Red is not dead, - yet

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I presume that marinas etc will only provide white, so as a sector, we don't really need enforcememt.

Most will give up unless as they don't have buying power of the conglomerates, the stuff will cost them more and they'll sell much less.

As long as there is red diesel some of it will end up in boats, I got mine from notamarina, he sells to contracters etc.

 

Travellers like red, it's cheaper.

Edited November 10, 2020 by LadyG

[Jerra]

Just now, Phil. said:

Because at present they don’t intended to force tanks to be cleaned, so a boater could claim the red was in the tank from a date before it became unlawful to use it. To successfully prosecute you, they would have to prove otherwise, and this would be virtually impossible, unless you were silly enough to admit it during questioning.

#22 and a previous date would only protect you for a while.   I suspect a half decent forensic chemist would be able to work our how much the traces of red had been diluted.

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Most will give up unless as they don't have buying power of the conglomerates, the stuff will cost them more and they'll sell much less.

As long as there is red diesel some of it will end up in boats, I got mine from notamarina, he sells to contracters etc.

 

Travellers like red, it's cheaper.

And what contractors will be using red?

[Momac]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And what contractors will be using red?

None since the construction industry  will  also required to use white diesel.

Edited November 10, 2020 by MartynG

[Momac]

Presumably there will be significantly less red diesel consumed.

Will it not become difficult to buy red diesel unless delivered to a domestic heating tank?  

[smiler]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

 

 

.........Travellers like red, it's cheaper.

Travellers don't mind the colour.

Most don't pay for it anyway.???

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

#22 and a previous date would only protect you for a while.   I suspect a half decent forensic chemist would be able to work our how much the traces of red had been diluted.

I would be surprised if they could, as I would not think there is a standard, which would never have been necessary. 

I think there is a sort of chemical tea straner that removes the dye.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I would be surprised if they could, as I would not think there is a standard, which would never have been necessary. 

I think there is a sort of chemical tea straner that removes the dye.

Dye is 'so yesterday' in addition to the dye it now has chemical bio-markers in it which cannot be removed

 

Red, but not red

To differentiate between the two fuels, red diesel has a dye added turning the fuel red. This allows the authorities — in the UK it is Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) — to detect if the fuel is being used illegally in vehicles on the road. With such a significant saving to be made by using red diesel — the risk of being caught hasn’t been enough to deter many users from breaking the law — the UK government estimates that the cost to the taxpayer is over £80 million per year in lost tax revenues.

With such a lucrative trade, many different methods have been developed to evade detection. One of the most common is to remove the red coloration from the diesel. In the UK, a diazo dye — Solvent Red 19, 24 or 26 — is used to colour the diesel. Fraudsters can remove the colour using an acid or alkali which renders the dye colourless, or by stripping the dye from the diesel using activated carbon.

Roadside GC-MS to the rescue

But the UK government is fighting back and has recently authorised a new roadside test aimed at combatting fuel fraud — and chromatography is the key.

Developed by the chemical company Dow, a chemical — ((3-(sec-butyl)-4-(decyloxy)phenyl)methanetriyl) tribenzene — is added to the diesel as a marker. Once it has been added to the fuel, it is difficult to remove — giving HMRC a better chance of identifying any fraud. The marker is easily detected using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry — but laboratory testing means delays in combatting the fraud.

 But in Northern Ireland, the government has fitted fuel fraud detection units — using portable GC-MS — into 49 vehicles that can be used by HMRC enforcement officers to detect illicit fuel quickly and easily at the roadside. In a press release, a minister stated:

“The new marker and testing equipment are part of the significant investment we have made in HMRC to tackle avoidance, evasion and fraud to make sure all businesses and individuals contribute to the tax revenue that is used to fund vital public services.”

The use of gas chromatography in the fuel sector is discussed in the article, Determination of Biomarkers in Petroleum by Multidimensional Gas Chromatography: Fundamentals, Applications, and Future Perspective on Chromatography Today.

[ditchcrawler]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Dye is 'so yesterday' in addition to the dye it now has chemical bio-markers in it which cannot be removed

 

 

Its just the mugs who buy red thinking its white on the cheep

[Machpoint005]

16 hours ago, smiler said:

Travellers don't mind the colour.

Most don't pay for it anyway.???

 

That is an unsubstantiated allegation. Do you have evidence of widespread malfeasance?

 

15 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Dye is 'so yesterday' in addition to the dye it now has chemical bio-markers in it which cannot be removed

 

I notice that your quote refers to "roadside" testing. Do we honestly think "canalside" can be substituted, given the likely small size of the tax loss? 

[GUMPY]

All HMRC will have to do is test a few high profile marinas catch a few fine them and that will ensure compliance.

A quick raid on marinas on the Solent and in Braunston area will suffice.

[Iain_S]

... and if the chemical marker is added to or changed at the cut off date, evidence of illegal use will be as easily proved as it is at the moment for road vehicles.

[Jon57]

Just now, Iain_S said:

... and if the chemical marker is added to or changed at the cut off date, evidence of illegal use will be as easily proved as it is at the moment for road vehicles.

No doubt the government will have a world leading track and trace system in place.??????

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

... and if the chemical marker is added to or changed at the cut off date, evidence of illegal use will be as easily proved as it is at the moment for road vehicles.

They may already do that for all we know so they can tell where the red comes from, who knows

7 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

No doubt the government will have a world leading track and trace system in place.??????

Remember this involves money that the Government is losing, not just peoples health

[Momac]

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

Do we honestly think "canalside" can be substituted, given the likely small size of the tax loss? 

Why not . It would be an easy win.

[magpie patrick]

23 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

it may even become impossible to buy red without an account.  Time will tell

Several garages round me have red diesel pumps (and a number have paraffin pumps) - I don't think the supply is being driven by the canal boat market, even the most parsimonious boater finding no red diesel at a boatyard in Trowbridge isn't going to drive to some out of the way garage south of Frome to get it

[Phil.]

3 hours ago, Iain_S said:

... and if the chemical marker is added to or changed at the cut off date, evidence of illegal use will be as easily proved as it is at the moment for road vehicles.

This would do it.

[noone]

On 10/11/2020 at 17:55, Loddon said:

At a guess even if I dont fill up again between now and 2022 there will be over 100 litres of red in my tank, do I pour it away?

If we get another year like this one it will be 300litres plus

 

Don't pour it away!?.....Give me a call...I'll dispose of it for free for you..??

[jonathanA]

The local garage near me sells red either from the pump or in  20l barrels. They will not sell it for inland waterway use. They're happy to sell it to me for my tractor, generator or 'plant' ....

 

I currently get most of my boat red from the local fuel boat, just hope these changes dont make it unviable  for fuel boats to operate ..

[Momac]

Just now, jonathanA said:

 

I currently get most of my boat red from the local fuel boat, just hope these changes dont make it unviable  for fuel boats to operate ..

That depends whether boat owners are willing and prepared to use white diesel at a price  per litre that will exceed supermarket diesel prices.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

37 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Several garages round me have red diesel pumps (and a number have paraffin pumps) - I don't think the supply is being driven by the canal boat market, even the most parsimonious boater finding no red diesel at a boatyard in Trowbridge isn't going to drive to some out of the way garage south of Frome to get it

But will they still have these pumps, who will their customers be, there cant be that many farmers who buy red at a garage

[magpie patrick]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But will they still have these pumps, who will their customers be, there cant be that many farmers who buy red at a garage

I dunno - I just know it's not boaters now, not unless they got very lost and entered a parallel universe where the Dorset and Somerset was actually built!

 

Not sure who goes to a pump for paraffin either!

 

If pressed, I suspect there is a significant market for small amounts of red diesel (and obviously paraffin) - it isn't just farmers who live in the wilds and have stationary generators, there are many rural dwellings round here that have, say, an acre of land and some outbuildings and make use of diesel power for pumps, generators and the like. 

 

Do paraffin engines exist? 

[Sea Dog]

4 hours ago, Iain_S said:

... and if the chemical marker is added to or changed at the cut off date, evidence of illegal use will be as easily proved as it is at the moment for road vehicles.

I'm not sure it will. I rarely let my diesel tank go below 70%, and never, ever run it to anything close to empty.  It will be a very long time indeed after changing to white that there'd be no trace of red in my tank, and I doubt I'm in a minority. I think it would take a complete tank drain and very thorough tank clean to remove any trace.

[OldGoat]

11 minutes ago, MartynG said:

That depends whether boat owners are willing and prepared to use white diesel at a price  per litre that will exceed supermarket diesel prices.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ferzackerly (sp?)  - and it WILL be because the oli industry is all about VOLUME - your / my piffling load of 1,2,300 l of fuel isn't going to make any real difference to the price that the canal side vendor can offer.

I'm content (well not really) to pay an uplift over the supermarket price, but not what te canalside seller has to charge.

 

[ditchcrawler]

13 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

I dunno - I just know it's not boaters now, not unless they got very lost and entered a parallel universe where the Dorset and Somerset was actually built!

 

Not sure who goes to a pump for paraffin either!

 

If pressed, I suspect there is a significant market for small amounts of red diesel (and obviously paraffin) - it isn't just farmers who live in the wilds and have stationary generators, there are many rural dwellings round here that have, say, an acre of land and some outbuildings and make use of diesel power for pumps, generators and the like. 

 

Do paraffin engines exist? 

Tractor vaporising oil (TVO) is a fuel for petrol-paraffin engines. In the United Kingdom and ... The post war Ferguson TE20 tractor, a carefully researched and near-ideal tractor for use on British farms, was designed around a petrol (gasoline

Tractor vaporising oil - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Tractor_vaporising_oil

‎History · ‎Octane rating · ‎Engine modifications · ‎Vaporiser