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Timx

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1 hour ago, Timx said:

Thanks, looking at getting the2000 kipor now, gennerator stored one side of bow locker, with drain hole, and petrol other side with drain hole, 

Most NB with a well deck & front lockers have holes at deck level in the locker side, those could allow petrol fumes into the boat. That is unless you are talking about what i suppose is the forepeak but those often contain the gas bottles and the BSS examiner might take a din view of storing other unsecured equipment with gas bottles.

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5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Most NB with a well deck & front lockers have holes at deck level in the locker side, those could allow petrol fumes into the boat. That is unless you are talking about what i suppose is the forepeak but those often contain the gas bottles and the BSS examiner might take a din view of storing other unsecured equipment with gas bottles.

No where else to store them, drain holes are both sides of well deck lockers , designed to let water out, but as far as I can see, fumes would have to rise to get through front door vents. Surely they would vent down and out first.

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14 hours ago, Timx said:

Thanks, looking at getting the2000 kipor now, gennerator stored one side of bow locker, with drain hole, and petrol other side with drain hole, 

I'm not sure about the kipor but the honda will let petrol flow out if tipped up on end, it comes out of what i assume is a breather/overflow attached to the carburetta, so it would be good practice to allow the genny to use up all fuel (and cool down) before stowing.

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8 hours ago, Timx said:

No where else to store them, drain holes are both sides of well deck lockers , designed to let water out, but as far as I can see, fumes would have to rise to get through front door vents. Surely they would vent down and out first.

Petrol vapour in the well deck lockers will indeed flow out of the outer drain hole but will flow into the well deck itself as well. It will build up there until it reaches the level of the door step then flow in the boat. If the well deck is warmer than the locker ( very likely) then the gas in the well deck will expand allowing to get into the boat quicker. Gas does not escape out of the drain holes nearly as fast as water does. Do not assume it drains like water.

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15 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Petrol vapour in the well deck lockers will indeed flow out of the outer drain hole but will flow into the well deck itself as well. It will build up there until it reaches the level of the door step then flow in the boat. If the well deck is warmer than the locker ( very likely) then the gas in the well deck will expand allowing to get into the boat quicker. Gas does not escape out of the drain holes nearly as fast as water does. Do not assume it drains like water.

This is true, however I think there is a certain amount of hysteria and catastrophisation on this subject. I would certainly warn against refuelling on the boat (petrol vapour) or running on the boat (CO), but once switched off, the generator can have its tank vent closed (knob on the filler) and thereafter no significant fuel vapour escapes, certainly not at a rate likely to overflow the door step. When not in use I keep my Kipor inside the caravan and when I turn up days or weeks later, there is no hint of petrol vapour smell.

 

We walked past a “shiny boat” moored at Gt Haywood the other day, genny running on cruiser deck, cruiser deck enveloped in a pram hood. There wasn’t even a flap open, although the back doors were closed and of course the pram hood doesn’t make a great seal.

 

I nearly knocked on the boat to tell them how stupid they were but in the event decided not to as if one is stupid enough to run a genny under cover on  back deck, one is likely to be too stupid to heed any advice from an “interfering passer-by”.

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2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

This is true, however I think there is a certain amount of hysteria and catastrophisation on this subject. I would certainly warn against refuelling on the boat (petrol vapour).....etc

I would agree that there are not many 'explosions' on canal boats so your word 'hysteria' may be understood by many on here. Look however at sailing yachts were almost every yacht (that sails) has a tender with a petrol outboard. There have been lots and lots of instances - although very much fewer these days - of explosions due to poor storage of petrol. Plastic cans can split. Plastic hoses can split. They are not likely to - but IF they do then watch out!

I dont like people using the term 'petrol vapour'. The vapour word sort of suggests its droplets of fuel that can settle out. It isnt. The gas that is emitted is predominantly butane (at UK temperatures). Butane is a gas that is dissolved in the gasoline and which evaporates easily. That butane mixes with air and settles. Once it gets over the door sill it settles into the bilge -still as a gas and is highly inflammable. It doesnt go away. It builds up over days, weeks and months.

......and for those of us that say "ah, its winter, the butane is less likely to evaporate". Don't bank on it. In the summer, most gasoline sold in the UK contains about 6-8% butane. In the winter, when they switch to winter grade, some refineries put as much butane in the gasoline as they can and one particular refinery in Scotland normally can get up to 14% butane in without  breaching the RVP limit. In winter, there is a lot more butane in the petrol you are using.

I would not store petrol in a place where there is a route for the gas to get into the boat.

Edited by Dr Bob
wrong word used
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58 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I would agree that there are not many 'explosions' on canal boats so your word 'hysteria' may be understood by many on here. Look however at sailing yachts were almost every yacht (that sails) has a tender with a petrol outboard. There have been lots and lots of instances - although very much fewer these days - of explosions due to poor storage of petrol. Plastic cans can split. Plastic hoses can split. They are not likely to - but IF they do then watch out!

I dont like people using the term 'petrol vapour'. The vapour word sort of suggests its droplets of fuel that can settle out. It is isnt. The gas that is emitted is predominantly butane (at UK temperatures). Butane is a gas that is dissolved in the gasoline and which evaporates easily. That butane mixes with air and settles. Once it gets over the door sill it settles into the bilge -still as a gas and is highly inflammable. It doesnt go away. It builds up over days, weeks and months.

......and for those of us that say "ah, its winter, the butane is less likely to evaporate". Don't bank on it. In the summer, most gasoline sold in the UK contains about 6-8% butane. In the winter, when they switch to winter grade, some refineries put as much butane in the gasoline as they can and one particular refinery in Scotland normally can get up to 14% butane in without  breaching the RVP limit. In winter, there is a lot more butane in the petrol you are using.

I would not store petrol in a place where there is a route for the gas to get into the boat.

You are the scientist but surely the term “vapour” refers to something in its gaseous phase, not something with droplets of liquid (aerosol)? Vapour pressure and all that.

Oh and make your mind up!

 

And surely if one uses proper containers, the sort my sister has left in the boot of her car for decades (and you should see how she drives!) then the probability of suddenly splitting is vanishingly small and even if does, you know it’s happened and can take appropriate steps. I suggest that dangerous situations are cause by unnoticed issues such as slow leaks, not spilling 5 litres of petrol onto the welldeck.

Edited by nicknorman
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On 10/11/2020 at 08:41, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd suggest getting something like a Kipor 2000 (which misleadingly is rated at 1600w continuous - I did say to check continuous ratings)

I picked mine up as 'almost new' for £300 you'd pay twice that for a used Honda 2000i (1600 watts) and over £1000 for a new one. The Honda is slightly quieter 'on paper' but not really noticable 'to the ear' at equivalent revs.

 

It's about the same weight as a toilet cassette or bag of coal (it weighs 22kg) and would easily power your Victron if you dial it back to 60 or 70 amps.

If you have the generator running at max RPM it is not only a bit noisy, making the genny work hard but uses a lot of fuel. It will be far happier running at around 75% powering your battery charger at 60-70a.

 

Very easy to lift off the boat, very easy to start and uses about 1 litre of petrol per hour at 1600w output.

 

 

Wouldn't be without it !

Could you send me a link to that, as I’m just confusing myself with models .

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15 minutes ago, Timx said:

Could you send me a link to that, as I’m just confusing myself with models .

 

https://www.outdoorbits.com/kipor-ig2000-generator-p-931.html

 

This is the same as mine.

 

 

Edit

The details seem to refer to a 1.0KVa generator but the titele says IG2000

 

This is the Kipor website and the price is the same as the outdoor bits website

Not available from Kipor.

 

Maybe give Outdoor bits a call and ask for confirmation that it is a 2Kva ?

 

https://www.kiporuk.co.uk/digital-generator/ig2000p-kipor-digital-generator-389-54-75.php

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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If you go to the Kipor website, you'll see that they seem to have been rebranded as Spark.  This also explains why Midland Chandlers used to stock Kipor and now stock only Spark, although other places are still carrying older Kipor branded stock.  It seems they're the same thing, except the Spark versions have been updated (USB input?)

 

Now last year Midland Chandlers did a Black Friday offer of 15% of everything.  Might be worth waiting for that.

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38 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

If I was the OP I'd pay the extra and get the 2600w version.  Then his monster charger will get to work at it's fullest.

On the flip side, 29.5kg v 22kg.

Personally, I find the 2000 model quite heavy enough.

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12 minutes ago, gbclive said:

On the flip side, 29.5kg v 22kg.

Personally, I find the 2000 model quite heavy enough.

 

That is 'dry weight', add another 3 or 4 kgs for fuel and oil & at 73lbs it suddenly becomes unmanageable for 'older folks'.

I agree the 2000 version is 'heavy enough'

 

A full 15kg gas cylinder weighs around 30kg

A 13kg cylinder comes in at around 25-26kg

 

and they are not the easiset thing to lift on and off the boat.

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11 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Presumably.  If I was the OP I'd pay the extra and get the 2600w version.  Then his monster charger will get to work at it's fullest.

Hi, thanks for that, but can I ask why? I have been cc’ing for four years, I have never wanted a generator or needed one, I pull into a marina once a week to charge up then go. I am now not allowed to do that regime’ actually because of an emergency stoppage right now, and going forwards, I could get stuck with marinas not letting you in. I don’t want a ‘monster charger,’ why be unfriendly, I have asked for help through my lack of experience on generators.if I have misread you , I apologise, but I will buy the version you specify, so thanks for that.

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11 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Presumably.  If I was the OP I'd pay the extra and get the 2600w version.  Then his monster charger will get to work at it's fullest.

In real life, The Honda EU20i at 21kg was heavy and a real faff, so I would be recommending not to go for the bigger unit. The charger would be fine at 75% or 50% as against not being able to lift the genny.

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10 hours ago, Timx said:

Hi, thanks for that, but can I ask why? I have been cc’ing for four years, I have never wanted a generator or needed one, I pull into a marina once a week to charge up then go. I am now not allowed to do that regime’ actually because of an emergency stoppage right now, and going forwards, I could get stuck with marinas not letting you in. I don’t want a ‘monster charger,’ why be unfriendly, I have asked for help through my lack of experience on generators.if I have misread you , I apologise, but I will buy the version you specify, so thanks for that.

You already have a monster charger.  It's 120 amp.  A 2000w genny won't be able to charge at that rate, but the bigger genny will.  That means that your batteries will charge quicker, which has various advantages:  You'll save money in fuel.  You won't need to run your genny for as long so wear and tear will be less.  You'll create less of a noise nuisance, which is nice for you and nearby boats.

 

The downsides of the bigger genny is that it costs more upfront, and is heavier.  The choice is yours.

 

I think you misunderstood what I mean't by 'monster'. My charger is 40 amp.  I'd love to have the benefits of a 120 amp charger, like you have.

10 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

In real life, The Honda EU20i at 21kg was heavy and a real faff, so I would be recommending not to go for the bigger unit. The charger would be fine at 75% or 50% as against not being able to lift the genny.

A 21kg genny is lighter than a bag of coal, with the added benefit of having a handy handle to pick it up with.  I keep my coal on the roof too, which makes it far more of a faff than a genny.

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4 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

You already have a monster charger.  It's 120 amp.  A 2000w genny won't be able to charge at that rate, but the bigger genny will.  That means that your batteries will charge quicker, which has various advantages:  You'll save money in fuel.  You won't need to run your genny for as long so wear and tear will be less.  You'll create less of a noise nuisance, which is nice for you and nearby boats.

 

The downsides of the bigger genny is that it costs more upfront, and is heavier.  The choice is yours.

 

I think you misunderstood what I mean't by 'monster'. My charger is 40 amp.  I'd love to have the benefits of a 120 amp charger, like you have.

A 21kg genny is lighter than a bag of coal, with the added benefit of having a handy handle to pick it up with.  I keep my coal on the roof too, which makes it far more of a faff than a genny.

I would be interested to hear the real time saving of say a 120A charger compared to a 50A charger when charging Lead acid batteries.  Unless you have a very large battery bank I cannot see it charging at more than 50A for very long, and the long tail to get the batteries from taking a current of say 40A to less than 5A will be the same for both chargers.

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Just now, Chewbacka said:

I would be interested to hear the real time saving of say a 120A charger compared to a 50A charger when charging Lead acid batteries.  Unless you have a very large battery bank I cannot see it charging at more than 50A for very long, and the long tail to get the batteries from taking a current of say 40A to less than 5A will be the same for both chargers.

Then what's the point of having a big charger or big alternator?  Why would anyone pay for such a thing?  I suppose it's that, IRL we don't always charge to 100%.  That 120a charger might take take a battery bank to 80-90% in an hour (depending on bank size and how flat they are), but a 40a charger like mine, would take 3 hours to reach the same point.  That sounds like a good reason to me.

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3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Then what's the point of having a big charger or big alternator?  Why would anyone pay for such a thing?  I suppose it's that, IRL we don't always charge to 100%.  That 120a charger might take take a battery bank to 80-90% in an hour (depending on bank size and how flat they are), but a 40a charger like mine, would take 3 hours to reach the same point.  That sounds like a good reason to me.

The point of a big alternator is more to do with powering a big inverter (eg running a washing machine with heater) without hammering the batteries.  As to massive chargers, I wonder if they sell them (at a premium price) because people happy to buy them.

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