1 April 2022 (i.e. that the vehicle or machinery has not been fuelled with red diesel after the law changed), then the government proposes that the vehicle or machinery would be restored to the owner at no cost, subject to conditions that will be set out in published guidance, and other enforcement action would not be taken.

This unfortunately is typical of the HMRCE - Guilty until proven innocent.

 

Your car / boat / house is taken away from you and you have to prove that you are not guilty, then they will 'restore' you property to you "at no cost" (how kind !!)

[magnetman]

I wonder how they would get around the problem of removing someone's primary residence. 

 

Obviously this doesn't apply in the vast majority of cases but given that boats are not generally tracked (other than in CRT water) how would it be possible to prove what fuel had been used for what purpose if the boat has diesel air and water heating and/or cooking systems ? 

 

I mean from receipts rather than testing fuel delivery systems on site. 

 

You could just run a diesel powered vehicle and declare the fuel receipts as boat fuel. 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by magnetman

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, magnetman said:

I wonder how they would get around the problem of removing someone's primary residence. 

 

 

Customs have far greater powers that the Police, for example they do not need a search warrant.

[TheBiscuits]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Your car / boat / house is taken away from you and you have to prove that you are not guilty, then they will 'restore' you property to you "at no cost" (how kind !!)

 

Yes, that's how they usually work.  I would suggest keeping your fuel receipts on the boat so you can provide the evidence before they seize it rather than waiting until it's been removed.