Bubble testers and other gas stuff

[starman]

I've just watched the videos linked to in an earlier thread about adapting a bubble tester to 3/8 pipe but I'm still a little puzzled. Do the 8mm and 10mm bubble testers have the same size end fittings (the ones that have to be removed and replaced)? I'm assuming not but the vids don't make that clear. If different, what ones do I need for a 10mm tester?

Next question, if I fit a bubble tester would  it be useful to have a manometer access point in the boat too or is that just an unnecessary extra fitting?

And finally, I will have a separate hob and oven so can the final connections beyond each isolation valve be made in braided hose?

All joints to be visible to the BSS inspector (some seem to be more picky than others in that regard I recall.)

 

Just adding an extra query: the gas pipe runs from the gas locker up front through the cratch, through the cabin bulkhead and into the boat. It's not a self draining well deck so obviously I have to be particulalrly careful how the pipe runs from the locker to the bulkhead. Is there an acceptable, gas tight bulkhead fitting I can use?

Edited October 29, 2020 by starman

[Chewbacka]

When I bought my Alde bubble tester 10 years ago, there was only one body, which came fitted with either 8mm or 10mm fittings.  If the pressure drop across the bubble tester is too great - if using a LOT of gas - then a bypass is fitted which can be shut-off when leak testing.

 

BSS check list will answer most of your other questions.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Chewbacka

[Machpoint005]

AFAIK you don't actually need a bubble tester if you have a manometer access point. It's one thing or the other as far as BSS is concerned.

[BEngo]

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

AFAIK you don't actually need a bubble tester if you have a manometer access point. It's one thing or the other as far as BSS is concerned.

This true.  Many modern appliances have a pressure test point somewhere though.

 

The advantage of having both is that with a bubble tester you can do a periodic leak check yourself easily and safely.   If you are a liveaboard then you do not need a registered Gas Safe with extra tickets Examiner for the BSS.  A manometer test point allows you to see what the actual gas pressure is, and thus see when the regulator is getting tired. ( But you need an LPG manometer).

On a typical boat sized system the manometer is also likely to be more sensitive, so will show the leak faster.

N

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

AFAIK you don't actually need a bubble tester if you have a manometer access point. It's one thing or the other as far as BSS is concerned.

But - if you are a liveaboard & do not have a bubble-tester then ONLY Gas safe engineers can test your boat which restricts the choice of examiners.

 

From the BSS :

 

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used primarily for residential or domestic purposes fall within scope of a piece of UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, the law demands that anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered.

As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of a screw nipple on a gas test point, the scope of the GSIUR includes carrying out BSS LPG tightness test.

Therefore, on a boat in scope of GSIUR, examiners who are not Gas Safe registered can only complete check 7.12.2 (confirming gas tightness) by either:

• undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble tester where fitted and correctly located; or,
• observing the tightness test conducted by a (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered installer

Where a BSS Examiner is also Gas Safe registered is undertaking a BSS Examination of a boat in scope of GSIUR such as if it is a boat used mainly for domestic/residential purposes, the Examiner could potentially identify safety-related LPG issues beyond the extent of the BSS Requirements. In doing so, they may feel duty-bound under their Gas Safe registration to report and discuss the additional issues.

Does a Bubble Tester do away with the need for a Gas Safe registered engineer testing the gas system on residential boats?

Yes, because any BSS Examiner can check for leaks using a fully functioning and appropriately located bubble tester. It is the case however that there is no BSS requirement for a bubble tester and so fitting one is matter of boat owner choice.

Note that all other types of gas work, such as adding or replacing an appliance, needs to be conducted by a Gas Safe registered engineer with the LPG boat competence listed on his/her identity card.

Is it recommended that boat owners fit a bubble tester?

Yes, fitting a bubble tester in the LPG cylinder locker is strongly recommended because it allows owners to check for leaks themselves and so enjoy piece of mind in between BSS Examinations. It is very important that fitting bubble testers on residential boats (and private leisure boats) is done by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

This is because the bubble tester must be correctly located and oriented, and for large volume LPG systems, the engineer may need to install a bypass arrangement to allow gas to flow past the bubble tester when it is not being used.

Are there any other alternatives to allow non Gas Safe registered BSS Examiners to check residential boat gas systems?

Unfortunately there are only two methods that can be used to check for gas leaks on boats (manometer leak check and bubble tester check). The only other alternative is for the non-Gas Safe registered BSS Examiner to observe a manometer leak check conducted by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

Note on the BSS Examination for non-private boats - If a vessel is a hire boat, third-party managed share-owned boat, trip boat, rented residential boat, floating business or some other form of commercial or public vessel, the boat will be examined to either the 2017 Hire Boat Requirements or 2002 BSS Standards as stipulated by the navigation authority registering your boat.

[GUMPY]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But - if you are a liveaboard & do not have a bubble-tester then ONLY Gas safe engineers can test your boat which restricts the choice of examiners.

Seems fine to me, rules out all the Examiners that  can't  be bothered  get fully qualified

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

25 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Seems fine to me, rules out all the Examiners that  can't  be bothered  get fully qualified

 

And pay the quite high annual fees which they then add some of to your bill ...

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

And pay the quite high annual fees which they then add some of to your bill ...

 

You would think so, but I have found all examiners are around the 'same price' irrespective of if they are qualified or not.

[Ex Brummie]

Whilst Bubble Testers show leaks, and apparently satisfy BSS requirements, there are tests for the performance of the regulator that it cannot do, but have as much relevance to safety as leak testing.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Whilst Bubble Testers show leaks, and apparently satisfy BSS requirements, there are tests for the performance of the regulator that it cannot do, but have as much relevance to safety as leak testing.

 

Who has suggested that holding a BSSC makes 'a safe boat' ?

It is simply a document that allows you to apply for a licence (the fee for the BSSC goes to the provider of the licence anyway).

Edited October 29, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Ex Brummie]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Who has suggested that holding a BSSC makes 'a safe boat' ?

It is simply a document that allows you to apply for a licence (the fee for which goes to the provider of the licence anyway).

I am suggesting that bubble testers are not really a substitute for ensuring a gas safe boat. Many examiners will perform a drop test, but a registered gas technician will carry out other tests of the integrity of a regulator, such as pass by and pressure drop at lower pressures,, which will identify dangerous conditions. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Ex Brummie

[MoominPapa]

7 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Whilst Bubble Testers show leaks, and apparently satisfy BSS requirements, there are tests for the performance of the regulator that it cannot do, but have as much relevance to safety as leak testing.

Our latest BSS test (with a manometer) revealed that the regulator pressure had dropped from 37mbar to 33mbar. Whilst not a BSS fail, this is useful information and on replacing the regulator, the appliances work much better. It's amazing that we'd not noticed how long it was taking to boil the kettle or make a piece of toast.

 

MP.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

I am suggesting that bubble testers are not really a substitute for ensuring a gas safe boat

And, I am agreeing with you, and also adding that a BSSC does not a safe boat make in areas in addition to Gas.

[Machpoint005]

55 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

Our latest BSS test (with a manometer) revealed that the regulator pressure had dropped from 37mbar to 33mbar. Whilst not a BSS fail, this is useful information and on replacing the regulator, the appliances work much better. It's amazing that we'd not noticed how long it was taking to boil the kettle or make a piece of toast.

 

MP.

 

Our latest BSS test (also with a manometer) revealed that there was effectively zero leakage from the system. The examiner did the test again to make sure the line had been switched on everywhere (it had)! Of course, the "system" consists only of a single gas line from the bottle to the cooker.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

And pay the quite high annual fees which they then add some of to your bill ...

My Gas safe BSC Examiner was reasonable, did the exam, sorted the advisories, re-installled the cooker to comply, some other minor work I wanted, labour £100, which I felt was reasonable, plus £160 for exam and Certificate. Three hours in all.

The previous BSC Examiner insisted I must have a bubble tester as I am liveaboard (his interpretation),  He had passed it previously, and I was not happy about that!

Edited October 29, 2020 by LadyG

[Machpoint005]

As a consultancy client said to me about 40 years ago, if you want a monkey, pay peanuts.

[Murflynn]

5 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

As a consultancy client said to me about 40 years ago, if you want a monkey, pay peanuts.

that doesn't explain why he hired you.  

[Iain_S]

2 hours ago, Loddon said:

Seems fine to me, rules out all the Examiners that  can't  be bothered  get fully qualified

 

 

It’s not always a question of “can’t be bothered”. It costs. We used to have a bloke who was qualified to work with gas on boats : he was a caravan fitter, and for gas qualification had to do the full gas fitter course (qualifying him to work commercially as a gas fitter), followed by the lpg course, which allowed him to work on caravans, followed by the marine part, which he only did because he fancied another night in his hotel. He has since retired, and we do not have a local boat qualified gas bod. The hire fleets import a gas qualified examiner and put him up in a hotel ; liveaboards fit a bubble tester.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Iain_S

[ditchcrawler]

26 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

The previous BSC Examiner insisted I must have a bubble tester as I am liveaboard (his interpretation),  He had passed it previously, and I was not happy about that!

But was it used as a live aboard 4 years ago, or did the owner just say I don't live on it. (he wouldn't be the first)

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

But was it used as a live aboard 4 years ago, or did the owner just say I don't live on it. (he wouldn't be the first)

There was a regular BSS examiner who was the 'go to guy' for the majority of liveaboards in the marina we were in.

 

He was not qualified to do liveaboard, non-bubble tester boats so it was agreed that the owners would be out shopping when he came so he wouldn't know (or couldn't ask them) about being liveaboards.

 

After all, all they wanted was a 'certificate' giving them permission to apply for a licence. The certificate on its own was just a meaningless expense.

[Machpoint005]

Just as a matter of interest, do we know whether the OP is a liveaboard?

 

 

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

that doesn't explain why he hired you.  

 

Because I was a good salesman, I expect.

[starman]

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

Just as a matter of interest, do we know whether the OP is a liveaboard?

 

 

I’m not so strictly speaking the rules are easier. 

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, starman said:

I’m not so strictly speaking the rules are easier. 

But you may become one once you are on the water again ?

[LadyG]

On 29/10/2020 at 16:09, ditchcrawler said:

But was it used as a live aboard 4 years ago, or did the owner just say I don't live on it. (he wouldn't be the first)

That is not the reason I re-callled him, it was 'cos I saw several fails in the gas installation, one does not need to be gas Safe to know that the gas locker should only drain to the outside, that it should not connect to the cabin and that piping should be supported.

His requirement that I fit a bubble tester was because he was not GasSafe qualified. I persevered with my questions as I considered a bubble tester fitted would mean more joints, and as it was inside the gas locker it would not be constantly monitored, and it would be possible to knock it (eg when changing cylinders or removing anchor). I would only have a Gas Safe fitter to fit a bubble tester, and I might as well get him to do the BSC as well.

I do not agree a bubble tester is needed for a liveaboard, if anything it would be more relevant to a casual user who might turn off gas at bottle when leaving the boat, so would look at bubble when returning to the boat. Gas explosions have occurred on boats fitted with offshore racing and training requirements ie gas alarm, self draining gas lockers The explosions are more likely to occur when boat has not been occupied and a pool of gas has accumulated inside the boat, a spark eg from ignition sets off the explosion, whereas on a liveaboard boat the owner is coninuously monitoring any changes, and would probably smell the gas before it found its way in to the bilges. I always gave the manual bilge pump on my yacht a few strokes every day, this would remove water and gas lying in the bilge, a proper boat has a bilge designed to entrap water, and to some extent gas. The narrowboat bilge is not going to do that but my own personal safety is important to me?‍?

Edited November 1, 2020 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

That is not the reason I re-callled him, it was 'cos I saw several fails in the gas installation, one does not need to be gas Safe to know that the gas locker should only drain to the outside, that it should not connect to the cabin and that piping should be supported.

 

I am surprised that your pre purchase survey didn't pick that up