Strettonman Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 My calorifier is in the engine bay and I’m considering how to add additional lagging. I’ve seen posts about adding jackets and wrapping in celotex sheets but was also considering creating some sort of cylindrical frame and using expanding insulation foam and wrapping the cylinder in aluminium foil. The foil would not only reflect back the heat but also enable me to get the foam off the cylinder if it all goes horribly wrong ?. any ideas on which gives the best insulation per inch of thickness as space is at a premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dor Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 My calorifer is on the semi-trad swim. Despite being well insulated I liberally applied expanding foam, especially between the calorifer and the hull side. Easy to trim off excess after. Made a very noticeable difference to temperature in the morning after cruising the day before. Well worth doing for a few quid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen-in-Wellies Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 (edited) There is a trade off when insulating something round, like a cauliflower. As the insulation thickness goes up, so does the external surface area, which increases convection heat losses from the surface. If the insulation contacts the hull, particularly below the water line, then the losses increase considerably through conduction to the cold water. There is going to be a sweet spot of insulation thickness, though what it is is difficult to say, without some complicated sums and perhaps some experimentation. It isn't as simple as more thickness = better. On the first calorifier on my boat I added a domestic glass fibre cylinder blanket to the foam insulation it came with. Can't say if it made any noticeable difference and when the cauliflower was replaced I didn't bother and just went with the supplied foam coating. Jen Edited November 4, 2020 by Jen-in-Wellies 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy D'arth Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 Wrap it very loosely in bubble wrap, then inject foam inside the wrap. Bear in mind that the foam expands about 40 times the can volume as it cures, so a 1 litre can goes a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 I suspect there is more benefit in insulating all the pipe connections. I have seen systems where the calorifier and the pipes are insulated, but the brass fittings connecting them are open to the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machpoint005 Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 The OP doesn't say whether there is a stopcock on the hot water inlet to the caulifower. If there isn't, the engine heats the cauliflower when it's running, then the cauliflower keeps the engine warm when it is switched off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 51 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said: The OP doesn't say whether there is a stopcock on the hot water inlet to the caulifower. If there isn't, the engine heats the cauliflower when it's running, then the cauliflower keeps the engine warm when it is switched off. Point taken but that is by no means certain. careful pipe runs can prevent it as can a flap valve in the upper calorifier coil pipe/hose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machpoint005 Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 Fairy Nuff, but I can tell the difference next morning when I forget to close the valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 15 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said: Fairy Nuff, but I can tell the difference next morning when I forget to close the valve. So fit a flap type NRV and you won't forget to close the valve - just get it the right way round or else no hot water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dor Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 4 hours ago, Machpoint005 said: The OP doesn't say whether there is a stopcock on the hot water inlet to the caulifower. If there isn't, the engine heats the cauliflower when it's running, then the cauliflower keeps the engine warm when it is switched off. This is usually a problem on boats with horizontal calorifier mounted on the floor, I.e. lower than the engine. I’ve also had it with a vertical calorifier mounted close to the engine. Fixed with a flap valve. My current boat with horizontal calorifier on the swim is fine, as it is higher relative to the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 Our calorifier is beneath the cross bed in the back of the boat. For additional insulation I wrapped it in this: https://www.screwfix.com/p/duralay-premier-wood-laminate-flooring-underlay-3mm-10m/48485 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strettonman Posted November 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 This is great stuff all - thanks. Sorry for a late response - a common boating problem (or joy?) - lack of signal. I’ve routed the pipes to the engine that seem to prevent siphoning and I’ve also got a manual valve to shut it off if need be. While I want to maintain heat over night my main concern is freezing in the winter. We live aboard part time normally 3 days most weeks so my main concern is to minimise the risk of damage between visits and not have to drain down the system every time I think there is going to be a cold spell. obviously if the forecast is sub zero for weeks I might have to drain down but want to avoid this as much as possible. The bubble wrap and foam idea sounds interesting. As space is at a premium have you any idea how efficient this is compared with just foam for say a 2” covering. I think maybe a final wrap of foil backed matting might also be on the cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dor Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Strettonman said: We live aboard part time normally 3 days most weeks so my main concern is to minimise the risk of damage between visits and not have to drain down the system every time I think there is going to be a cold spell. The most important things to do is for short term is to shut off the stopcock from the water tank and to open all the taps and leave them open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machpoint005 Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, Tony Brooks said: So fit a flap type NRV and you won't forget to close the valve - just get it the right way round or else no hot water. I don't forget. Once was enough. 19 hours ago, dor said: This is usually a problem on boats with horizontal calorifier mounted on the floor, I.e. lower than the engine. I’ve also had it with a vertical calorifier mounted close to the engine. Fixed with a flap valve. My current boat with horizontal calorifier on the swim is fine, as it is higher relative to the engine. Hmm - vertical cauliflower, in my case. 2 hours ago, Strettonman said: obviously if the forecast is sub zero for weeks I might have to drain down but want to avoid this as much as possible. If it isn't the forecast, you will be all right. It is very unusual for the temperature inside the boat to drop below 0° for long enough to freeze a tank. Just do as Dor suggests: shut off the main stopcock and leave all the taps open (then switch off the water pump). Edited November 5, 2020 by Machpoint005 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strettonman Posted November 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 The calorifier is in the engine bay of a cruiser deck so I little exposed. I am in the middle of rethinking the layout and may put the kitchen at the back so could quite easily move the calorifier inside but I suspect this might end up being next spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strettonman Posted November 14, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2020 Not sure anyone is really interested but here is my attempt so far. I lined the foam covered calorifier with tin foil and then built up 2 sections of slight loose bubble wrap and injected fire retardant foam to create about a 1” layer. Once (sort of) set I put on 3 sections of very loose bubble wrap to create a second layer another couple of inches thick. I’d ordered 1m wide bubble wrap but it was out of stock so they gave me several 30cm wide rolls. This was actually better for getting the foam in. the only problem is it is taking days for the foam to set as the air can’t get to it. next step will be cover it with foil backed laminate underlay and then sort the plumbing end and lag the inlet and outlet pipes. I’ll certainly be shutting off and opening taps as a matter of routine over the winter and may even do a partial drain down if i need to leave it when it is really cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dog Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 21 hours ago, Strettonman said: Not sure anyone is really interested but here is my attempt so far. Oh I don't know - we've followed some of@bizzard 's unusual Meccano building projects for years... Idle curiosity is a wonderful hobby! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetzi Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 (edited) On 04/11/2020 at 09:53, Jen-in-Wellies said: There is a trade off when insulating something round, like a cauliflower. As the insulation thickness goes up, so does the external surface area, which increases convection heat losses from the surface. If the insulation contacts the hull, particularly below the water line, then the losses increase considerably through conduction to the cold water. There is going to be a sweet spot of insulation thickness, though what it is is difficult to say, without some complicated sums and perhaps some experimentation. It isn't as simple as more thickness = better. I've read this a few times and can't get my brain to accept the physics of this. Would like to be convinced if this is true! Regarding contact with the hull, I completely accept the utility of an air gap to reduce conductive losses. But instinctively I feel like increasing the thickness (up to say an inch or two air gap between cauli and hull) has to be beneficial. Whether or not the thing you are insulating is round, you're increasing the surface area of the object. So this should apply equally to any kind of insulation where the thing you're insulating remains the same volume, right? And because when an object gets bigger, volume increases much more rapidly than surface area, you get much more insulation volume for your surface area. If you increase the thickness, you aren't increasing the surface area of the cauliflower. You're increasing the surface area of the insulation. So you're insulating a mildly warm foam surface, keeping it slightly warmer and reducing the temperature differential between the cauliflower and its insulation. I'm installing a new cauliflower in the engine bay under my cruiser deck soon and had been planning on filling every available space with insulation... so would love to be corrected if I'm wrong! Edited April 11, 2021 by jetzi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 Remember the law of diminishing returns. You only need to keep the water warm overnight. I am sure you would improve the insulation to a degree but suspect it would cost more than its worth. Also do a search on the net for instances of rust beneath spray on foam, not something would want to encourage on the hull. To maximise any benefit you would need to insulate all the pipes as well plus ensuring the coolant can't back thermo-syphon through the engine when the engine is not running. I think that is the way most heat is lost from calorifiers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetzi Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 Yeah, I accept the diminishing returns. But I can't see how more insulation can be potentially less effective that less insulation. A second coat will always keep you warmer than only one coat, even if it does increase your surface area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Featured Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now