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C-19 long term effect on canal life


Mick in Bangkok

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With full retirement ever getting closer, 12-18 months  away, and planning to return to UK and CC on the canals I am wondering if there is any anticipated long term effect that C-19 may have either to the rules of constant cruising, the number of people either moving on to or off of the canals or the numbers and sales price of boats that may become available.

 

Would there be any difference to the socializing at locks etc. or any other likely changes?

 

Cheers Mick

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2 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

That’s a very interesting question....................

I don't think it is possible to predict the future of the cruising boater,  but I'll respond anyways:  boaters tend to be isolated from mainstream society,they are not going to do much clubbing, drinking themselves senseless, kissing and hugging or dancing in the streets. Individual boaters I have met on the cut are not careless or reckless, but they tend to live fairly quietly anyway.

I do not know why folks are currently buying narrowboats or making other investments / large capital expediture in the face of major recession, it may be that the realise that 'there are no pockets in shrouds', a sort of 'live for the moment', it may be 'jumping on a bandwagon', seeing boat prices rising  always has some positive effect, and vice versa.

A lot of people may decide not to fly on package type holidays, so may book a canal boat instead, this would help to keep hire companies in business, but I think we will see quite a few 'phoenix' companies, ie bankcrupt companies, assets sold on to new companies', effectively the same number of hire boats as there are at the moment. It would be a brave person who set up a new hire company with all brand new boats at this time.

Boaters I have met have been helpful as one would expect, those who are vulnerable being particularly careful as the disease takes hold locally and nationally. Long term, it won't alter behaviour once the disease has gone.

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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3 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

Would there be any difference to the socializing at locks etc. or any other likely changes?

Not for me,  I don't socialise at locks just as I don't socialise in the supermarket.

A brief acknowledgment and that's it unless its someone I know.

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1 minute ago, LadyG said:

 Long term, it won't alter behaviour once the disease has gone.

 

 

But it may well alter CaRT's behaviour in the pandemic has cost the government so much it indulges in another round of austerity and either cuts the CaRT grant or refuse to renew it. I can't see the maintenance getting any better and I cans ee it getting worse.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But it may well alter CaRT's behaviour in the pandemic has cost the government so much it indulges in another round of austerity and either cuts the CaRT grant or refuse to renew it. I can't see the maintenance getting any better and I cans ee it getting worse.

There is always Lottey Funding, a source of many million if approached professionally, and after all, what could be better than funding a wellbeing charity, lots of tarmacked towpaths, volunteer litter pickers (who are not cost free), maintenance of the listed architecture and artefacts, I can envisage many income streams from unexplored avenues.  The downside is that the people with the knowledge of charity funding and the rest tend to command premium salaries or charge megabucks for 'feasability studies'. Altruism is no longer with us, it died with Thatcherism.

The problem is, as I see it (from a working life from 1960 to 2010), young folks are bought up to believe money grows on trees, and better than that, those trees were planted by the post war generations, so effectively it's a free autumn harvest.

 

Reading @Tony Brooks bon mot again, I wonder what part of CRT's lockdown behaviour could have caused upset in government circles, I thought they were following government advice, why should they not comply with their paymaster's demands?

 

A bit of blue sky thinking is needed by CRT, (not something they are noted for): for example the apprentiship scheme could be used to recruit and train skills, transferrable skills, bringing back the tradesmen of old to supervise and teach the youngsters. All over the country there are small local funds which are lying unused, and which can be ued to support individuals who wish to swerve the dreaded sixth form to Uni route, so beloved of those who want to avoid working for a living as long as possible.

Edited by LadyG
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10 minutes ago, Athy said:

If they are volunteers, how come they are not cost free?

They need to be supervised, insured, provided with PPI, transport, litter bags, littter pickers gadgets, even boats, disposal facilities, administration, the only cost free part is their own labour, and their own transport to get to venues, most charities will provide transport costs if asked.

 

Edited by LadyG
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17 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Reading @Tony Brooks bon mot again, I wonder what part of CRT's lockdown behaviour could have caused upset in government circles, I thought they were following government advice, why should they not comply with their paymaster's demands?

 

 

OK, the word in was meant to be if so:

 

But it may well alter CaRT's behaviour if the pandemic has cost the government so much it indulges in another round of austerity

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7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

OK, the word in was meant to be if so:

 

But it may well alter CaRT's behaviour if the pandemic has cost the government so much it indulges in another round of austerity

Oh, right, I thought you might have heard some chinese whispers, and have some knowledge of which we were unaware. I think the whole 'business model' for CRT funding has always been seriously flawed, not that I have thought up any other, it seems to me that the government 'want' the canals, with it's recreational facility without paying for it. We all want something for nothing, but it never seems to work out that way. ?

Edited by LadyG
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54 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But it may well alter CaRT's behaviour in the pandemic has cost the government so much it indulges in another round of austerity and either cuts the CaRT grant or refuse to renew it. I can't see the maintenance getting any better and I cans ee it getting worse.

The C&RT DEFRA grant is up for review in the financial year 2021/22 for compliance with the agreed targets.

The Grant finishes in 2026.

 

They don't have long to find replacement sources for £50 million pa, and, so far, in the first 8 years have failed abysmally and are way of target.

 

 

6.3 Conditions Precedent to Part A Core Grant

The parties agree that no conditions precedent shall apply to the Part A Core Grant, except:

6.3.1 for those set out in Clause 6.2;

6.3.2 that CRT shall deliver evidence to Defra on or before 1 July 2013 and 1 July 2014, in a form that provides reasonable and proportionate assurance, that the Relevant Standards have been met, as a condition precedent to the receipt of the First Part B Tranche in the financial years 2013/14 and 2014/15; and

6.3.3 if applicable, that CRT shall deliver evidence to Defra on or before 1 July in the financial years 2022/23 to 2026/27 inclusive, in a form that provides reasonable and proportionate assurance, that the Relevant Standards have been met, as a condition precedent to the receipt of the Second Part B Tranche.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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34 minutes ago, LadyG said:

There is always Lottey Funding, a source of many million if approached professionally,

C&RT are already receiving 'many millions' from the lottery.

 

2019/20 they received £500k+ from the national Lottery and £3m from the Post Code Lottery.

 

In addition to £2.4m from the Highways Agency and others "to enhance the environment around Titford pools, improve biodiversity and prevent damage from M5 'run-off'"

 

(Good job they did)

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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The C&RT DEFRA grant is up for review in the financial year 2021/22 for compliance with the agreed targets.

The Grant finishes in 2026.

 

They don't have long to find replacement sources for £50 million pa, and, so far, in the first 8 years have failed abysmally and are way of target.

 

 

6.3 Conditions Precedent to Part A Core Grant

The parties agree that no conditions precedent shall apply to the Part A Core Grant, except:

6.3.1 for those set out in Clause 6.2;

6.3.2 that CRT shall deliver evidence to Defra on or before 1 July 2013 and 1 July 2014, in a form that provides reasonable and proportionate assurance, that the Relevant Standards have been met, as a condition precedent to the receipt of the First Part B Tranche in the financial years 2013/14 and 2014/15; and

6.3.3 if applicable, that CRT shall deliver evidence to Defra on or before 1 July in the financial years 2022/23 to 2026/27 inclusive, in a form that provides reasonable and proportionate assurance, that the Relevant Standards have been met, as a condition precedent to the receipt of the Second Part B Tranche.

Well if they fail to meet these ( ? impossible targets), presumably the government will have to dissolve CRT  what then?

They could "privatise" , but that would that lose zillions in unpaid VAT  and subsidised wages and all the rest of the advantages of charitable status? I can't see any large organisation being created to deal with this ailing infrastructure with so few income streams, and the majority of user not paying a penny

Edited by LadyG
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4 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

With full retirement ever getting closer, 12-18 months  away, and planning to return to UK and CC on the canals I am wondering if there is any anticipated long term effect that C-19 may have either to the rules of constant cruising, the number of people either moving on to or off of the canals or the numbers and sales price of boats that may become available.

 

Would there be any difference to the socializing at locks etc. or any other likely changes?

 

Cheers Mick

Socialising at locks has been going tits up for several years now. More often than not we see boats waiting with full crew until we have completed the lock thing and then they appear. It used to be that somebody from every boat in the que was at the lock helping.

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Just now, LadyG said:

Well if they fail to meet these impossible targets, presumably the government will have to dissolve CRT  what then?

 

I have answered that previously.

 

But, C&RTs targets are not impossible and by moving the goal-posts and altering the methods they are currently all being achieved.

 

The number of visits to the canals is now running at  677,000,000 per annum, this number is required t increase every year and so far it has done.

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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have answered that previously.

 

But, C&RTs targets are not impossible and by moving the goal-posts and altering the methods they are currently all being achieved.

 

The number of visits to the canals is now running at  677,000,000 per annum, this number is required t increase every year and so far it has done.

I wonder, how many are paying?

How do the CRT propose getting them to pay?

It's quite bizzare how these figures are compiled, I am on the Chesterfield, in summer there were dozens of 'fishermen', and walkers, a few cyclists, but only on tarmacked paths, the muddy footpaths get a few hardy cyclists and dog walkers, kitted up for the job, but still not paying. They are never going to pay the real cost, the average man in the street goes nowhere near a towpath, he's not going to pay. Every charity seems to have a Donate button, I've never pressed one, I pay a few $ a month to keep one boater in diesel, and a few $ every year to charities, but not the CRT. I used to donate more small sums to several charities, but no longer, for various reasons, my charity well has run dry.

Edited by LadyG
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7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Socialising at locks has been going tits up for several years now. More often than not we see boats waiting with full crew until we have completed the lock thing and then they appear. It used to be that somebody from every boat in the que was at the lock helping.

We find that many people do still come and help. But there are exceptions.

   Last month we were going up Little Bourton lock and a boat arrived at the top, put a rope round a bollard and the two two crew just stood on their back deck and watched us. As I was opening the top gate I cheerily called out to them "Are you going through the lock?"

   The lady rather archly replied "That's why we usually wait at a lock landing".

My reply "Oh sorry, I thought you'd moored up to have your lunch" went right over her head.

 

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3 minutes ago, Athy said:

We find that many people do still come and help. But there are exceptions.

   Last month we were going up Little Bourton lock and a boat arrived at the top, put a rope round a bollard and the two two crew just stood on their back deck and watched us. As I was opening the top gate I cheerily called out to them "Are you going through the lock?"

   The lady rather archly replied "That's why we usually wait at a lock landing".

My reply "Oh sorry, I thought you'd moored up to have your lunch" went right over her head.

 

Yep, thats the kind!!

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9 minutes ago, Athy said:

We find that many people do still come and help. But there are exceptions.

   Last month we were going up Little Bourton lock and a boat arrived at the top, put a rope round a bollard and the two two crew just stood on their back deck and watched us. As I was opening the top gate I cheerily called out to them "Are you going through the lock?"

   The lady rather archly replied "That's why we usually wait at a lock landing".

My reply "Oh sorry, I thought you'd moored up to have your lunch" went right over her head.

 

I hope you closed the gates, as per CRT guidelines 

Edited by LadyG
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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have answered that previously.

 

But, C&RTs targets are not impossible and by moving the goal-posts and altering the methods they are currently all being achieved.

 

The number of visits to the canals is now running at  677,000,000 per annum, this number is required t increase every year and so far it has done.

Hmm, a slightly disingenuous figure. That's somewhere in the region of 11 visits per year by every man, woman and child in the UK . Maybe the figure claimed but how many was it simply a point on a route or something similar

Quote

 

  

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12 minutes ago, Slim said:

 Maybe the figure claimed but how many was it simply a point on a route or something similar

  

Does it matter?   If you were on your way from say home to the station and had time to spare, then wandered round a shop and out again without buying, you would count as having visited the shop.    You would count as you had been exposed to their wares and might return if the future knowing what they had on offer.   The same would apply to canals.

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36 minutes ago, Athy said:

We find that many people do still come and help. But there are exceptions.

   Last month we were going up Little Bourton lock and a boat arrived at the top, put a rope round a bollard and the two two crew just stood on their back deck and watched us. As I was opening the top gate I cheerily called out to them "Are you going through the lock?"

   The lady rather archly replied "That's why we usually wait at a lock landing".

My reply "Oh sorry, I thought you'd moored up to have your lunch" went right over her head.

 

I tend to hang back as there seems to be more people who don't like helpers, prefering one click at a time ;)

 

Edited by Loddon
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16 minutes ago, Slim said:

Hmm, a slightly disingenuous figure. That's somewhere in the region of 11 visits per year by every man, woman and child in the UK . Maybe the figure claimed but how many was it simply a point on a route or something similar

 

Moor in Birmingham city centre and count the number of school children walking the towpath from coach to Sea Life Centre. Count the crowds that queue along the towpath when some well known boy band is playing at the Arena. 

If you count those as visitors you can soon rack up some high numbers.

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1 hour ago, Athy said:

We find that many people do still come and help. But there are exceptions.

   Last month we were going up Little Bourton lock and a boat arrived at the top, put a rope round a bollard and the two two crew just stood on their back deck and watched us. As I was opening the top gate I cheerily called out to them "Are you going through the lock?"

   The lady rather archly replied "That's why we usually wait at a lock landing".

My reply "Oh sorry, I thought you'd moored up to have your lunch" went right over her head.

 

Personally I do not see any compulsion on a waiting boat to help out, even if it is nice when they do so but only if they really know what they are doing. In general we will help others if we are waiting but only to have something to do. Sometimes if there is a queue it can get to a case of too many cooks . . . 

 

If the person waiting has had bad experiences of 'helpers' then they may be reluctant to pitch in themselves.

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1 hour ago, Slim said:

Hmm, a slightly disingenuous figure. That's somewhere in the region of 11 visits per year by every man, woman and child in the UK . Maybe the figure claimed but how many was it simply a point on a route or something similar

  

Or another way of looking at it is that there are 38 people, for every hour, 24 hours per day, 365 days per year (come rain or shine) for EVERY mile of C&RT waterways., 

 

 

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