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2 minutes ago, Pluto said:

I visited the Eider Dam as the only foreigner amongst about thirty German senior managers and engineers. The description of the raid was very good, and included the fact that around the same number of allied airmen and German civilians were killed on the raid. Most Germans seem to have a more balanced view of the effects of the war than some in this country, who need to read Sassoon's 'Reconciliation'. https://www.bartleby.com/137/2.html

Some years ago in the 1970's, I worked  with a Managing Director who had been one of the Dambuster Pilots  - David Shannon DSO & Bar, DSC & Bar. It was a great privilege and I am proud to have known such a  brave man who carried on flying with 617 squadron for most of the remainder of the war. 

 

Howard

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I expect there will a service broadcast on the 11th.  I'm not sure if there is a war memorial in the village, but I will be making a small effort to remember them on the day and at the time.

Will watch the Albert Hall as well, all so sad.

Edited by LadyG
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18 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

I disagree. Today, "of all days", we should be reflecting upon the futility of war and the sacrifices made (often involuntarily) by those who die in all conflicts, whether they wear a uniform or not, and whether they end up on the winning side or not.

 

That was my point.

Indeed.

 

But part of the challenge, especially for those leading Remembrance Services, is holding both view in creative tension, as it were. Both are valid views and, in some way, perhaps all of us need to accept at least a little bit of both however much of us is in one camp or the other.

 

I did, however, cringe a little at the Songs of Praise reference to the Anglo-Zulu War, especially in a time when the slavery period of our history is under such scrutiny. Viewing the past through the lens of our time is always fraught with complications. But it must be done. Perhaps the best route is to criticise the policies rather than the individuals who often acted as they saw best in the context of their own times. We always should bear in mind that our own actions will no doubt receive a similar critique by a future generation, however well meaning we think we are now.

Edited by Mike Todd
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18 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

I disagree. Today, "of all days", we should be reflecting upon the futility of war and the sacrifices made (often involuntarily) by those who die in all conflicts, whether they wear a uniform or not, and whether they end up on the winning side or not.

 

That was my point.

I agree 100%.

 

The reality of the futility in war and all armed conflicts is felt most when we see all those effected by them not just those of our own clan or the "winning" side. 

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And what about the multi millions of quid of our tax payers money chucked away on more recent futile wars like Iraq and the Falklands war. Very likely cost a lot more than what Covc19 is costing us. Not forgetting all the poor lives lost, especially all the innocent civillian lives. Terrible, Blair, Bush ect have a lot to answer for. Look at the old alcohol US prohibition period, They shoiuld have prohibited all their silly guns too and melted them all down to make decent railway viaducts instead of wooden ones.

Edited by bizzard
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Pluto has said-

 

I visited the Eider Dam as the only foreigner amongst about thirty German senior managers and engineers. The description of the raid was very good, and included the fact that around the same number of allied airmen and German civilians were killed on the raid. Most Germans seem to have a more balanced view of the effects of the war than some in this country, who need to read Sassoon's 'Reconciliation'

 

This is what yesterday was about- remembering the sacrifice of those that took part. Most were caught up in the conflict. It is all about remembering them, not the rights or wrongs of that war, or  of other wars. Most from my generation have memories of life after the second world war and in my case being told by my parents and my grandmother what it was like. For my late (english) grandmother she worked at Kynoch's, Witton, during the first World War and had memories of both conflicts. For my late father, he would rarely talk about the war. He had lost a brother in a tank battle in the North African desert. My mother had a different perspective and would talk about the horrors of war. She was fortunate to survive the war. Being German, she would recount the news broadcasts about the Dam bombings and the sad loss of life (as Pluto referred to), She was lucky to survive the war as Russians shelled her home village, one shell passed overhead, she was carried to safety by a gaggle of geese! Then there was the treck she and her sister made travelling across Germany from her home in Silesia to Delmenhorst, where her family settled. It was there after the war had ended that she met my father. One of her brothers had been captured and was a prisoner of war. He stayed in Britain and married an englishwoman.  Again his views of the war was often of the horrors, not the rights or wrongs.

 

So yesterday was about remembering sacrifice and endurance, for me. And I did that quietly.

  

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Pleased to see that they had 6 members of the merchant navy there but don’t know where they found them. In the 2 nd ww there were over 30000 seamen killed. Apart from a very few the relatives have nowhere physical to remember them and no wall of names.

The service itself was very well done under the circumstances and the marines band always brings tears for my younger brother a bandsman who drowned off Dartmouth.

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7 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

The German war cemetries in northern France are worth a visit.

 

The huge difference in how they are presented compared to how the US and British ones are is quite stark, particularly the US ones.

 

Very sombre and 'dark'.

It's worth seeing the war cemeteries in the Wicklow hills behind Dublin. I saw them as a child and was very moved.

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My mum's dad was blown to pieces in an ambulance in North Africa. There was nothing left of him to bury, but apparently his name is on a memorial. I'd like to visit it one day.

 

My dad's dad is buried in a small cemetery at Cheux, just outside Caan. We've visited it a couple of times, an incredibly moving experience. There are German graves as well as British, all treated with equal care and respect.

 

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

 

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